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The One Ring Forums: Tolkien Topics: Movie Discussion: The Hobbit:
Changes or mis-information in Visual Guide?
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Eleniel
Grey Havens


Nov 17 2012, 5:35pm

Post #1 of 37 (1206 views)
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Changes or mis-information in Visual Guide? Can't Post

Just purchased Jude Fisher's Visual Guide today and have been leafing through it... Some deliberate changes are leaping out at me, along with some statements that may be errors, particularly where there are contradictions.

Not sure if this has been mentioned, but Ori is definitely now being portrayed as the youngest of the Dwarves - this is stated in both the bios on Fili & Kili and Ori.

Thorin's bio tells us correctly that when Smaug came to Erebor, King Thror, his son Thrain and a few survivors escaped via the secret door, But it goes on to say that that Thorin's father Thrain "vanished in the dark halls of Khazad-dum," and in Balin's write-up it says that "he also accompanied Thrain on the doomed expedition to regain the kingdom of Khazad-dum, when his king was captured by Goblins and lost to his people."

Has Fisher just got confused or has Jackson changed events completely???


"Choosing Trust over Doubt gets me burned once in a while, but I'd rather be singed than hardened."
¯ Victoria Monfort






(This post was edited by Eleniel on Nov 17 2012, 5:41pm)


DanielLB
Immortal


Nov 17 2012, 5:47pm

Post #2 of 37 (576 views)
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I can't check at the moment [In reply to] Can't Post

But what context are the sentences regarding their ages, Eleniel?

Ori is the youngest of the 3 brothers, but can't remember if it explicitly says of the company?

Smile

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chris10112
Bree

Nov 17 2012, 5:47pm

Post #3 of 37 (557 views)
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Hobbit background? [In reply to] Can't Post

I expect it's supposed to regard events prior to the Hobbit. Rather than Thrain just going missing one day and taken to Dol Guldur, he tried to take Moria (a disaster from which Balin escaped) and was captured by Sauron's agents.

A minor change.


Captain Salt
Tol Eressea


Nov 17 2012, 6:01pm

Post #4 of 37 (535 views)
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Yes, weird that Ori who seems to be the youngest has more of a beard than Kili... [In reply to] Can't Post

who's apparently older.

BTW, if the visual guide is correct, it seems that the sequence of events is:

-Battle of Azanulbizar
-Thrain and Balin enter Moria, Thrain captured, Balin escapes
-Thrain later turns up at Dol Guldur as a zombie/possessed creep

Have no idea what this means for the fate of Thror, though it still seems likely that he's going to be slain by Azog who in turn will be slain by Thorin at Azanulbizar. Don't know why they've made these changes to the mythos concerning Thrain, seeing as they seem more convoluted, not less.

My Top 5 Wish List for "The Hobbit"
5. Legolas will surf down Smaug's neck
4. Bilbo will be revealed to a Robot
3. Naked PJ cameo as Ghan-Buri-Ghan
2. Use of not only 3D, but smell-o-vision, plus the inclusion of axes coming out of the seats and poking the audience when appropriate
1. Not only keep the claim that Thorin & Co. ran amok in Mirkwood "molesting people", but depict said incident in vivid detail!!!!!


Jago M
Bree

Nov 17 2012, 6:08pm

Post #5 of 37 (551 views)
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Birthdate Ori is not known [In reply to] Can't Post

"However, in Bilbo Baggins' account of the quest to Erebor, it was said that the brothers Fíli and Kíli were the youngest of the thirteen "by some fifty years"[4] and that after Thorin had been captured, Balin was "the eldest left".[5] Since Fíli was born in T.A. 2859 and Balin was born in 2763,[3] this would put Ori's birth between 2809 and 2763, and he would have been between 132 and 178 years old during the quest to Erebor."

this is from the Tokien Gateway-website


Eleniel
Grey Havens


Nov 17 2012, 6:11pm

Post #6 of 37 (562 views)
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Ori's bio reads [In reply to] Can't Post

"Ori is the youngest and least experienced of all of The Company of Thorin Oakenshield; a gentle, sweet-natured Dwarf who has never travelled anywhere before, and never seen a Goblin let alone a terrifying dragon (except maybe in books)."

Fili & Kili's write-up begins "After Ori, by far the youngest Dwarves in The Company of Thorin Oakenshield are Fili and Kili, the sons of his sister, Dis, daughter of Thrain."


"Choosing Trust over Doubt gets me burned once in a while, but I'd rather be singed than hardened."
¯ Victoria Monfort






DanielLB
Immortal


Nov 17 2012, 6:18pm

Post #7 of 37 (525 views)
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Not sure their conclusion is very good ... [In reply to] Can't Post

If Fili and Kili are the youngest by "some 50" years, doesn't that mean Ori would be between 132 and 142?

No?

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Eleniel
Grey Havens


Nov 17 2012, 6:19pm

Post #8 of 37 (508 views)
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Yes, but Thrain doesn't just go missing one day from Moria... [In reply to] Can't Post

He broods over the lost riches of Erebor and deliberately sets out to return to Erebor with a few followers, having decided to use his father's map and key. He then goes missing during the trip through Mirkwood. Surely this background detail would be beneficial to Jackson, helping to illustrate the curse of the 7 Dwarven Rings Sauron gave them, and/or the Dragon sickness?


"Choosing Trust over Doubt gets me burned once in a while, but I'd rather be singed than hardened."
¯ Victoria Monfort






DanielLB
Immortal


Nov 17 2012, 6:23pm

Post #9 of 37 (503 views)
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Thank you :-) [In reply to] Can't Post

Yes, it certainly looks like they've changed the ages. Which, like most changes, doesn't make much sense.

There's no need for Ori to be the youngest. Then again, it probably won't even be stated in the films - this could just be additional information for the movie-universe.

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imin
Valinor


Nov 17 2012, 6:33pm

Post #10 of 37 (466 views)
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feels like changes have been made for no reason other than to make changes [In reply to] Can't Post

As you say there is no reason for Ori to be the youngest, but then i guess it doesnt really matter but at the same time why bother changing? lol.

When he was talking about the lettuce he said it in an extremely child-like way, something i hope we will see change in him as the movie (or trilogy) progresses as i dont want him to sound like he is about 5 years old.


Jago M
Bree

Nov 17 2012, 6:34pm

Post #11 of 37 (463 views)
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no, the calculation is correct [In reply to] Can't Post

Only a rather difficult way of guessing his age :)

This is also true for every dwarf in the company, so if we know ori is the youngest of the brothers, it means he probably is closer to 132 than he is to 178


Eleniel
Grey Havens


Nov 17 2012, 6:36pm

Post #12 of 37 (462 views)
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I wouldn't be so sure... [In reply to] Can't Post

I think it pretty likely that Ori is going to be portrayed as the naive, wet-behind-the-ears youngest of the group...

And I can't help it, it niggles the way these deliberate alterations to The Hobbit canon are published as "fact" in the same way purists bemoan that millions of people who only see the LotR films believe PJ's version is canon!

Oh, and btw, remember Boyen's erstwhile quote about Galadriel? In Fisher's book it is stated

Quote
"...she is the mightiest of all the Elves who remain in Middle-earth and is possessed with the gift of foresight. She wears Nenya, the Ring of Adamant, or the Ring of Water, one of the three great Elven Rings of Power, and armed with this Galadriel may be a match for even the worst evil that walks abroad."



"Choosing Trust over Doubt gets me burned once in a while, but I'd rather be singed than hardened."
¯ Victoria Monfort






Seaber
Rivendell

Nov 17 2012, 6:38pm

Post #13 of 37 (467 views)
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Justifications for the age change [In reply to] Can't Post

Ori needs to be the youngest for his innocent and inexperienced persona to work.

Kili and Fili are young and agile, but have experience with weapons etc.


DanielLB
Immortal


Nov 17 2012, 6:38pm

Post #14 of 37 (457 views)
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But Tolkien says some 50 years [In reply to] Can't Post

That's anywhere between 50-59. Not 60 years +.

Otherwise Tolkien would've said some 60/70/80 years.

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DanielLB
Immortal


Nov 17 2012, 6:40pm

Post #15 of 37 (426 views)
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That can still be the case - it doesn't justify changing the ages. / [In reply to] Can't Post

 

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Voronwë_the_Faithful
Valinor

Nov 17 2012, 6:45pm

Post #16 of 37 (462 views)
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I noted all of this today, as well [In reply to] Can't Post

The age change doesn't bother me that much, but the change in Thrain's backstory makes no sense to me. Hopefully either she has it wrong, or it will make more sense in context. On the hand, ALITTTFOTR.

'But very bright were the stars upon the margin of the world, when at times the clouds about the West were drawn aside.'

The Hall of Fire


GothmogTheBalrog
Rivendell


Nov 17 2012, 6:48pm

Post #17 of 37 (430 views)
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What's ALITTTFOTR? [In reply to] Can't Post

I don't think that the ages needed to be changed. Doesn't make sense to me.

"It was like a great shadow, in the middle of which was a dark form, of man shape maybe, yet greater; and a power and terror seemed to be in it and go before it." ~FotR


Eleniel
Grey Havens


Nov 17 2012, 6:56pm

Post #18 of 37 (465 views)
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Hey, VtF, did you also notice (SPOILERS) [In reply to] Can't Post

the detail about the Goblin King's bullfrog throat that lets the air go whistling through holes in his rancid skin? (also confirms that he sings!)

And the approach Jackson seems to be taking on the background for the Orcs? It seems they are going along with the "Orcs were once captured Elves tortured by an evil power" theory.


Quote

"Thus reduced to hideous, vicious creatures, their only delght in life is to inflict pain and terror on others, as if to echo the torments their kind endured in a bygone age, even though no Orc honours or even owns that memory. "



So that explains "Bolg the torturer" and what to expect in Dol Guldur, then...


"Choosing Trust over Doubt gets me burned once in a while, but I'd rather be singed than hardened."
¯ Victoria Monfort






(This post was edited by Eleniel on Nov 17 2012, 6:57pm)


gar-mogoth
The Shire

Nov 17 2012, 6:59pm

Post #19 of 37 (429 views)
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Age changing doesn't matter [In reply to] Can't Post

But why the Thrain change? Why reclaiming Moria instead of Eerebor? Why would he have Key and map of Erebor for Moria regaining expedition? And if he doesn't have it with himself, where would Gandalf get it from?


Jago M
Bree

Nov 17 2012, 7:01pm

Post #20 of 37 (412 views)
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You made me double-check, but [In reply to] Can't Post

Fili : 2859 (youngest)

2859 - 50 = 2809 (--> the 50 some years)
2859 - 59 = 2800

Balin : 2763 (oldest)

Quest of Erebor = 2941

From 2763 till 2941 is 178 years
from 2800 till 2941 is 141 years
from 2809 till 2941 is 132 years

so between 132 and 178 is correct


AinurOlorin
Half-elven


Nov 17 2012, 7:03pm

Post #21 of 37 (422 views)
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But in the actual account, Thrain didn't just go missing one day. It is actually a very creepy tale [In reply to] Can't Post

Of who he and his companions, setting out for Erebor, were pursued by evil wargs and wicked birds, and by ill fortunes, throughout wilderland, until a fierce storm forced them to camp under the trees of Mirkwood. . . and that in the morning, Thrain was gone. It is a much more errie tale, though I will admit, Khazad-Dum was always intriguing as long as a Balrog held dominion there.

In Reply To
I expect it's supposed to regard events prior to the Hobbit. Rather than Thrain just going missing one day and taken to Dol Guldur, he tried to take Moria (a disaster from which Balin escaped) and was captured by Sauron's agents.

A minor change.


"Hear me, hounds of Sauron, Gandalf is here! Fly if you value your foul skins, I will shrivel you from tail to snout if you step within this circle!"

"Do not be to eager to deal out death in judgement. Even the very wise cannot see all ends."


Jago M
Bree

Nov 17 2012, 7:08pm

Post #22 of 37 (387 views)
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But i have to add [In reply to] Can't Post

although Tolkien says Fili is the youngest, he gives Kili in de appendixes the youngest birthdate, 2864.
So the calculation should have been done with Kili's birthdate, but here they used Fili's birthdate to start calculating.
So beter would be between 127 and 178


I'm sorry but I had to make this calculation, I think it's OCD related ;)


DanielLB
Immortal


Nov 17 2012, 7:08pm

Post #23 of 37 (407 views)
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It might be because I'm tired, but ... [In reply to] Can't Post

You've lost me completely. I don't get how Ori could be 178 years old, if Fili was some 50 years younger (and yet be 82 during the Quest). The maths doesn't add up to me.

I think we agree, however, Ori is closer to 132 than 178.

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(This post was edited by DanielLB on Nov 17 2012, 7:13pm)


AinurOlorin
Half-elven


Nov 17 2012, 7:10pm

Post #24 of 37 (415 views)
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Thrain entering so soon after the battle of Azanalbizar would seem to fly in the face [In reply to] Can't Post

of the textual history, in which Dain, after glimpsing the terror of The Balrog, explicitly tells Thrain those famous lines, "you are the father of our folk. We have bled for you, and will again. But we will not enter Khazad-Dum. YOU will not enter Khazad-Dum. . .I have glimpsed beyond the shadow of The Gate. Beyond the shadow It waits for you still: Durin's Bane. The World must change, and some other power than that of the Dwarves must come before Durin's folk walk again in Moria." Also, some of the most EPIC foreshadowing EVER of Gandalf's coming confrontation with the other Maia.

In Reply To
who's apparently older.

BTW, if the visual guide is correct, it seems that the sequence of events is:

-Battle of Azanulbizar
-Thrain and Balin enter Moria, Thrain captured, Balin escapes
-Thrain later turns up at Dol Guldur as a zombie/possessed creep

Have no idea what this means for the fate of Thror, though it still seems likely that he's going to be slain by Azog who in turn will be slain by Thorin at Azanulbizar. Don't know why they've made these changes to the mythos concerning Thrain, seeing as they seem more convoluted, not less.


"Hear me, hounds of Sauron, Gandalf is here! Fly if you value your foul skins, I will shrivel you from tail to snout if you step within this circle!"

"Do not be to eager to deal out death in judgement. Even the very wise cannot see all ends."


AinurOlorin
Half-elven


Nov 17 2012, 7:20pm

Post #25 of 37 (382 views)
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I am one of those "purists" though less extreme than many Lol. At least the Visual Companion does say Galadriel is the mightiest ELF [In reply to] Can't Post

remaining in Middle Earth, which is fair and true enough. Even Glorfindel was not as mighty as Galadriel at her zenith. Only Feanor is said to have been greater. What the book thankfully doesn't say, and what most, myself included, who were outraged by M.s Boyens comment objected to, was her casually claiming that Galadriel was THE single most powerful being in Middle-Earth at the time, which suggested that, without any test for proof, she was mightier than any of The Five Wizards, Gandalf and Saruman included, mightier than The Balrog of Moria, mightier than Sauron, and mightier than Old Bombadil. . . in short, mightier than any of the residing Maia, whatever their incarnations. That seemed like too strong an assertion. If Phillipa had said "mightiest Elf" at the time, few if any hackles would have raised.

In Reply To
I think it pretty likely that Ori is going to be portrayed as the naive, wet-behind-the-ears youngest of the group...

And I can't help it, it niggles the way these deliberate alterations to The Hobbit canon are published as "fact" in the same way purists bemoan that millions of people who only see the LotR films believe PJ's version is canon!

Oh, and btw, remember Boyen's erstwhile quote about Galadriel? In Fisher's book it is stated

Quote
"...she is the mightiest of all the Elves who remain in Middle-earth and is possessed with the gift of foresight. She wears Nenya, the Ring of Adamant, or the Ring of Water, one of the three great Elven Rings of Power, and armed with this Galadriel may be a match for even the worst evil that walks abroad."



"Hear me, hounds of Sauron, Gandalf is here! Fly if you value your foul skins, I will shrivel you from tail to snout if you step within this circle!"

"Do not be to eager to deal out death in judgement. Even the very wise cannot see all ends."

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