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The One Ring Forums: Tolkien Topics: Movie Discussion: The Hobbit:
source material


Nov 15 2012, 5:01pm

Post #1 of 19 (1006 views)
source material Can't Post

at best theres probably a few paragraphs in the lotr appendices and hobbit book regarding the 'other stories' in the quest for erebor!

do you think this is enough to go on, considering he may not be able to tap into unfinished tales/silmarillion/history of middle earth info due to them not having film rights for these books?

for quickbeam often laughed, he laughed if the sun came out from behind a cloud, he laughed if they came upon a stream or spring:

(This post was edited by jimmyfenn on Nov 15 2012, 5:03pm)


Nov 15 2012, 5:08pm

Post #2 of 19 (593 views)
No, he's not using that material. [In reply to] Can't Post

Done, end of story. Books beyond The Hobbit and Lord of the Rings still belong to the Tolkien estate and likely aren't going to have their rights sold off any time soon. PJ & Co. must instead infer their own material to fill in the gaps, which may frighten people, but given how everyone seems to be clamoring for more Middle-Earth no matter what their handed I think one should suck it up. Just because one can create vastly epic stories in their head about tiny passages doesn't mean it somehow just magically translates to screen with no one else getting upset.


Nov 15 2012, 5:15pm

Post #3 of 19 (565 views)
must be a headache [In reply to] Can't Post

must be a headache sorting out the legalities of the story, if they mention something from the unfinished tales not in the hobbit say, they may get sued!

im pretty sure theyll be some kind of lawsuit from the tolkien estate.

though peter jackson is a great film maker , he is not tolkien and it scares me what there 'making up'

ill never forgive some of the decisions made in lotr film , its like making up new bits for the bible, and thats dangerous lol

for quickbeam often laughed, he laughed if the sun came out from behind a cloud, he laughed if they came upon a stream or spring:

Tol Eressea

Nov 15 2012, 5:22pm

Post #4 of 19 (553 views)
Other than LOTR and the Hobbit [In reply to] Can't Post

no other of Tolkien's work can be used by Peter Jackson, and no I don't think there is enough to go on in the appendices to base major chunks of film on. Since that material is vague and open to ones own interpretation. But then again this is Peter Jackson's vision of the Hobbit and NOT Tolkien's Wink

I find it humorous how many people are buying into the appendices statements because its exactly like you said a few paragraphs here and there with no specifics and at most 11 or 12 (8and a half being about the dwarves) pages total out of the supposed 125 pages that are being claimed to be related to the Hobbit. Maybe its just people being optimistic or hopeful instead of realistic. But as vague as the appendices are the material will be strictly made up non Tolkien material.

Whether its any good or not has yet to be seen and will be personal reference anyways.. So who knows the fan fiction included might be alright we'll find out in less than a month Smile


Nov 15 2012, 5:28pm

Post #5 of 19 (564 views)
The thing about the legal stuff thats troubling [In reply to] Can't Post

is in some sources, UT for examlpe we get an explanation from Gandalf of how he set up the meeting at Bag End, we get the conversation between Gandalf and Thorin about the dwarf plans and wishes to retake Erebor, and we get the reason why Gandalf choose Bilbo- now PJ is including these things in his version but as he does not have the rights to UT he has to avoid getting sued, so he has to make up something which is definelty NOT what Tolkien actually wrote, or anything to similar to it to avoid being sued.


Nov 15 2012, 5:32pm

Post #6 of 19 (510 views)
Or he could just use it anyway [In reply to] Can't Post

I wouldn't be surprised if PJ&Co end up using The Quest for Erebor as a source and just try to find sources within The Hobbit and LOTR to justifiy it. I also wouldn't be surprised of the Tolkien Estate files a lawsuit, though it'd be ironic that they'd be filing a suit because the movie too closely matches Tolkien's vision.

all we have to decide is what to do with the time that is given us...


Nov 15 2012, 5:33pm

Post #7 of 19 (496 views)
excited [In reply to] Can't Post

slightly off topic but do you think well get to see sauron take the last hobbit ring in dol guldors dungeons ? in appendices i think, and i think that was way before the quest, but it would be a good image.

for quickbeam often laughed, he laughed if the sun came out from behind a cloud, he laughed if they came upon a stream or spring:

Lacrimae Rerum
Grey Havens

Nov 15 2012, 5:37pm

Post #8 of 19 (506 views)
Ha - are you thinking of any particular bible? [In reply to] Can't Post

As a model of singular and unchanging texts it may not be the best example.



Nov 15 2012, 5:41pm

Post #9 of 19 (502 views)
It is a bit mad indeed [In reply to] Can't Post

if however the legalities force PJ into not being able to use anything which resembles anythng in the Quest for Erebor then he will have to make up something which is not like it! In which case I would question the wisdom and reasoning in trying to bring those elements into the films at all.
Its going to be very strange if an adaptation of a Tolkien book has to avoid resembling what Tolkien wrote!

Tol Eressea

Nov 15 2012, 5:50pm

Post #10 of 19 (501 views)
I don't think it would be because it was too close to JRR Tolkien's vision [In reply to] Can't Post

I think its more the fact that the material contained within UT is off limits and without that Jackson couldn't "EXPAND" the Hobbit into what he is expanding it into. Jackson is adapting the Hobbit not "the Quest for Erobor", Tolkien sold the rights to LOTR and the Hobbit so IMO that's what Jackson should stick to. Nothing more... Not saying I don't want more middle earth, I do, but I want the stories to at least follow the books they have permission to use, as closely as possible with minor tweaking to make them work on film. Not go off on some wild, made up tangent because you think it would look cool, even though it goes against Tolkien's writings. Or just make up things taking the story Tolkien wrote out of context. Tolkien didn't make the ring in the Hobbit into the "one ring" for a reason even after his attempted rewrite. To give the reader something to look forward to in LOTR. The same IMO should be done in the film.

I personally can see the Tolkien estate looking closely at what is shown in these films and honestly if Jackson steps over the line of the material he is allowed to use I hope the Tolkien estate gets what is owed to them. After all if it weren't for JRR Tolkien these stories that Jackson is portraying wouldn't even exist.Wink


Nov 15 2012, 6:09pm

Post #11 of 19 (479 views)
There isn't really enough to go on [In reply to] Can't Post

even if you where only doing a film of the book. The Hobbit is a rather sparse text, little more than an outline with poems.

A Far Dragon is the best kind...


Nov 15 2012, 6:21pm

Post #12 of 19 (449 views)
Yeah, dialogue sucks [In reply to] Can't Post

I really hate hearing whole conversations and having character moments in movies. That's why I prefer bedtime stories like the hobbit, which has maybe 15 fleshed out conversations in it's entirety. Crazy

Yes, Jackson is filming lots of non-Hobbit Tolkien that takes place during the Hobbit. That's whats really going to push the story from 2 films to 3.

But a huge HUGE reason the Hobbit movie will be so much "longer" than the book is because Jackson will actually have dialogue and character development. because in real life, if you went on a backpacking trip with 14 people for a year, you'd probably get to know them pretty well, and no only have conversations with spiders, dragons, and creepy cave people.

"There are no safe paths in this part of the world. Remember you are over the Edge of the Wild, and in for all sorts of fun wherever you go."

Welsh hero

Nov 15 2012, 6:21pm

Post #13 of 19 (459 views)
He can use anything mentioned in the appendacies [In reply to] Can't Post

Gandalf's meeting with thorin is mentioned in the LOTR appendacies


Twitter: @IrfonPennant
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Tol Eressea

Nov 15 2012, 6:26pm

Post #14 of 19 (458 views)
Thats what a whole sentence in the appendices? [In reply to] Can't Post

there are no real specifics in the appendices when it comes to the material Jackson is expanding, so IMO its pretty much made up by Jackson based on almost nothing


Nov 15 2012, 7:44pm

Post #15 of 19 (405 views)
Like it or not [In reply to] Can't Post

There are millions that hunger for all things Middle Earth. If not, aside from the success of the Tolkien Estate publishing incomplete writings and essays in the various volumes of the HoME there wouldn't have been cartoons, movies and numerous variations or role playing games, video games, and online games. To his grand credit, Tolkien created such a vibrant tapestry and realness to the world and history behind the stories that many people have a strong desire to immerse themselves in it.

So from a both a demand for material and the commercial viability of it, we have all the stuff in various medium outside the original literary text. You may not like PJ's vision but there likely would have been somebody else come a long in his place, maybe GDT or someone else. The demand likely would have driven more that just straight adaptations and because Tolkien created a world that people like to feel is so darn real, extra material as interpreted by the adapter would have likely been a reality whether it was PJ or someone else. Again because Tolkien did such a great job in making his work have a cult following, many people want it and more. Not all, you obviously don't feel that way but I think as in anything the majority holds sway and the reality is that if he keep the narrative of the story intact and produce ancillary material that feels like Middle Earth whether it is scenes or events not explicitly described or other material with some basis in Middle Earth history tied to the protagonists of the story, the majority will be merrier with more.

You can be a martyr for the Tolkien estate or elect to vote with your pocket book and of course continue to scratch your head at those that support more vs less and vent and the insanity of it all. Free world and board but just keep in mind that just as many or more scratch the head with opposite points of view.

(This post was edited by BeornBerserker on Nov 15 2012, 7:51pm)

General Ceel
Registered User

Nov 15 2012, 8:33pm

Post #16 of 19 (377 views)
RE: Thats what a whole sentence in the appendices? [In reply to] Can't Post

In Reply To
Thats what a whole sentence in the appendices? there are no real specifics in the appendices when it comes to the material Jackson is expanding, so IMO its pretty much made up by Jackson based on almost nothing

Lucky us and lucky Jackson, because if we're being honest here... much of Tolkien's main text is that way too, the Lord of the Rings and Silmarrilion included. The Return of the King is especially "compressed" at times. What would take current bestselling fantasy authors volumes to tell, Tolkien covers in a few sentences. Even The Hobbit is deceptively dense. Few notice it because the prose is so light and airy.

The trilogy worked on film because Jackson captured the thematic and visual spirit of Tolkien. Movies show, rather than tell…. Tolkien was a notorious teller. His writing style was more like a chronicle than a novel. Imagine that he was reporting on what happened in middle-earth.

Films are visual and have different dramatic needs. Jackson can’t just tell us what happens. He has to show what happens between the Tolkien’s lines. Most of us accepted Jackson’s movie trilogy because the very necessary “made up” moments performed the function of revealing the character of the characters.

You can’t just “stick to Tolkien” because Tolkien doesn’t always provide an eye to eye view of (enough) events, and in such a way as to provide all the pieces for an effective modern script.. The point being that Tolkien could write “They fought and won,” but Jackson has to show how they got into the situation, show the fight, give each character something to do and something to say and so on…


Nov 15 2012, 9:47pm

Post #17 of 19 (338 views)
hmmm [In reply to] Can't Post

i have no doubt the new trilogy will be great fun and i really dont have a problem with them being made.

im just concerned about the actual storys that tolkien created, like what christopher tolkien is fighting to keep alive, not just an action movie for 15-25 year olds.

lotr was different, the info was all there, lots of description , lots of actual story and lots fo actual things characters say, in fact too much , which is why lots were missing from 3 very long films!

the hobbit is the complete opposite, a short kids book,and to make 3 similar styled films from that will mean inventing a whole lot. apart from a timeline for the other stuff theres no writing as such to rely on, which means a degradation of the tolkien world, IMO . not that it matters as its just a film lol ill still have the book.

for quickbeam often laughed, he laughed if the sun came out from behind a cloud, he laughed if they came upon a stream or spring:


Nov 16 2012, 8:25am

Post #18 of 19 (281 views)
The books will always be there [In reply to] Can't Post

And will probably survive long after these PJ's adaptations, and others yet to come, have been forgotten.

A Far Dragon is the best kind...


Nov 16 2012, 4:52pm

Post #19 of 19 (344 views)
The thing about "The Quest of Erebor" [In reply to] Can't Post

"The Quest of Erebor" from Unfinished Tales is just an earlier version of the last few pages of Appendix A as told from Gandalf's point of view. There is little there that is not said (or at least implied) in the final, published version from Appendix A. Jackson is probably on solid ground in this case.

'There are older and fouler things than Orcs in the deep places of the world.' - Gandalf the Grey, The Fellowship of the Ring


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