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The One Ring Forums: Tolkien Topics: Movie Discussion: The Hobbit:
Gandalf knowing the history of Smeagol.
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Bryan
Bree

Nov 15 2012, 2:00am

Post #1 of 37 (1244 views)
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Gandalf knowing the history of Smeagol. Can't Post

In the mines of Moria, Gandalf said "Smeagol's life is a sad story."
This is an excellent opportunity to connect film 1 of each trilogy.
But how does Gandalf come to know any of it?


Ardamírë
Valinor


Nov 15 2012, 2:05am

Post #2 of 37 (818 views)
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According to the book [In reply to] Can't Post

He found out when he spoke with Gollum while he was held captive in Mirkwood. This was in the years between Bilbo's 111th birthday, and Frodo's leaving the Shire.

In the movie...I have no idea.

"...and his first memory of Middle-earth was the green stone above her breast as she sang above his cradle while Gondolin was still in flower." -Unfinished Tales


Bryan
Bree

Nov 15 2012, 2:11am

Post #3 of 37 (706 views)
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That's right. [In reply to] Can't Post

The hunt for Gollum. Too bad. I don't imagine that has a place in The Hobbit trilogy.


Mooseboy018
Grey Havens


Nov 15 2012, 2:29am

Post #4 of 37 (702 views)
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It's kind of messed up in the movie. [In reply to] Can't Post

Based on what people said about the footage at Comic Com, Gollum refers to himself as Smeagol, which pretty much contradicts the whole Smeagol forgetting his name thing they made up for the LotR movies.

So I guess in the movie universe Gandalf could have either learned from Bilbo or Gollum himself. But I'm guessing Bilbo told him, and that Gollum forgot about his past (again) after the mental trauma of losing the Ring.


totoro
Lorien

Nov 15 2012, 2:47am

Post #5 of 37 (641 views)
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Gollum refers to himself as Smeagol in TH? Really? nt [In reply to] Can't Post

 


totoro
Lorien

Nov 15 2012, 2:48am

Post #6 of 37 (618 views)
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I guess he forgot between TH and FOTR... nt [In reply to] Can't Post

 


Mooseboy018
Grey Havens


Nov 15 2012, 2:59am

Post #7 of 37 (631 views)
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I assume. [In reply to] Can't Post

That's what people have said.


Ereinion Nénharma
Lorien

Nov 15 2012, 8:04am

Post #8 of 37 (550 views)
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It's a bit strange in the movie... [In reply to] Can't Post

because Gandalf knows a lot about Smeàgol, some things that Bilbo didn't even know (just as in the book). But when the Fellowship is in Moria and Frodo spots Smeagol/Gollum he asks Gandalf: 'he escaped the dungeons of Barad-Dur?' And Gandalf replies: 'Escaped or set free' or something. Which is strange, because this implies Gollum was never captured by Aragorn/Wood Elves in the movie universe. So, then how does Gandalf get his information on Gollum?

''Do not fear the shadows, for seeing them means light is near...''


DanielLB
Immortal


Nov 15 2012, 9:47am

Post #9 of 37 (477 views)
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Somewhere in the Unfinished Tales it says ... [In reply to] Can't Post

Gollum is the love child of Gandalf and Galadriel.

Shocking.

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Danielos
Rohan

Nov 15 2012, 11:24am

Post #10 of 37 (428 views)
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Correction [In reply to] Can't Post

No, not that he refers to himself as Sméagol, but that he acts as Sméagol/Gollum.


jtarkey
Rohan


Nov 15 2012, 11:43am

Post #11 of 37 (407 views)
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Ahhh, yes. [In reply to] Can't Post

This explains why Gandalf is so offended when Frodo said Bilbo should have killed him when he had the chance. Just being protective of his child.

"You're love of the halflings leaf has clearly slowed your mind"


Danielos
Rohan

Nov 15 2012, 12:30pm

Post #12 of 37 (403 views)
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Mercy for Gollum [In reply to] Can't Post

I wished the ROTK EE would have included the little beautiful speech in Minas Tirith by Gandalf that Frodo should forgive Gollum, since if it wasn´t for him, the Ring would never had been destroyed.


Lieutenant of Dol Guldur
Gondor


Nov 15 2012, 1:01pm

Post #13 of 37 (431 views)
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It all makes sense.. let's have a closer look! [In reply to] Can't Post

This is based on the MOVIE-facts not the written ones:
-----
- Sméagol kills Déagol to get the Ring, becomes Gollum and was banned by his friends and family. He enters the Mountains with the Ring (ROTK)
- "For five hundred years it poisoned his mind; and in the gloom of Gollum's cave, it waited" - Galadriel (FOTR)
- Bilbo finds the Ring, Gollum becames mad (FOTR, AUJ)
- Bilbo tells Frodo (and Gandalf aswell) his story. Also the "Riddles in the Dark" sequence (FOTR... both know about Gollum)
- Gandalf noticed the word "precious" used by Bilbo what remembered him of Bilbos story about Gollum (FOTR)
- Gandalfs fears this Ring could be the One and rides to Minas Tirith where he finds the truth. At the same time Gollum is tortured in Barad-dûr (FOTR)
- Gandalf returns to Hobbiton telling Frodo: " I looked everywhere for the creature Gollum, but the enemy found him first. I don't know how long they tortured him, but through the endless screams and inane babble, they discerned two words: Shire, Baggins" that implies that he found him too but after Sauron. He learned that Gollum was tortured by Sauron and that he told him the two words. (FOTR)
- In Moria Gandalf noticed Gollum long before Frodo did. Frodo asked Gandalf:
"He escaped the dungeons of Barad-Dur?" And Gandalf answers: "Escaped or set free?" looking at Gollum if he wanted this creature to answer this. Like "You know what really happened don't you? You told me about it." And after that he says something like "Sméagols life is a sad story". That implies that he knows more about Gollum than he revealed to Frodo earlier. (FOTR)
- Later Boromir notices Gollum following them but he doesn't know what it is. Aragorn tells him about Gollum, that water seems to be his element and that he follows them since Moria. What implies that even Aragorn is at least aware of Gollums story. (FOTR EE)
-----
All in all it is not mentioned in the films how Gandalf became aware of Gollums/Sméagols story but it seems pretty obvious that he looked for him and found him somewhere (after Sauron did) and that Gollum told him everything he knew. And at least he told Aragorn all about it or (as in the book) Aragorn was the one who found Gollum for Gandalf. I think that is enough for a movie that is about something else than Gollums story.

If you're interested in it... I just can recommend the great fan film "The Hunt For Gollum" to you if you didn't watched it yet. It is really, really good and it fits perfect in the gap between Bilbos 111th birthday and Frodos departure with Sam and tells you everything you want to know.


"There is only one Lord of the Ring, only one who can bend it to his will. And he does not share power."


Sinister71
Tol Eressea


Nov 15 2012, 2:42pm

Post #14 of 37 (358 views)
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I disagree.... [In reply to] Can't Post

There is no indication in the Hobbit book that he has multiple personalities. He merely talks to himself, or he is talking to the ring. His saying we can refer to either himself and Smeagol which I find unlikely or referring to himself and the ring as his precious. Personally I think the later since it was the ring that corrupted his mind over 500 years. But there is no indication of the schizophrenic demeanor that Jackson is going to portray in the Hobbit film. He is simplifying Gollum to fit what the general movie going public has come to expect from the portrayal in the LOTR films. Which by the way wasn't ALL bad.Wink But the split personalities didn't show until after prolonged time with Frodo with Frodo mentioning the name Smeagol to him.

Jackson if having Gollum remember his name of Smeagol contradicts himself in his own films because he clearly says Gollum forgot the name Smeagol. And when Frodo says that name to him you can see the pain of remembering in Gollum's eyes. As if he truly had forgotten it. I'm sure they are ging to play up the connection with Smeagol/ Gollum because thatwhat Jackson thinks people expect and it gives Andy Sirkis more to act with. Which IMO is a wrong portrayal of Gollum. I would prefer a Gollum who was the dark skulking creature that wanted to kill Bilbo and eat him instead of some bouncing happy puppy going back and forth with himself.Unsure


Ardamírë
Valinor


Nov 15 2012, 2:58pm

Post #15 of 37 (340 views)
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Good point [In reply to] Can't Post

I'd forgotten about Gandalf line "But the enemy found him first." So I guess Gandalf does find him at some point in the films, it's just never shown or delved into very deeply.

"...and his first memory of Middle-earth was the green stone above her breast as she sang above his cradle while Gondolin was still in flower." -Unfinished Tales


DanielLB
Immortal


Nov 15 2012, 3:08pm

Post #16 of 37 (336 views)
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And it explains why 3 eagles were sent to Mount Doom! [In reply to] Can't Post

Gandalf just wanted his son back.

The biggest tragedy in all of Tolkien's works.

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Ardamírë
Valinor


Nov 15 2012, 3:21pm

Post #17 of 37 (330 views)
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I think the absence of... [In reply to] Can't Post

The talking purse has pushed you over the edge, Daniel!

"...and his first memory of Middle-earth was the green stone above her breast as she sang above his cradle while Gondolin was still in flower." -Unfinished Tales


DanielLB
Immortal


Nov 15 2012, 4:26pm

Post #18 of 37 (314 views)
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I'm still shouting: [In reply to] Can't Post

"Ere! Oo are you?" In the Troll scene, whether people want it or not!Wink

Have I gone loopy? Quite possibly.Wink

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Sinister71
Tol Eressea


Nov 15 2012, 4:36pm

Post #19 of 37 (292 views)
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Maybe they gave that line to one of the trolls... [In reply to] Can't Post

Just sayin' its a possibility... Wink


Ardamírë
Valinor


Nov 15 2012, 4:38pm

Post #20 of 37 (282 views)
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You need to record it [In reply to] Can't Post

and put it on youtube so everyone can download it and play it in cinemas all over the world!

Then, due to overwhelming pressure, the talking purse will be reinserted to the blu-ray edition, and PJ will say it was always there Angelic

"...and his first memory of Middle-earth was the green stone above her breast as she sang above his cradle while Gondolin was still in flower." -Unfinished Tales


DanielLB
Immortal


Nov 15 2012, 4:42pm

Post #21 of 37 (282 views)
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Probably... [In reply to] Can't Post

Such a shame.Frown

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DanielLB
Immortal


Nov 15 2012, 4:43pm

Post #22 of 37 (275 views)
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Sounds like a good idea to me ;-) / [In reply to] Can't Post

 

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Ardamírë
Valinor


Nov 15 2012, 4:44pm

Post #23 of 37 (275 views)
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Get to it!// [In reply to] Can't Post

 

"...and his first memory of Middle-earth was the green stone above her breast as she sang above his cradle while Gondolin was still in flower." -Unfinished Tales


Sinister71
Tol Eressea


Nov 15 2012, 4:48pm

Post #24 of 37 (276 views)
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Honestly the talking purse never bothered me too much anyways [In reply to] Can't Post

I could take it or leave it but I think it would have made for a more comedic moment than Bilbo say He "wouldn't risk it" while standing there in a sack.Wink


DanielLB
Immortal


Nov 15 2012, 5:03pm

Post #25 of 37 (273 views)
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It will be interesting to fid out why they removed it [In reply to] Can't Post

Since the film is full to the brim of comedy and cheap farting an burping jokes, a scene faithful to Tolkien wouldn't stick out at all.

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