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The One Ring Forums: Tolkien Topics: Movie Discussion: The Hobbit:
Storybook Spoilers - "Hunter Orcs"
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Captain Salt
Tol Eressea


Nov 6 2012, 6:09am

Post #1 of 60 (1759 views)
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Storybook Spoilers - "Hunter Orcs" Can't Post

Well, the new TH books just became available on Kindle...am browsing through them, (there don't appear to be many spoilers whatsoever, in fact they're all very barebones)...however, in the TH movie storybook, there's something which is rather curious - apparently, Thorin & Co. are first attacked by Orcs and their Warg pack outside the Trollshaw, taking refuge in Rivendell just in time...but these Orcs find them again as they flee the Goblins of the Misty Mountains (leading to "Out of the Frying Pan"). The book also mentions an Orc Chieftain - there's a picture of Fimbul, but this may be reference to Yazneg. No mention of how or why these Orcs found are Company are stalking them, but thought it was interesting what what are referred to in the "Warg Battle" LEGO set as "Hunter Orcs" enter the picture as early as the Trollshaw...

Also, according to this Bilbo falls into Gollum's cave BEFORE the Dwarves are brought before the Goblin King, with Riddles playing out concurrently with the Goblin Town sequence.

My Top 5 Wish List for "The Hobbit"
5. Legolas will surf down Smaug's neck
4. Bilbo will be revealed to a Robot
3. Naked PJ cameo as Ghan-Buri-Ghan
2. Use of not only 3D, but smell-o-vision, plus the inclusion of axes coming out of the seats and poking the audience when appropriate
1. Not only keep the claim that Thorin & Co. ran amok in Mirkwood "molesting people", but depict said incident in vivid detail!!!!!


(This post was edited by Captain Salt on Nov 6 2012, 6:19am)


Joe20
Lorien

Nov 6 2012, 6:16am

Post #2 of 60 (847 views)
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Hmmm interesting. [In reply to] Can't Post

That could be where this scene takes place. Is it scene 88? There was a discussion the other day about when this scene occurred. I for one am happy about this, though it does deviate from the book, I'm a sucker for battle sequences. Laugh


(This post was edited by Joe20 on Nov 6 2012, 6:17am)


Captain Salt
Tol Eressea


Nov 6 2012, 6:20am

Post #3 of 60 (802 views)
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Possibly [In reply to] Can't Post

Not sure if that's Scene 88 or not...the topography does look similar to the massive rocks which the book notes dominate the trail to Rivendell.

Sounds like Yazneg/Fimbul are going to recurring nuisances and stalking our cast throughout the film at any rate.

My Top 5 Wish List for "The Hobbit"
5. Legolas will surf down Smaug's neck
4. Bilbo will be revealed to a Robot
3. Naked PJ cameo as Ghan-Buri-Ghan
2. Use of not only 3D, but smell-o-vision, plus the inclusion of axes coming out of the seats and poking the audience when appropriate
1. Not only keep the claim that Thorin & Co. ran amok in Mirkwood "molesting people", but depict said incident in vivid detail!!!!!


Shelob'sAppetite
Valinor

Nov 6 2012, 6:22am

Post #4 of 60 (874 views)
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I refuse to believe this [In reply to] Can't Post

These changes seem to both be far too dramatic. PJ altered things, and added things, but he did not make any major geographic and storyline adjustments, apart from the Faramir-to-Osgiliath bit.

But who knows... It might be a long three hours...


DarkJackal
Rohan


Nov 6 2012, 7:05am

Post #5 of 60 (817 views)
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What is impossible to believe? [In reply to] Can't Post

I missed what in those speculations was any more outrageous than anything else we've seen.

The Hobbit Photo Gallery


Eleniel
Grey Havens


Nov 6 2012, 7:26am

Post #6 of 60 (760 views)
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What motivation? [In reply to] Can't Post

It would help to know how and why Fimbul gets onto Thorin's trail...

It was assumed, from the character description -


Quote

FIMBUL
The exceedingly cruel orc Fimbul is one of Azog’s master hunters. He commands a horde of warg riders who trace their victims in the saddle of their gigantic wolf beasts. Fimbul has taken up the scent of Thorin Oakenshield & Co. and will catch the dwarves before they reach the Lonely Mountain



- that the Dwarves' scent was picked up via their sojourn in Goblin town. Now we're being led to believe Azog gets to hear about the expedition earlier?

I'm not liking that they somehow seem to think we need more action between escaping the trolls and arriving at Rivendell...sound like we're getting The Hobbit on steroids... Unimpressed



"Choosing Trust over Doubt gets me burned once in a while, but I'd rather be singed than hardened."
¯ Victoria Monfort






DanielLB
Immortal


Nov 6 2012, 8:03am

Post #7 of 60 (736 views)
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It's a strange change [In reply to] Can't Post

And the tracklist from a couple of days ago seemed to suggest such a change.

I'm not sure I see the point, but then again, I have no idea how anything will pan out at the moment. I'd rather they got waylaid by Barrow-wights, than Orcs and Wargs. That means it happens 3 times (Trollshaws, Goblin-town, Out of the Frying Pan) in one film. Unsure

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DanielLB
Immortal


Nov 6 2012, 8:05am

Post #8 of 60 (730 views)
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Perhaps this suggests [In reply to] Can't Post

That it is Fimbul's company that have driven the Stone Trolls away from the Mountains. They then stay to the East of the Mountains to try a capture unsuspecting travellers?

Similar to the Fellowship in FOTR before they enter the Mines if Moria (only shifting it before Rivendell, rather than after)?

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ElendilTheShort
Gondor


Nov 6 2012, 8:35am

Post #9 of 60 (735 views)
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Being hunted by orcs continually [In reply to] Can't Post

let alone as early as the Trollshaws will change the entire tone of the story. This can only be done as part of the "making it a bigger story" idea that also involves Sauron to a much greater extent instead of him just being a device to remove Gandalf from the dwarves, and how the events of the Hobbit fit within the history of Middle Earth. This is for me an unfortunate addition if they are pursued on the wrong side of th misty mountains. Other changes such as Tauriel, expanded Goblin Town, ncreasing Bards role all seem minor and still fitting within what could have been in the books events, but just wen't mentioned, or minor additions at worst, but a continual orc threat suggests greater things at work. There is a difference between telling the Dol Guldur story and entwining it with the Hobbit story. Personally one sits well and the other doesn't.


(This post was edited by ElendilTheShort on Nov 6 2012, 8:37am)


Fardragon
Rohan

Nov 6 2012, 8:44am

Post #10 of 60 (687 views)
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Well, [In reply to] Can't Post

If the orcs have a specific connection to The Company, it perhaps makes more sense for them to have been hunting them for some time, rather than for them to simply stumble across them the instant they come down from the mountains.

They may even have been tailing Radagast.

A Far Dragon is the best kind...


DanielLB
Immortal


Nov 6 2012, 9:14am

Post #11 of 60 (649 views)
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I'm not entirely sure what you mean? [In reply to] Can't Post

The whole reason the Goblins and Wargs take part in the BO5A is because of the events at the Misty Mountains.

If a new band of Orcs chase the Company before the Misty Mountains, then there must already be a motivation to stop them from getting across the Mountains? Why change the connection, when the connection is already made in Goblin-town?

But I think I'm misinterpreting what you are saying.

Smile

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(This post was edited by DanielLB on Nov 6 2012, 9:18am)


Jago M
Bree

Nov 6 2012, 9:23am

Post #12 of 60 (638 views)
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Indeed, this might be that location// [In reply to] Can't Post

 


Fardragon
Rohan

Nov 6 2012, 9:28am

Post #13 of 60 (647 views)
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I think that's changed to tie it into the Dol Guldur plot [In reply to] Can't Post

My theory. The orc warg riders from Dol Guldur are pursuing Radagast, who flees to Gandalf, reaching him near the Trollshaws. The orcs then pick up the trail of Thorin, who killed Azog in this version of events.

The orcs, pursuing Thorin across the mountains (taking a long way around Rivendell) encounter the Goblins, who are angry because Gandalf just killed the Great Goblin. They form an alliance and continue the pursuit together.

They loose the trail after the Eagle rescue, but eventually receive intelligence that sends them to the lonely mountain.

A Far Dragon is the best kind...


Jago M
Bree

Nov 6 2012, 9:35am

Post #14 of 60 (660 views)
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It won't necessarily compare to the second warg-attack [In reply to] Can't Post

Maybe in the scene before rivendell we get the first hints on the fact that the company is being followed by warg-riders?
This makes finding Rivendell even more urgent.
So maybe no huge pack of wargs but only a few as some sort of warning (the tracklist also saying: warg-scouts).

Still a strange change though, but surely all perfectly explained by pj en co, giving us enough reasons to believe that they 'need' to be there ;-) (hinting on the 'bigger' -read: Sauron- story perhaps?)


DanielLB
Immortal


Nov 6 2012, 9:43am

Post #15 of 60 (613 views)
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Understood [In reply to] Can't Post

And thanks for clearing that up Fardragon. Smile

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malickfan
Gondor

Nov 6 2012, 11:43am

Post #16 of 60 (619 views)
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Joy! (sarcasm)...this only increases my fear That The Hobbit films will be a REWRITE not an adaptation. [In reply to] Can't Post

Personally I think shoehorning in action sequences because the screenwriters are embarassed/ annoyed with the book's tone does very little to contribute to the story of the Hobbit..and what exactly would orcs being doing east of the misty mountains anyway?, I'm getting increasingly annoyed with PJ's obession with adding and changing so much to such a simple story. For me The Hobbit always worked becuase it was so different and illogical compared to LOTR, at this rate more of the film will be based on PJ's ideas rather than Tolkien's.

I'm trying to keep an open mind, and in all likelihood I will enjoy the films as films...but I really am starting to doubt this will in anyway resemble The Hobbit story I love, and Jackson has always maintained the tone of the Hobbit 'bothers' him...

All I can say is a big thank you to everyone posting such information...if I went in to the cinema ignorant of all these changes I may well have suffered a heart attack.

Crazy

‘As they came to the gates Cirdan the Shipwright came forth to greet them. Very tall he was, and his beard was long, and we was grey and old, save that his eyes were keen as stars; and he looked at them and bowed, and said ‘All is now ready.’

Perhaps the most fascinating Individual in Middle Earth



Lieutenant of Dol Guldur
Gondor


Nov 6 2012, 12:25pm

Post #17 of 60 (559 views)
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More Fimbul action! Yes... No!... Yes? [In reply to] Can't Post


Quote
Thorin & Co. are first attacked by Orcs and their Warg pack outside the Trollshaw

Hmmm... I already mentioned that I really like Fimbul and his warg-scouts. He is till now my favorite-TH-orc. I like his design and also his (described) character as a master hunter of Azog (or Yazneg or whoever it is now). So one half of me is really happy about this new Filmbul-warg-action. But the other half of me asks himself: Why? Just because PJ kicked the warg-scene out of FOTR we now got (alongside the warg-attack in TTT and the written warg-attack in TH and the BOFA) another one before Rivendell?
When I checked Howard Shores tracklist I noticed Track 15 on the first deluxe CD "Warg-scouts" just after Track 14 "Hill of Sorcery" (Dol Guldur) and Track 13 "Troll hoard" and before Track 16 "The Hidden Valley" and Track 17 "Moon Runes" (both Rivendell). I asked myself: Are theses wargs perhaps from Dol Guldur? It wouldn't make any sense to let them appear between Trollshaws and Rivendell. Well... obviously they appear between Trollshaws and Rivendell. But it seems that these warg-riders are just scouts of Azog (or Yazneg or whoever it is now) following Thorin & Co. Perhaps the dwarves notice one of the scouts and (perhaps Kili with his bow) kills him while Fimbul the master-hunter escapes to Gundabad to tell his chieftain that Thorin is entering Rivendell and perhaps then tries to pass the Mountains? I want to see more of Fimbul but I want to see him as a HUNTER and not just as an ATTACKER. The best choice would be: Fimbul and perhaps one or two other warg-riders are following Thorin & Co unnoticed.



Quote
[..]with Riddles playing out concurrently with the Goblin Town sequence

But there are several shots with Bilbo in Goblin Town. It wouldn't make any sense. He is captured by the goblins together with the dwarves and got lost on their way to Goblin Town just to appear there defending himself against a angry goblin (Trailer 2)? It can't be after the Riddle-scene because he is wearing the Ring afterwards and if he wears the Ring he has to be invisible. Can't imagine it that way.

"There is only one Lord of the Ring, only one who can bend it to his will. And he does not share power."

(This post was edited by Lieutenant of Dol Guldur on Nov 6 2012, 12:27pm)


thomasofrohan
Lorien

Nov 6 2012, 12:30pm

Post #18 of 60 (575 views)
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It's possible that the storybook makes its *own* changes. That has happened before [In reply to] Can't Post

 


dave_lf
Gondor

Nov 6 2012, 1:08pm

Post #19 of 60 (501 views)
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Bilbo lost before goblin town [In reply to] Can't Post


Quote
But there are several shots with Bilbo in Goblin Town. It wouldn't make any sense. He is captured by the goblins together with the dwarves and got lost on their way to Goblin Town just to appear there defending himself against a angry goblin (Trailer 2)?


The sword "fight" (it seems too one-sided to really be much of a fight) probably occurs during the capture. And Bilbo probably loses and gets captured first, causing the rest of the party to surrender, as the Russian site suggested. No one would just make a detail like that up out of the blue.

But it should be easy enough for someone to comb through the trailers and see if Bilbo is in "that could have been worse" etc. (hint hint). Smile


Lieutenant of Dol Guldur
Gondor


Nov 6 2012, 1:23pm

Post #20 of 60 (500 views)
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Perhaps because the Riddle-scene is almost 15min long? [In reply to] Can't Post


Quote
[..] The sword "fight" (it seems too one-sided to really be much of a fight) probably occurs during the capture [..]


It looks more like Sting is defending Bilbo than Bilbo using Sting to defend himself. So you think they are going to be captured after entering Goblin Town? I always thought that they were captured before in the dark tunnels.

The only reason I see to change Bilbos disappearance is... perhaps because the Riddle-scene is almost 15min long and although it is a great and classical scene it might me a bit boring for a part of the audience that wants to see more action?



"There is only one Lord of the Ring, only one who can bend it to his will. And he does not share power."

(This post was edited by Lieutenant of Dol Guldur on Nov 6 2012, 1:24pm)


dave_lf
Gondor

Nov 6 2012, 1:45pm

Post #21 of 60 (476 views)
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One (likely, IMO) possibility [In reply to] Can't Post

is that the dwarves aren't simply grabbed in their sleep the way they are in the book, but instead are only captured after an extended action sequence that involves lots of fighting in the tunnels. And that during or immediately after the fight, Bilbo someone gets separated from the party and ends up at Gollum's lake.


(This post was edited by dave_lf on Nov 6 2012, 1:46pm)


Carne
Tol Eressea

Nov 6 2012, 1:49pm

Post #22 of 60 (472 views)
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I think they're captured as described in the book based on this shot: [In reply to] Can't Post

http://heirsofdurin.files.wordpress.com/2012/09/t173.jpg


Fardragon
Rohan

Nov 6 2012, 2:18pm

Post #23 of 60 (420 views)
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Not much choice. [In reply to] Can't Post

How can you adapt a book with minimal characterisation and very sparse dialogue without a rewrite?

It's inevitable that any movie based on The Hobbit will owe more to the screenwriters and director than the original novel, which is basically just a story outline. Hence PJ's initial reluctance to take on the project.

A Far Dragon is the best kind...


Lacrimae Rerum
Grey Havens

Nov 6 2012, 2:20pm

Post #24 of 60 (431 views)
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Sounds rather like Thrain's experience. [In reply to] Can't Post

 


Voronwë_the_Faithful
Valinor

Nov 6 2012, 2:21pm

Post #25 of 60 (420 views)
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I'm not seeing it either [In reply to] Can't Post

Is it the fact that they encounte Orcs earlier than in the book? That certainly is not a bigger change than, for instance, the warg riders in TTT.

'But very bright were the stars upon the margin of the world, when at times the clouds about the West were drawn aside.'

The Hall of Fire

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