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The One Ring Forums: Tolkien Topics: Movie Discussion: The Hobbit:
What does a still from 48fps look like?
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The Grey Elf
Gondor

Nov 5 2012, 1:05pm

Post #1 of 30 (1068 views)
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What does a still from 48fps look like? Can't Post

I may be revealing my woefully deplete technical knowledge here, but I was struck not just by the perfect composition of the Bag End scene that recently appeared in the French Premiere but by its exquisite clarity. Perhaps it's just me or my device but it did make my gray matter whir a bit.


squitzl
The Shire

Nov 5 2012, 1:09pm

Post #2 of 30 (665 views)
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This was posted on a recent thread by someone else but... [In reply to] Can't Post

http://www.red.com/learn/red-101/high-frame-rate-video?utm_source=red.com&utm_medium=learn%2Bpage%2Bslide&utm_campaign=High_Frame_Rate

If you scroll down on here there's a comparison of stills of a motorbike, in a few different fps.


Estel78
Tol Eressea

Nov 5 2012, 1:40pm

Post #3 of 30 (618 views)
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The pics in the french magazine... [In reply to] Can't Post

...might be publicity stills, made on set, not filmed with the RED Epic camera.


The Grey Elf
Gondor

Nov 5 2012, 4:02pm

Post #4 of 30 (407 views)
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Thanks -- I'll check it out ! NT [In reply to] Can't Post

 


Shelob'sAppetite
Valinor

Nov 5 2012, 4:06pm

Post #5 of 30 (427 views)
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That would be a shame [In reply to] Can't Post

As the colors in them look better than most of what we've seen in the trailers.


Shelob'sAppetite
Valinor

Nov 5 2012, 4:09pm

Post #6 of 30 (412 views)
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This brings up a question [In reply to] Can't Post

Do Red Epics cut through shadows? I have heard that they cut through moisture, etc., but I hope they don't do the same with shadows.

But most of the footage we have seen thus far seems strangely shadowless, which has contributed to what seems to be a rather glossy look.


DarkJackal
Rohan


Nov 5 2012, 5:44pm

Post #7 of 30 (367 views)
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Stills [In reply to] Can't Post

The one of Bilbo in the chair with a cup is by James Fisher, according to the credit info.

The Hobbit Photo Gallery


DarkJackal
Rohan


Nov 5 2012, 5:52pm

Post #8 of 30 (382 views)
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I noticed a difference... [In reply to] Can't Post

...in the colors of the Bag End scenes in the TV spot just posted today and those from the second trailer alternate scenes. The new ones have less of a yellow cast.

Old

New

Looks better overall.

The Hobbit Photo Gallery


Shelob'sAppetite
Valinor

Nov 5 2012, 6:00pm

Post #9 of 30 (378 views)
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That's very reassuring, actually [In reply to] Can't Post

The new Bag End colors look much better. Reminds me of how much better the Rivendell scenes look on the remastered FOTR EE bluray, to the original cut.

My understanding is that Red Epics add lots of yellow, and kill red. Is that correct?


DanielLB
Immortal


Nov 5 2012, 6:05pm

Post #10 of 30 (369 views)
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Much better! Now they can fix Gollum!/ [In reply to] Can't Post

 

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Owain
Tol Eressea


Nov 5 2012, 7:17pm

Post #11 of 30 (313 views)
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They perform extremely well in low light... [In reply to] Can't Post

meaning that detail is maintained in the shadows... actually a lot better than film.

But those shadows can be darkened very easily.

It's the highlights that most Digital Cinema Cameras struggle with.

Smile

Middle Earth is New Zealand!

"Question everything, embrace the bad, and hold on to the good."


TheHutt
Gondor


Nov 5 2012, 7:21pm

Post #12 of 30 (344 views)
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A still from 48 fps... [In reply to] Can't Post

should look not different than a still from 24fps. Wink

As for other aspects discussed here, they are not inherent to 48fps (or the 24fps pulldown of it), but of different color gradings, compression, even different color spaces (0-255 vs 16-235) etc.

The thing with the red color eaten up by the RED EPIC also doesn't have anything to do with the framerate, but rather with the polarization filters used on the mirrors of the 3D rig.

Russian LotR/Hobbit Site:


Henneth-annun.ru - the Russian LOTR site


Elenorflower
Gondor


Nov 5 2012, 8:56pm

Post #13 of 30 (287 views)
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can someone give me [In reply to] Can't Post

a technophobes guide to the main differences between film and these new Red thingie cameras, as regards colour. What are the essential differences? do they tend to a particular tone or are they more lifelike, are they different in light and shades? I am a bit confused as to the benefits of using Red wotsit video over film. Will the colours be more or less saturated or luminous. Not really bothering about 3D or frame rates, just the colours, as that is what interests me most. thanks.


MediaMalable
Bree

Nov 5 2012, 9:18pm

Post #14 of 30 (283 views)
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The RED look [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
a technophobes guide to the main differences between film and these new Red thingie cameras, as regards colour. What are the essential differences? do they tend to a particular tone or are they more lifelike, are they different in light and shades? I am a bit confused as to the benefits of using Red wotsit video over film. Will the colours be more or less saturated or luminous. Not really bothering about 3D or frame rates, just the colours, as that is what interests me most. thanks.

Well the most obvious place to begin is to discuss other films shot on the RED. Examples include Prometheus, The Social Network, Amazing Spiderman. These films all look great, and sport very different looks. That's because the digital files shot by the RED gives you a much more maleable image than film. Which means that all those things you talked about above are choices the director and colorist can make with the footage, rather than being locked into a look.

The benefits of shooting RED are that you can shoot fantastically well in low-light without getting all the grain that you would get if you shot film. So you can get a nice clean image, even in adverse lighting conditions. The thing you'll really notice compared to a film shot on film is a sharp, clear quality, different from the somewhat softer, murkier quality of film.

It's worth remembering that the original LOTR films pioneered the art of digital grading (color grading) for movies shot on film. So the look was heavily adjusted. The Hobbit will be subject to even more digital manipulation I'm sure, so in terms of color and contrast the creators will be able to make it as saturated, or de-saturated as possible.

Peter Jackson has suggested that the on-set look of the film is a little more colorful than the final graded image will look, as they accentuated certain colors to make sure that the RED would pick them up accurately, giving them the most freedom to adjust the image later.

If you want a better sense of what the RED EPIC is capable of, from another epic shot in 3D, these screenshots from Prometheus give a great sense of what the camera can do. I thought this film looked really beautiful. Ridley Scott, like PJ, is a visual master, and the film shows it.
http://criterioncast.com/...blu-ray/prometheus/#


(This post was edited by MediaMalable on Nov 5 2012, 9:27pm)


MediaMalable
Bree


Nov 5 2012, 9:49pm

Post #15 of 30 (282 views)
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48 frames. [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
I may be revealing my woefully deplete technical knowledge here, but I was struck not just by the perfect composition of the Bag End scene that recently appeared in the French Premiere but by its exquisite clarity. Perhaps it's just me or my device but it did make my gray matter whir a bit.

Though that's probably a publicity still, a still image from a 48 frames per second footage should be significantly sharper than one from 24. Since that individual frame is representing 1/48th of a second rather than 1/24th, it has much less motion blur, and should be much sharper.


Elenorflower
Gondor


Nov 6 2012, 1:20am

Post #16 of 30 (203 views)
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Thank you MediaMalable [In reply to] Can't Post

for that excellent summary. Its much clearer now. I will have to see Prometheus now, those screencaps are amazing Evil


(This post was edited by Elenorflower on Nov 6 2012, 1:23am)


imin
Valinor


Nov 6 2012, 1:26am

Post #17 of 30 (194 views)
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Wow the new still looks a million times better! // [In reply to] Can't Post

 


Elizabeth
Valinor


Nov 6 2012, 3:00am

Post #18 of 30 (174 views)
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Thank you, that's an important point. [In reply to] Can't Post

Since "fps" means "frames per second" -- that is a rate, not an image. It's like asking what a car looks like at 60 mph vs 30 mph. It looks the same, it's just moving faster.

What's unique about the technology of TH is the digital cameras being used, which have higher resolution and different color options. The projection rate is just another variable, which cannot be seen in a single frame. People are using the term "48 fps" as a shorthand for the RED camera technology.






Join us NOW in the Reading Room for detailed discussions of The Hobbit, July 9-Nov. 18!

Elizabeth is the TORnsib formerly known as 'erather'

(This post was edited by Elizabeth on Nov 6 2012, 3:01am)


Shelob'sAppetite
Valinor

Nov 6 2012, 6:26am

Post #19 of 30 (166 views)
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Not quite [In reply to] Can't Post

One frame from a 24fps capable camera, catches some motion blur, if there is motion. So a still image may show that blur. One frame from a 48fps camera captures far less motion blur, so it is likely to look a bit sharper.


Kendalf
Rohan


Nov 6 2012, 9:55am

Post #20 of 30 (167 views)
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A vast improvement! [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
The new ones have less of a yellow cast.

Looks better overall.



Agreed!!!!! Fingers crossed the "new" look is the one that makes it into cinemas!

"Show...a little more respect...for faerie tales, Riskbreaker."


Shelob'sAppetite
Valinor

Nov 6 2012, 3:54pm

Post #21 of 30 (105 views)
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I'm certain it will be [In reply to] Can't Post

PJ and company have talked a lot about how everything comes off as very yellow with Red Epics, so this correction seems perfectly consistent. Look at Balin's beard, for example. It is a sickly yellow in the first shot, and a nice white in the second. There is no way they will go with the first look.


Estel78
Tol Eressea

Nov 6 2012, 3:58pm

Post #22 of 30 (123 views)
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Both looks can be attributed more to color grading than the camera used. // [In reply to] Can't Post

 


Shelob'sAppetite
Valinor

Nov 6 2012, 4:08pm

Post #23 of 30 (108 views)
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Not necessarily [In reply to] Can't Post

The first image may indeed be an ungraded shot. As we have learned that Red Epics really bring out the yellow in everything, it is reasonable to believe that the first shot is ungraded, and that the yellow is due to the nature of the camera.

The second shot, however, has clearly been through the grading grinder, and it looks great!


imin
Valinor


Nov 6 2012, 4:14pm

Post #24 of 30 (95 views)
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In the vlogs [In reply to] Can't Post

we saw them putting red make up on all the actors faces so that when they were filmed with the red epic they looked normal and not a weird colour (Simpson yellow?)


Estel78
Tol Eressea

Nov 6 2012, 4:32pm

Post #25 of 30 (86 views)
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It is not reasonable imo [In reply to] Can't Post

Would the RED Epics distort the colors to that degree the camera would not enjoy the enthusiasm it's getting.

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