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dormouse
Gondolin
Oct 30 2012, 8:11am
Post #1 of 8
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* * The Clouds Burst * * 2: Dread has come upon you all
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Quick questions again today - sorry about this, but I'm hoping quick is better than none....
Picking up the thought from yesterday about 'the bewilderment of the treasure', which Tolkien tells us is affecting Thorin, how far do you think the leaders below the mountain are being affected by it? Is Dain? Or Bard? The Elvenking I think isn't, for all that we've been told treasure is his weakness. I've always loved him for 'Long will I tarry, ere I begin this war for gold.' But maybe you disagree - feel free to!
Second thought: I love the drama of the way this chapter opens. There's a sense of urgency that builds as we read - achieved at least in part, I think, by the references to trumpets, running and hurrying. It feels as if the thing is building to open warfare between dwarf, man and elf, then suddenly the whole thing turns on that tremendous climax, with Gandalf coming in between the opposing armies like the herald of Mandos. It's brilliant stuff, I think - anyone agree? any other thoughts on this?
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elevorn
Menegroth
Oct 30 2012, 7:19pm
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One second he is all about treasure, then he's a helper to men, and then he wants to kill the dwarves. IDK, to me his character lacked a lot. Bard wnated back what was his, i think there is a sense that he is wanting to be a king, the gold gives him the wealth he needs, but at the same time I don't think it effects his character to too great an extent. he wants to be able to help his people. Thorin's obstinance gives everyone a great vehicle to go to battle in an already emotional time.
yes it does build and quicken and then to have Gandalf stand in between them and announce their doom is so wonderful. like a clap of thunder and lightning that cuases everything to pause for a moment.
"clever hobbits to climb so high!"
Check out my writing www.jdstudios.wordpress.com
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dormouse
Gondolin
Oct 31 2012, 7:47am
Post #3 of 8
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I don't think he's all about treasure. He has a weakness for treasure, true, but his actions show that he values other things more highly. He won't pursue treasure leaving the Lake people to suffer and he won't go to war for treasure. And when did he say he wanted to kill the dwarves?
No, I'd say that the King, Gandalf and Bilbo are the ones who aren't caught up in 'the bewilderment of the treasure'. Even Bard is willing to start the fight
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sador
Gondolin
Oct 31 2012, 9:32am
Post #4 of 8
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Picking up the thought from yesterday about 'the bewilderment of the treasure', which Tolkien tells us is affecting Thorin,
Why? There is the bewilderment of the Arkstone being held to ransom, as well as of betrayal. Compare. (I know Tolkien says so, the question is about the narrator's statement)
how far do you think the leaders below the mountain are being affected by it?
It seems that Tolkien states that it is the looking upon this treasure which a dragon sat long upon; so they shouldn't be now.
After the end of this book, though, the curse will fall on them, and they will begin bickering and ultimately selling each oother out to the highest bidder (i.e. the Necromancer).
What? According to the sequel they didn't? What of the curse?
Is Dain?
Betrayal yes, the Arkenstone yes, the treasure no. After all, that's what the narrator says - and Dain never seems to disagree with Thorin!
Or Bard?
Betrayal no, the Arkenstone maybe - but he did end up returning it, so perhaps no.
However, he is holden to his dreams of rebuilding Dale, and probably driven by the knowledge the ever-so-fickle people of Esgaroth follow him only because they hope for treasure.
If he fails - they seem very likely to turn against him, for the next hero of the moment. Republics, you know.
The Elvenking I think isn't, for all that we've been told treasure is his weakness. I've always loved him for 'Long will I tarry, ere I begin this war for gold.' But maybe you disagree - feel free to!
I'm not sure your quote proves anything - his following reasons seem like sound strategical thinking.
But by now he knows nothing will be paid unto him directly.
What I do love the Elvenking for, is his turning aside to succor the distressed Lake-men, rather than heading straight North to secure the treasure for himself. After all, he could have just with one fell swoop destroy the dwarves and sieze the treasure,
Second thought: I love the drama of the way this chapter opens. There's a sense of urgency that builds as we read - achieved at least in part, I think, by the references to trumpets, running and hurrying.
Nice!
It feels as if the thing is building to open warfare between dwarf, man and elf, then suddenly the whole thing turns on that tremendous climax, with Gandalf coming in between the opposing armies like the herald of Mandos.
Which herald of Mandos did that?
The only thing by Tolkien which I think is comparable, is Aragorn jumping between Eomer and Gimli before the two come to blows.
Off the top of my head, I don't remember no Biblical or classical precedents. I this an original Tolkien image?
It's brilliant stuff, I think - anyone agree?
I like it.
any other thoughts on this?
But squire didn't.
"With all the various Dwarves of different Mansions that we see being excellent Smiths in the Silmariilion and TLOR, why is it only Dain's faction of the Longbeard's who hold the secret to making the metal mesh?"
- Tolkien Forever
The weekly discussion of The Hobbit is back. Join us in the Reading Room for The Clouds Burst!
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elevorn
Menegroth
Oct 31 2012, 5:15pm
Post #5 of 8
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Sometimes I forget whats in the book and whats in the cartoon for character stuff. He never says it, but for whatever reason I hear it in my head, silly subconscious memory
"clever hobbits to climb so high!"
Check out my writing www.jdstudios.wordpress.com
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justbennett
Lindon
Nov 1 2012, 8:22pm
Post #6 of 8
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I like the Gandalf scene as well. Unfortunately, I've watched too many movies. Movies always deliver important lines and moments in close-up. As you reminded me of the episode, though, I try to imagine it as a soldier in rank far away from the center of things. Imagine that as you are surveying the field wondering where and when you will see action, there's a great confusion and shouting. Then perhaps all falls silent in a moment as everyone looks around. Maybe you see the birds first or catch a glimpse of the dwarf army, then you hear it. You probably don't catch the first word because your ears don't know what sort of voice they are hearing yet. Then as you reposition and find the source you see the little wizard on the big field. How did he get there? Is he crazy? What's he saying? Doom? What an adrenaline rush it would be to go from preparing for a battle that no one is sure they want to a shifted alliance for their survival against clearly evil forces of darkness! I imagine a sense of fear and martial satisfaction. We're in for it now, but at least I'll be hacking nasty wolves rather than short elderly people.
With a movie mindset I imagine almost everything in close up. Sometimes I strive for a more realistic perspective. You know, as real as you can get with wizards, orcs and such.
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dormouse
Gondolin
Nov 3 2012, 8:51am
Post #7 of 8
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... but when you think about it, even when Tolkien told the story to his children, before it was written down, people were used to the movies. They knew about close-ups. By the time it was published, movies were one of the main sources of entertainment, so even the first readers would have been used to that kind of presentation of a story. But you're right. One tiny wizard between huge armies bent on killing one another, somehow managing to make his voice heard, has a different kind of drama to it. That was why I mentioned the herald of Mandos, which another poster questioned. It does remind me of that. In both cases you have a huge host bent on following its own course in defiance of reason - in the Sil it's the Noldor trying to escape Aman after the Kinslaying; here it's groups who are essentially good locking horns over treasure, none prepared to give way, and suddenly in both cases there's one figure, a lone voice, making itself heard and stopping them - changing the course of events. It does remind me and I'm unrepentant about that!
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justbennett
Lindon
Nov 5 2012, 9:03pm
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That really makes me want to go back in time and interview some people who read fiction before the advent of motion pictures. For that matter how about before the invention of photography period. There really are some things you cannot unlearn. Now I have to go back and read Beowolf trying to pretend I've never seen a movie or a photograph.
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