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Misto
Menegroth
Oct 12 2012, 3:35pm
Post #26 of 57
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Don't get me started on Denethor!
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How could I forget this? Topped by the moment when Gandalf smacks Denethor with his staff. I mean... really?
I really love book-verse Denethor and I think John Noble does a really decent job in the few moments where they actually let him act but movie-Denethor is just not for me. Having seen the movies first, coming upon Tolkien's original idea of Denethor in the books was quite a revelation.
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Nuradar
Nargothrond
Oct 12 2012, 6:39pm
Post #27 of 57
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was actually an accident. He says so in the special features.
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Nuradar
Nargothrond
Oct 12 2012, 6:48pm
Post #28 of 57
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- Eowyn's song at Theodred's funeral (man, that was painful. I fast forward through it every time I watch).
- the "nervous system" line in TTT. So out of place.
- the slow-motion during the scene where they encounter Celeborn and Galadriel in Lothlorien.
- when Sam fights the Orcs on the stairs of Barad-dur before rescuing Frodo. The Orcs are too easily killed.
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sevilodorf
Dor-Lomin
Oct 12 2012, 11:59pm
Post #30 of 57
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If just for the logistics of a person running that distance.
Fourth Age Adventures at the Inn of the Burping Troll http://burpingtroll.com
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GoodGuyA
Menegroth
Oct 13 2012, 4:23am
Post #31 of 57
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The biggest thing about the flaming leap...
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Is that I never notice it! Not a single time, unless I'm looking for it! It's such a rapid shot and you can't get a real grasp of what it is. I found the actual preperation to burn, though overly dramatic, not exactly cheesy.
I'm putting up my defense for the Saruman death scene. That may be heavy handed, but it's not like Saruman's very purpose in thematic representation wasn't heavy handed. The scene is very hard hitting, from the impact, to the reaction, to the very purpose it serves in the plot. It's a visual flair, just like Minas Morgul erupting. Was that cheesy? "Cheesy moments" are usually just tossed aside but this was through and through with its dramatic impact. Even the absurd can be made plausible (case and point, Gandalf).
I do confess though, I hate it when you see the Uruks chasing the Fellowship across the Anduin. It's not that it wasn't necessary, but the fact that you have that pounding music (though awesome music) and sweeping shot intercutting their running... Which uses that stupid frame cutting technique (and, of course, PJ didn't learn his lesson for King Kong!) that really kills the actual presence that the Uruks have on screen.
Mainly I'll defend most of the gratuitous imagery or otherwise mainly because it serves a story purpose, though when it derides from that story purpose, then you start to have decisions which are genuinely "cheesy". The orc on pike at Fangorn is not cheesy. The menace of Gothmog is not cheesy. And above all, I find there are some movies which make me cover my eyes when I see articular scenes, but everything in LotR is engaging and not so filmy as to take me out of it. The immersion building in these films is so spectacular.
And people trashing Eowyn's song? Are you serious? That's one of the most unique pieces in the trilogy, and it's sung fine! Man... Some people.
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Elenorflower
Mithlond
Oct 13 2012, 12:40pm
Post #32 of 57
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GoodGuyA ok I have just rewatched the
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EE version of Eowyns lament for Theodred in the spirit of being fair to your comment, and I was quite shocked at how different it sounded. I had only ever seen a very truncated short version before, indeed I had never seen that scene in full before.I had probably only seen the theatrical version I think, but whatever version it was it hadnt shown the full scene, It was completely different, and on this viewing I really liked it a lot. It didnt sound cheesy or cringy at all, it sounded arcane and right for the moment, so it just goes to show which version you see makes all the difference and puts things into context. I have now completely changed my idea on this, and I am only sorry I put Eowyns Lament on my list of cheesy moments.
(This post was edited by Elenorflower on Oct 13 2012, 12:42pm)
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GoodGuyA
Menegroth
Oct 13 2012, 3:29pm
Post #33 of 57
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Just goes to show the graciousness of Galadriel
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 You didn't have to do that, but I'm glad I could make the viewing more enjoyable for you! I just find it to be a lovely piece, and impeccably sung in Old English! Another moment where heart triumphs in the film. Though I will certainly concede that the song in the Houses of Healing is a bit cheesy. Not that it's a bad song (and Liv, you're gorgeous!) but it's in rather non-poetic English. We only get English songs at the end of the films, and they're strongly orchestral.
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Magpie
Elvenhome
Oct 13 2012, 4:17pm
Post #34 of 57
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we've had some past discussions about Eowyn's songs
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that were interesting. I'll go in a moment and see if I can track down any.
I feel the same way about Liv's song in the Houses of Healing. And for pretty much the same reason. It's worse, imo, that a really beautiful song was bumped to make way for it: Sissel's Asëa Aranion.
http://www.youtube.com/...youtu.be&t=2m52s
okay...
here's one of the discussions of the scene at Theodred's grave.
http://newboards.theonering.net/...cgi?post=78835#78835
I thought there were more but I can't find them.
I did some work on the lyrics and translation of this song before there was much official information and I enjoyed dabbling in the Old English. I am fascinated by etymology and enjoyed finding the word gléomenn which is the ancestor of 'gleemen' and glee clubs (a term that was common when I was a child) and now Glee. I love Funeral of Théodred (aka as Lament for Théodred) and only wish I could have a full length version of it. The melody was written by Plan 9.
(and one slight correction to this: 'we only get English songs at the end of the film'. There are, of course, the diegetic songs sung by the Hobbits. I don't count those and I suspect you wouldn't either. But the other score song that is in English is also sung by Liv/Arwen - the one heard as she kneels by Frodo at the banks of the Anduin. I argued with someone who identified those lyrics as English - back when we didn't have much on lyrics - saying, 'there's no way those would be in English.' Well, he was right and I was wrong. I kind of sucked it up then and grumbled under my breath but I really didn't like having the one at the Houses of Healing included.)
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Elenorflower
Mithlond
Oct 13 2012, 5:48pm
Post #35 of 57
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you know that scene that I had never seen before is making me wonder if I have missed a version of the EE? I mean I just dont remember seeing the full version of Theodreds burial at all. Obviously I saw the theatrical version, and I thought I had seen the EE, but is there another version? maybe on the dvd? there is another scene I dont remember either, its the one where you see Aragorn and co looking over to Caras Galadhon in the distance, I dont remember seeing that anywhere. crikey.
Anyway you are right, its very good, I like the bit where Eowyn seems to be wringing her hands in grief, I am glad I made the effort to watch it.
actually the song by Liv is my favourite in the whole film because its so romantic, I know there are more authentic songs, but it just makes me sigh and go all dreamy, I love the visuals too.
(This post was edited by Elenorflower on Oct 13 2012, 5:55pm)
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Elenorflower
Mithlond
Oct 13 2012, 6:00pm
Post #36 of 57
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Magpie thanks for posting that discussion
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about Theodreds burial, its very interesting. I also noticed the woman singing behind Eowyn, it was a lovely touch, very moving.
Its a shame missed the screencap discussion, I would have liked to discuss it more.
(This post was edited by Elenorflower on Oct 13 2012, 6:02pm)
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Magpie
Elvenhome
Oct 13 2012, 6:37pm
Post #37 of 57
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you can find transcripts of the movies online
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I usually just google something like: Fellowship Ring transcript
Some sites have just the TE or the EE and some have both but not for all three movies. I just jump to whatever comes up highest on the Google search. Council of Elrond is one of the sites.
They can be useful for tracking down whether a scene is in the TE or just in the EE (and there are a few scenes which are fairly different in each version) or for figuring out where a scene takes place (shots of Isildur can be seen in the prologue, while Gandalf is at the libraries, and when Elrond reminisces).
You could browse the transcripts and find those scenes you're wondering about and then check where they are and in which version.
There is only the TE and the EE of each movie. There is not a third version.
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Magpie
Elvenhome
Oct 13 2012, 6:40pm
Post #38 of 57
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Well, you're discussing it now :-)
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The SCODs kind of plod their way through all three movies but you're always welcome to start a spontaneous discussion on any topic you chose.
The thing I miss about some of those old discussions are the posters who aren't around much anymore. There were some really insightful people who always made me look at things in a new way. They drop in now and again, but not with any regularity.
But new blood can bring new ideas if we get the critical mass to get ideas exchanging. :-)
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Elenorflower
Mithlond
Oct 13 2012, 9:08pm
Post #39 of 57
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I am glad there isnt some mysterious 3rd version I hadnt seen. I will just have to invest in the EE version, and pay more attention.
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zarabia
Dor-Lomin
Oct 14 2012, 2:09am
Post #41 of 57
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The more often I've watched, the more cheese I've found
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For the most part, I love these films, but, as the saying goes, familiarity breeds contempt. Well, maybe not contempt, but some cringing and eye-rolling. It's not so much whole scenes that bother me - though there are a few - it's little details or matters of style. Most people have already noted many of the eye-rollers for me, but I have to say I can't stand any of the scenes with orcs besides the Moria orcs and the Uruk Hai at the end of the Fellowship. The orcs in those scenes work for me, all the other orc scenes ooze cheese. Much sillier than sinister. And when the orcs are squabbling over the hobbits in TTT and you see what looks like a string of sausage links thrown into the air - but I suspect it was supposed to looks like intestines - either way, pure cringe-worthy cheese. 
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Shelob'sAppetite
Doriath
Oct 14 2012, 4:03am
Post #42 of 57
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One of the few times I will agree with you (openly)
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I do confess though, I hate it when you see the Uruks chasing the Fellowship across the Anduin. It's not that it wasn't necessary, but the fact that you have that pounding music (though awesome music) and sweeping shot intercutting their running... Which uses that stupid frame cutting technique (and, of course, PJ didn't learn his lesson for King Kong!) that really kills the actual presence that the Uruks have on screen.
That is, for me, one of the most poorly done sequences in all three films. Some more:
1. Merry and Pippin bumping into Frodo and Sam in the cornfield. The odds!
2. "I think I've broken something" - Merry
3. Weathertop. The whole thing. But especially Aragorn's flaming torch throw into the Nazgul's face.
4. "What's this? A Ranger caught off his guard?" Velveeta.
5. Slo-motion meeting of Frodo, Sam, Pippin and Merry in Rivendell
6. Gimli's hack at the Ring
7. "You shall be the fellowship of the ring!" with everyone in their perfect wedding photo poses
8. The first hero fellowship shot with everyone coming over the ridge in slow-motion. No more slo-motion please...
9. Frodo's slo-motion fake death in the Chamber of Mazarbul
9b. Sam fighting orcs with his pan..."I think I'm getting the hang of this!" Beyond stupid.
10. The fellowship is surrounded by thousands of goblins, meaning certain death, and are then bailed out by the Balrog. Was this necessary?
11. Celeborn's slo-motion dialogue
12. Most of the Saruman-Uruk Hai scenes. Pure camp.
13. Aragorn's fake death/warg scene
14. The stew scene
15. Theoden's OTT makeup
16. Wormtongue's OTT evilness
17. The entire Treebeard sequence
18. Everything Gimli says and does from TTT onwards
19. Theoden's "Is that all you've got, Saruman?" Like something out of a bad football movie.
20. Most of Helm's Deep.
21. Sam's dumb, corny speech at the end of TTT
22. The drinking game
23. Skull-valanche
24. The attack on the pirates
25. Green scrubbing bubbles on the Pelennor
26. Legolas' mumakil downer
27. Every single thing about Denethor
27. The dumb conversation that represents "The Last Debate"
28. Gollum's "crumbs" trick
29. Frodo sending Sam away
30. The mind-numbing "waking up in Minas Tirith" Hallmark horrible-fest
31. The mind-numbing Grey Havens hug fest
Well, you get the picture.
As a wise man once said, PJ paints a Mona Lisa, then scribbles smiley faces, and pours hot velveeta, all over it.
-SA
P.S. I do have to strongly disagree about Theodred's funeral scene. Eowyn's song seems awkward primarily because she does not sing in a mode that is comfortable for modern audiences. And though it may cause discomfort, it is not quite "cheesy." I found it very effective.
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aruman
Ossiriand
Oct 14 2012, 9:36pm
Post #43 of 57
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"- Eowyn's song at Theodred's funeral (man, that was painful. I fast forward through it every time I watch)."
I was just wondering last time I watched TTT...how does the actress ever watch that part? Painful, very painful.
In the movies Elrond, Denethor, Haldir, Galadriel, and Celeborn stink.
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aruman
Ossiriand
Oct 14 2012, 9:36pm
Post #44 of 57
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...Ga-a-andaalf?
Also, all of Gimli's jokes.
In the movies Elrond, Denethor, Haldir, Galadriel, and Celeborn stink.
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aruman
Ossiriand
Oct 14 2012, 9:40pm
Post #45 of 57
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Although, to be fair, Frodo/Sam's friendship in the book might seem cheesy in this day and age 
In the movies Elrond, Denethor, Haldir, Galadriel, and Celeborn stink.
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Shelob'sAppetite
Doriath
Oct 15 2012, 3:18am
Post #46 of 57
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The rhythm of the song is simply not one that is very familiar to a modern audience, so it seems awkward. However, I would be curious to hear what you find particularly objectionable about the scene.
Also, though I can understand not liking the song, the scenery and cinematography during that sequence are, IMO, some of the best in all three films. It just feels like Tolkien.
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zarabia
Dor-Lomin
Oct 15 2012, 5:18am
Post #47 of 57
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Agreed , no dairy products in sight here
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I think this scene is quite appropriate to the situation and is consistent with the culture that had been established for the Rohirrim. The funereal song, and Eowyn's emotion, seemed authentic. I thought it was beautifully done.
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zarabia
Dor-Lomin
Oct 15 2012, 5:26am
Post #48 of 57
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I don't mind the Uruk Hai at Helm's Deep. There are a couple of moments that are silly, but overall, I thought The Battle at Helm's Deep and the Uruks part in it were effective. It's when they are squabbling with the Mordor orcs and complaining about "maggo'y bread" that they lose their aura of menace and seem campy.
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aruman
Ossiriand
Oct 15 2012, 3:08pm
Post #49 of 57
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Really sorry to sound so shallow...
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I just didn't enjoy listening to Eowyn's singing voice...so not really cheesy I guess, just painful.
In the movies Elrond, Denethor, Haldir, Galadriel, and Celeborn stink.
(This post was edited by aruman on Oct 15 2012, 3:09pm)
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aruman
Ossiriand
Oct 15 2012, 3:11pm
Post #50 of 57
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Here we see some of the inherent challenges in bringing LOTR to the silver screen. The stew scene was lame, cheesy, and most Un-Tolkien-esque IMHO, but I also feel like you pretty much need some stuff like that in the movie, to help capture modern audiences.
In the movies Elrond, Denethor, Haldir, Galadriel, and Celeborn stink.
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