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Lieutenant of Dol Guldur
Mithlond
Oct 9 2012, 11:49am
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How we gonna notice "The Rise of the Necromancer" (possibly spoilers)
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As you all know at the moment we are drowned with new images and information about orcs, goblins and other evil creatures of The Hobbit trilogy. And the more we learn about them the merrier I start to compare them to the ones of the Lord of the Rings trilogy. In an interview with someone Peter Jackson told us that now he's doing three films he's able to tell us more about "The Rise of the Necromancer". Here is my theory how we gonna notice it while watching the AUJ, DOS and TABA without seeing much of Sauron himself. Let's compare some of the evil races of AUJ to their counterparts of LOTR:
Goblins of AUJ:
No armor (loincloth), no heavy weapons (whips, wooden spears, knives). Obviously they're living in their own civilization [Goblin Town] with their own ruler [Great Goblin]. Very independant if you ask me. And everything looks hastily cobbled together. No wizard or Dark Lord behind them.
Goblins of LOTR:
Uniform armor, forged weapons and armor (shields, chainmail, helmets, swords...). They're in Moria because they were sent there to destroy the dwarven realm of Khazad-dûm by Sauron.
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Orcs of AUJ:
Fimbul, Bolg and Yazneg are serving Sauron but are wearing skin or bones as their armor rather than chainmails, corslets or forged things. Perhaps Sauron wasn't able to rebuild his industries and forges yet? Everything looks very savage. Although they serve Sauron it seems that they're also fighting their personal conflicts (Azog-Thorin-Dain-Bolg). It seems that they still have a bit of their free mind left.
Orcs of LOTR:
Orcs of Mordor and Isengard are wearing heavy armor and weapons forged in their own industries. Orcs and Uruk-Hai look more improved, more disciplined (for orc standards) and every orc follows only one goal: To destroy the world of Men, Elves and all the Free People on behalf of their master. No real sign of an own mind.
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Wargs of AUJ:
They're looking more like animals and independant beasts than bred creatures. They're looking like allies but not servants. Also they seem to have their own primitive language and a kind of "society" with a leader [white She-Wolf].
Wargs of LOTR:
They're looking more like bred war maschines than animals. More improved, stronger and obedient. Following the orders of Sauron and Saruman.
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Trolls of AUJ:
They've got names, they've got the ability to speak and they seem to be independant too. They're living their own lifes and are not serving anybody. They kill if they're hungry and not on behalf of a dark lord.
Trolls of LOTR:
Obedient and improved bred elite-warriors in Saurons armies. No own mind, no speaking. Armoured and ready to fight everybody who stands against their master.
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All in all: I think we gonna see how all of these evil races are losing their independence during The Hobbit trilogy one by one. Perhaps we see what Saruman tells Gandalf in FOTR: "He is gathering all evil to him. Very soon he will summon an army great enough to launch an assault upon Middle earth". I think that's how we're going to notice "The Rise of the Necromancer" while watching The Hobbit trilogy without seeing much of Sauron himself. We will see the development of his servants and their loss of independence. Sauron would be still more the incarnation of evil and growing darkness than an actual single person. But that's just a theory.
"There is only one Lord of the Ring, only one who can bend it to his will. And he does not share power."
(This post was edited by Lieutenant of Dol Guldur on Oct 9 2012, 11:58am)
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DanielLB
Elvenhome
Oct 9 2012, 11:58am
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Great post, and well thought out
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The only comment I have to make is about the trolls. Tom, Bert and William are a completely different "species" of troll to the ones seen in the LOTR trilogy.
They are Stone Trolls, and probably more "aware" than the Cave Troll, Mountain Trolls and Olog-hai shown in the LOTR trilogy. That isn't necessarily evidence of Sauron having greater control over Trolls during the LOTR. I bet we'll be seeing more Trolls during the BO5A though.
Other than that, I think this would be a great way of showing Sauron's growing power - orcs, goblins, wargs and trolls slowly coming together under his dominion.
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(This post was edited by DanielLB on Oct 9 2012, 12:00pm)
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Lieutenant of Dol Guldur
Mithlond
Oct 9 2012, 12:04pm
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Thank you!
I know that the three are Stone Trolls and the ones in LOTR are different species. But it is the same with the different species of orc. I think that all trolls belong to the "evil races" of ME therefore they "belong" to Sauron/Morgoth too. IF they wouldn't have become stone statues they would have followed Sauron, wouldn't they?
"There is only one Lord of the Ring, only one who can bend it to his will. And he does not share power."
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stoutfiles
Nargothrond
Oct 9 2012, 12:07pm
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If only to avoid death by his hand. Those three trolls had it pretty good, I doubt they would want to submit to a ruler and go to war unless forced to.
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Lieutenant of Dol Guldur
Mithlond
Oct 9 2012, 12:10pm
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Doesn't he controls their minds?
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I always thought that they all (orcs, goblins, trolls etc.) follow him because he controls their minds after growing more powerful? Not because they're frightened of him.
"There is only one Lord of the Ring, only one who can bend it to his will. And he does not share power."
(This post was edited by Lieutenant of Dol Guldur on Oct 9 2012, 12:10pm)
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Lieutenant of Dol Guldur
Mithlond
Oct 9 2012, 12:19pm
Post #7 of 40
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To be bred or not be bred... that's the question
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Well, perhaps he has not yet the control over their minds because Stone Trolls aren't acually bred by him or one of his minions as the Olog-Hai are? Stone Trolls aren't "made by" Sauron that makes them more independent till he got the Ring to control everybodies mind? Maybe that's why Bolg, Fimbul, Azog and their orcs are already following Sauron because they're creations of him. All the other races are following later. Makes sense to me.
"There is only one Lord of the Ring, only one who can bend it to his will. And he does not share power."
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stoutfiles
Nargothrond
Oct 9 2012, 12:23pm
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They even had free will under Morgoth and hated him, they were just forced to follow his command under his presence or one of his agents. It's like back in the day where soldiers were instructed to shoot their fellow soldiers should they retreat. Group mentality means everyone is following Sauron orders, even if few want to. Remember that Gorbag and Shagrat wanted to sneak off and live a life without being under control.
The big thing Sauron had going for him, other than fear, is that his goals were very similar to the races he recruited so it wasn't too difficult to control them, or rather, unite them under his cause similar to what Hitler did.
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Mr. Arkenstone (isaac)
Dor-Lomin
Oct 9 2012, 12:58pm
Post #9 of 40
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And is not fear a way to control a mind?
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I can not guarantee his safety - understood...
Nor will I be responsible for his fate - Doh!
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Mr. Arkenstone (isaac)
Dor-Lomin
Oct 9 2012, 1:03pm
Post #10 of 40
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Would have been one of the most delightfull scenes to be seen on films
I can not guarantee his safety - understood...
Nor will I be responsible for his fate - Doh!
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comandantedavid
Lindon
Oct 9 2012, 2:43pm
Post #11 of 40
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I would not be surprised if something like this is in the works. Even without any more explicit plot along these lines, the visuals alone (that you've described) communicate something.
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Elessar
Doriath
Oct 9 2012, 3:09pm
Post #12 of 40
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Thank you for laying that out and I agree 100% with what you said in how we will see the progression.
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Lieutenant of Dol Guldur
Mithlond
Oct 9 2012, 3:14pm
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Development within the trilogy
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And I wouldn't be surprised if the orcs/goblins during the Battle of the Five Armies are gonna wear some hybrid-armor. Something between the heavy Mordor-uniform-armor and these savage built-out-of-everything-we-could-find-armor. And perhaps we gonna see some of the bred wargs (looking more like the TTT ones). It would be a clear indication for Gandalf and the White Council that Sauron is back.
Orcs, goblins and other evil creatures joined their forces against dwarves, men and elves, spiders attack Rhosgobel, the Nazgûl escaped their tomb... who needs more clues? ;)
"There is only one Lord of the Ring, only one who can bend it to his will. And he does not share power."
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Captain Salt
Dor-Lomin
Oct 9 2012, 3:29pm
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Yes, good thougths and I agree...
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Also, the fate of Thrain and the return of (a possibly undead) Azog I think will feature in AUJ.
Agreed that the rise/gathering of evil and corruption of ME will occur progressively through the trilogy, so that Sauron will have consolidated his power, though his defeat at Dol Guldur will most likely be somewhat of a set back for him. Had this not happened, I think TH needs to stress the War of the Ring would have happened much sooner, with the Free Peoples given much less time to prepare.
My Top 5 Wish List for "The Hobbit"
5. Legolas will surf down Smaug's neck
4. Bilbo will be revealed to a Robot
3. Naked PJ cameo as Ghan-Buri-Ghan
2. Use of not only 3D, but smell-o-vision, plus the inclusion of axes coming out of the seats and poking the audience when appropriate
1. Not only keep the claim that Thorin & Co. ran amok in Mirkwood "molesting people", but depict said incident in vivid detail!!!!!
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Fàfnir
Nargothrond
Oct 9 2012, 4:52pm
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Yes, but orcs are quite different from the book in the movies. //
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Any sign of intelligence, free will or personality have been deleted from the book. Orc dialogues and intrigues are delightful in the books, but maybe making the orcs too human would have make the movie too hard for children, since tens of them are killed every minute. That's maybe why they portrayed them as brainless cannibalistic psychos.
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Mooseboy018
Hithlum
Oct 9 2012, 6:26pm
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I wouldn't say all of their free will and personality were taken out. It's certainly toned down compared to the book, but I felt that characters like Ugluk and Gorbag had pretty distinct personalities and seemed to have a mind of their own for the most part. They weren't all like Lurtz.
And I don't see why they would be concerned about children seeing orcs getting killed. Plenty of elves and humans are slaughtered throughout the movies, and children were far from the movies' target audience anyway.
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Lieutenant of Dol Guldur
Mithlond
Oct 9 2012, 7:19pm
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Own personalities YES... following their own goals NO
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Well, I see what the point with the orcs and their own personality is. And I also see the differences between book and film. But this is a film-based post so we just can take the film versions of the orcs. They have their own personality but not their own will and they're not following their own goals in secret. Let's have a look: Which personalities do we have? (I just take the ones with names)
FOTR:
Lurtz - Uruk-Hai and totally loyal to Saruman. I think he just does as Saruman told him and won't does anything else than his master wants.
TTT:
Uglúk - Uruk-Hai and totally loyal to Saruman. Even when his men are hungry he would never disregard Sarumans orders (so do all the other Uruk-Hai)
Grishnákh - Orc from [Book: Barad-Dûr; Movie: possibly Isengard] follows orders as well but when he got hungry his primitive needs go first --> But it's not an own mind. Just primitive needs. In the book he wants the Ring if I remember correctly. In the movie he just wants meat. (so do all the other orcs of his group)
ROTK:
Gothmog - Orc of Minas Morgul. Totally loyal to the Witch-King. He talks something about "The era of orc is coming" but in fact it's the era of his masters. He has got his fun with killing the men in Gondor. He's the leader of the biggest army of orc in ME but a own mind? Nope.
Shagrat - Black Uruk of Cirith Ungol. Totally loyal to the "Great Eye" even the film is a bit confusing. First he wants the mithril shirt of Frodo for himself afterwards he brings it to his master in Barad-Dûr. But in the end he is totally loyal.
Gorbag - Orc of Minas Morgul. Actually he ist also totally loyal to Sauron although (as Grishnákh) his primitive needs go first. He wants this shiny shirt of Frodo but just because of his needs not because he has got his own goals.
All in all: The orcs in the Lord of the Rings movie trilogy are obedient servants of Sauron. The orcs of the Lord of the Rings books are not. But because we're talking about the Hobbit movie trilogy it might be that way I descriped and that all of them follow Sauron when he becomes more powerful not because he has the same or similar goals than orcs, trolls, goblins or wargs, they follow him because of his god-like status, because he controls them in some way (through fear or something else). And that's why I think it's obviously that they gonna follow him without asking for their own terms. Not all of them in AUJ he lose that power after his defeat against the Last Alliance but later within the Hobbit trilogy when his power grows. Perhaps all of them (as Saruman and except the Nazgûl) are thinking that they're following their own goals but actually it's Sauron who let them think that way because he controls their minds. They were all manipulated by him.
"There is only one Lord of the Ring, only one who can bend it to his will. And he does not share power."
(This post was edited by Lieutenant of Dol Guldur on Oct 9 2012, 7:27pm)
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MouthofSauron
Dor-Lomin
Oct 10 2012, 3:49am
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was not the necromancer (sauron) at dol-guldur for hundreds of years before the white council kicked him out? so you would think the dark lord could find some armor lying around for the goblins under his dominion? as far as the ones in the misty mountains, there must have been some interaction in those hundreds of years between them and the forces at dol-guldur? I have a feeling PJ will make some connection between the two orc havens.
Owned.
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AinurOlorin
Gondolin
Oct 10 2012, 4:42am
Post #19 of 40
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A lot of strong points in what you are saying, except for the Khazad-Dum bit. The Balrog,
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a.k.a Durin's Bane, had already destroyed the realm of Khazad-Dum rather effectively all on his own. The Goblins were sent by Sauron to populate Moria and make it a fully manned kingdom of evil, doubtless from which to launch part of his war against Lothlorien, which had long been his original intent and was Gandalf's chief worry when he discovered Sauron's identity. But Khazad-Dum was completely overthrown by The Balrog centuries before orcs began to populate there. Indeed, Sauron had been unable to overwhelm Moria from without, and it was only after The Balrog emptied it that it became accessible to that other evil Maia. As you all know at the moment we are drowned with new images and information about orcs, goblins and other evil creatures of The Hobbit trilogy. And the more we learn about them the merrier I start to compare them to the ones of the Lord of the Rings trilogy. In an interview with someone Peter Jackson told us that now he's doing three films he's able to tell us more about "The Rise of the Necromancer". Here is my theory how we gonna notice it while watching the AUJ, DOS and TABA without seeing much of Sauron himself. Let's compare some of the evil races of AUJ to their counterparts of LOTR:
Goblins of AUJ:
No armor (loincloth), no heavy weapons (whips, wooden spears, knives). Obviously they're living in their own civilization [Goblin Town] with their own ruler [Great Goblin]. Very independant if you ask me. And everything looks hastily cobbled together. No wizard or Dark Lord behind them.
Goblins of LOTR:
Uniform armor, forged weapons and armor (shields, chainmail, helmets, swords...). They're in Moria because they were sent there to destroy the dwarven realm of Khazad-dûm by Sauron.
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Orcs of AUJ:
Fimbul, Bolg and Yazneg are serving Sauron but are wearing skin or bones as their armor rather than chainmails, corslets or forged things. Perhaps Sauron wasn't able to rebuild his industries and forges yet? Everything looks very savage. Although they serve Sauron it seems that they're also fighting their personal conflicts (Azog-Thorin-Dain-Bolg). It seems that they still have a bit of their free mind left.
Orcs of LOTR:
Orcs of Mordor and Isengard are wearing heavy armor and weapons forged in their own industries. Orcs and Uruk-Hai look more improved, more disciplined (for orc standards) and every orc follows only one goal: To destroy the world of Men, Elves and all the Free People on behalf of their master. No real sign of an own mind.
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Wargs of AUJ:
They're looking more like animals and independant beasts than bred creatures. They're looking like allies but not servants. Also they seem to have their own primitive language and a kind of "society" with a leader [white She-Wolf].
Wargs of LOTR:
They're looking more like bred war maschines than animals. More improved, stronger and obedient. Following the orders of Sauron and Saruman.
-----
Trolls of AUJ:
They've got names, they've got the ability to speak and they seem to be independant too. They're living their own lifes and are not serving anybody. They kill if they're hungry and not on behalf of a dark lord.
Trolls of LOTR:
Obedient and improved bred elite-warriors in Saurons armies. No own mind, no speaking. Armoured and ready to fight everybody who stands against their master.
-----
All in all: I think we gonna see how all of these evil races are losing their independence during The Hobbit trilogy one by one. Perhaps we see what Saruman tells Gandalf in FOTR: "He is gathering all evil to him. Very soon he will summon an army great enough to launch an assault upon Middle earth". I think that's how we're going to notice "The Rise of the Necromancer" while watching The Hobbit trilogy without seeing much of Sauron himself. We will see the development of his servants and their loss of independence. Sauron would be still more the incarnation of evil and growing darkness than an actual single person. But that's just a theory.
"Hear me, hounds of Sauron, Gandalf is here! Fly if you value your foul skins, I will shrivel you from tail to snout if you step within this circle!"
"Do not be to eager to deal out death in judgement. Even the very wise cannot see all ends."
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stoutfiles
Nargothrond
Oct 10 2012, 12:22pm
Post #20 of 40
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You just killed your own theory with some of these orcs
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They certainly do have free will in the movies, but you just named a small group of orcs, mostly high ranking ones, and declared that ALL orcs are the same because some of this small group is loyal.
No, most of them are like Grishnákh; they follow orders out of fear and/or similar goals, but will do whatever they want if the chance is given to them. A perfectly loyal orc without free will would not kill orcs that Sauron/Saruman wanted alive.
What about Shagrat and Gorbag fighting over Frodo's mythril? One wanted it to go to Sauron, but the other wanted to keep it for himself. Is that not free will? Free will: ability to make choices free from certain kinds of constraints. Clearly Sauron would want the mythril, but one of the orcs didn't care and wanted it for himself. That is free will. If the orcs had no free will, they would never fight amongst themselves, as that would never be Sauron's will.
The only reason the movie doesn't show their free will as often as the books is that you only have X minutes to work with, and those minutes aren't best spent trying to sympathize with orcs that may not want to be in this war.
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Sinister71
Dor-Lomin
Oct 10 2012, 12:39pm
Post #21 of 40
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Personally I don't see why all the Orcs need to be involved with Sauron to begin with...
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seems like a stretch to me  ... Plus IMO makes middle earth seem ridiculously small if all the bad guys in it are linked to only one evil enforcer. 
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elevorn
Menegroth
Oct 10 2012, 1:59pm
Post #22 of 40
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reading the end of the SIL last night about the white council and how Gandalf and eventually Saruman agreed that with more time sauron's power would grow ring or no ring so long as it existed, and since he didn't have the ring in LOTR and still controlled the orcs, its entirely probable.
"clever hobbits to climb so high!"
Check out my writing www.jdstudios.wordpress.com
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Fàfnir
Nargothrond
Oct 10 2012, 2:15pm
Post #23 of 40
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Sauron and Morgoth created them.
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There is as strong connexion between Sauron and every orc in middle earth. He's their natural master, they multiply when his power grows and in the end his fall drives them mad. I don't think they can free themselves from the dark lords influences, even when they seem independant.
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Lieutenant of Dol Guldur
Mithlond
Oct 10 2012, 2:21pm
Post #24 of 40
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I think you missed my point...
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I didn't kill it I just complemented it. 
When I speak of "free will" or "own goals" I'm talking about having their own plans, their own interests. Yes they want to kill or eat prisoners, yes some of them want to have shiny things they aren't allowed to have. But no orc would ever start a rebellion. No orc would ever bring any of Saurons orders into question. Why? Only because they fear him? And please don't use that Hitler-comparison (as someone else did before). The orc-race were not seduced by Sauron or Morgoth. The Dark Lords created the orc-race as a stupid obedient servant-group to follow their orders without question. There was no economy crisis in orc-land, there were no bad conditions for the orcs. Of course all of them feared their masters. And of course they are not all controlled by Sauron directly. But he controls some of their leaders (Mouth, Nazgûl and a lot more) and they control the lower servants. And fighting among eachother is not a real threat for Saurons goals. Men do kill eachother too because of envy or similar "reasons". When he doesn't need them they can do whatever they want but when he calls them, they have to follow and they do.
Metaphorically speaking: The rough marching direction is clear from the beginning to end. No orc would ever change that rough direction. In order that even small targeted goals become accomplishhable Sauron has got his completely loyal servants (Mouth, Nazgûl, special trained Uruks etc) who redirect the big bulk of orc and other servants.
They are a primitive race and have of course their primitive needs. They're no robots. If you thought that this was my intention I'm very sorry. But they do not follow him because he promised them a perfect orc-world. They follow him because they have to. They love to kill and to destroy. They love to pillage and to burn everything down. But why do they love all these tings? Because Morgoth (and Sauron) created them that way. And why? Because it would make them the perfect slaves and warriors.
Again: Perhaps all of them (as Saruman and except the Nazgûl) are thinking that they're following their own goals and needs but actually it's Sauron who let them think that way because he controls their minds in a way. They were all manipulated by him. They were all CREATED by him.
"There is only one Lord of the Ring, only one who can bend it to his will. And he does not share power."
(This post was edited by Lieutenant of Dol Guldur on Oct 10 2012, 2:28pm)
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Fàfnir
Nargothrond
Oct 10 2012, 2:43pm
Post #25 of 40
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All evil in middle earth comes from the dissonance of Melkor's singing in Eru's song. That's why the dark lords can control anyone who turn evil, because evil acts just are always according to this part of the song. Orcs, saruman, Smaug or Grima are serving Sauron's plan just like he predicts because when they're leaded by hate or envy they just accord themselves to Melkor's song, that no one better than Sauron knows. Evil beings have no secret for the dark lords, and they condemn themselves to servitude to them.
At least that's my theory.
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