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The One Ring Forums: Tolkien Topics: Movie Discussion: The Hobbit:
Benedict Cumberbatch on The Necromancer
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Eye's on Guard
Lorien


Oct 8 2012, 1:33am

Post #26 of 66 (1035 views)
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Well, here's one bold guess... [In reply to] Can't Post

Smaug the Necromancer


In Reply To
If "Benedict has performed motion capture for The Necromancer in The Hobbit trilogy"... and it seems to be that way, we will see a kind of physical appearance of Sauron in The Hobbit. That meens he'll be there "in person" not just a spirit without a body. We'll not just hear his voice, we actually will see him and that makes it interesting. Great news!!

I also think it is kind of strange that Smaug and Sauron are played and voiced by the same guy. I love Benedict! He's a great actor and has a great voice, and sure he got the parts because of his voice BUT Smaug and Sauron won't have the same voice what means, that either Saurons or Smaugs voice by Cumberbatch will be highly changed. Question: Why didn't they just took another actor? Or are they going to have a similar voice and that's why one actor plays both parts? Or is Sauron going to speak with Smaugs voice to frighten/unsettle his enemies?



Finrod
Rohan


Oct 8 2012, 1:47am

Post #27 of 66 (984 views)
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On animals [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
it's because, despite them both being reptiles, dinosaurs and dragons are very different. It would make sense to study birds and animals for dinosaurs. But dragons are majestic, fantastic and glorious. To have the dragon mo-capped makes sense because he will move in a more glorious and, for want of a better word, graceful way, something dinosaurs don't do.


Last I checked, birds actually are animals.

As for dinosaurs, I dont see why they would not have been graceful. After all, the surviving ones certainly can be.

They can also be very frightening. Just have an ostrich stare you in the face from a couple feet away, and hope he likes you.

I doubt Komodo dragons are much like dinosaurs, by the way. Dinosaurs werent lizards any more than an ostrich is a lizard.

…all eyes looked upon the ring; for he held it now aloft, and the green jewels gleamed there that the Noldor had devised in Valinor. For this ring was like to twin serpents, whose eyes were emeralds, and their heads met beneath a crown of golden flowers, that the one upheld and the other devoured; that was the badge of Finarfin and his house.
The Silmarillion, pp 150-151
while Felagund laughs beneath the trees
in Valinor and comes no more
to this grey world of tears and war.
The Lays of Beleriand, p 311




Captain Salt
Tol Eressea


Oct 8 2012, 2:48am

Post #28 of 66 (926 views)
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Not to mention I'd expect they'd be majestic, fantastic and glorious! [In reply to] Can't Post

The difference IMO, is that the dinosaurs in Jurassic Park were in fact portrayed as animals...Smaug is a character who has to display an intelligence similar to that of Man, not to mention probably being visibly articulate (meaning I don't think they'd go with a telepathic approach ALA Eragon). It's the same reason why the Necromancer, Gollum and the Goblin King are mo-cap, while the Wargs, Mukakil, Fell Beasts ETC were not.

I wonder if the Stone Trolls were mo-capped...one would assume so. However, I have no idea why the Avatar Banshees or something similar would make use of the process...that just seems like over-doing, IMO.

My Top 5 Wish List for "The Hobbit"
5. Legolas will surf down Smaug's neck
4. Bilbo will be revealed to a Robot
3. Naked PJ cameo as Ghan-Buri-Ghan
2. Use of not only 3D, but smell-o-vision, plus the inclusion of axes coming out of the seats and poking the audience when appropriate
1. Not only keep the claim that Thorin & Co. ran amok in Mirkwood "molesting people", but depict said incident in vivid detail!!!!!


Phibbus
Rohan


Oct 8 2012, 3:15am

Post #29 of 66 (957 views)
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I have a theory [In reply to] Can't Post

That the cast role for Lees as "voice of the Necromancer" has been misinterpreted (or deliberately obscured.) I think Lees is playing the Mouth of Sauron, but they can't call him the Mouth of Sauron because we aren't supposed to know that it's Sauron, yet. Thus it should read "Voice of the Necromancer."

Original speculation here. Note that the helmet of Bruce Spence's Mouth of Sauron costume was inscribed with the Sindarin "lammen gorthaur," which is, literally "Voice of the Necromancer."

Man is but an ass if he go about to expound this dream.


GoodGuyA
Lorien

Oct 8 2012, 4:24am

Post #30 of 66 (909 views)
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That seems... Even more pointless then some of the other cameos [In reply to] Can't Post

I must admit, I'm a bit of a fan of the Mouth of Sauron. Just that great description from Tolkien of how he was once a man but then became twisted. The design in the film was one of the coolest armor designs I've ever seen, and it was such a short scene that they went to so much trouble to film. It only wound up in the Extended Edition though, so I don't see the purpose of trying to bridge that gap, especially since his purpose is literally moot in the film when reinserted. A lot of trouble for little payoff, even if it was just a small piece.


DanielLB
Immortal


Oct 8 2012, 7:11am

Post #31 of 66 (1007 views)
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Mo-capping the Necromancer [In reply to] Can't Post

A lot of the "creatures" in The Hobbit seem to be CGI, in comparison to the LOTR trilogy. I'm happy for the Necromancer to be mo-capped *if* he doesn't have a humanoid form. If it's just a man in a some armour, they shouldn't have gone for CGI.

Want Hobbit Movie News? Hobbit Headlines of the Week!



Fardragon
Rohan

Oct 8 2012, 7:34am

Post #32 of 66 (876 views)
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Dinosaurs aren't reptiles [In reply to] Can't Post

They are dinosaurs.

And one of the most distinct differences is in how they move.

A Far Dragon is the best kind...


DanielLB
Immortal


Oct 8 2012, 7:42am

Post #33 of 66 (906 views)
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Who voiced the Mouth of Sauron [In reply to] Can't Post

I know Bruce Spence was in the costume, but did he also provide the voice? I can't seem to recall anything, and google doesn't come up with anything helpful?

Want Hobbit Movie News? Hobbit Headlines of the Week!



redgiraffe
Rohan

Oct 8 2012, 9:50am

Post #34 of 66 (882 views)
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MoS [In reply to] Can't Post

I'm pretty sure it was Bruce Spence who voiced him as well. I think they just manipulated the audio to make it sound different. I don't see why they would go through the trouble of having him play the Mouth of Sauron and yet not have his voice included in the film when they could have just stuck the "real" voice in the role. So I'm pretty sure it was Spence's voice.

-Sir are you classified as human
-Negative, I am a meat-popsicle


Phibbus
Rohan


Oct 8 2012, 12:37pm

Post #35 of 66 (870 views)
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Voice [In reply to] Can't Post

I watched the scene recently for the first time. I had seen pics of the character, but I couldn't recall him from the theatrical release and had no idea that it was Spence. In the scene, I can just barely make out that it's him. I'm pretty certain it's his voice, albeit altered almost as much as his features. He uses an accent, and they have heavy effects on it.

They also have the mouth itself (which appears to be an attempt at exaggerating one of Spence's most distinguishing features) motion-altered to creepily accentuate the act of speaking. I may be misinterpreting, but it seemed to me they were trying to produce the effect that the words were coming from elsewhere, as if Sauron were actually speaking directly through the warped man (and I wonder if this is the origin of the rumored scene of Aragorn actually fighting Sauron at the gate.) All things considered, I think they should have left the scene in.

GoedGuyA's point of "why bother" is taken. However, I think the character as depicted has the creepy, almost Clive Barker aura that Jackson will be shooting for with the Dol Guldur content (Yazneg has the same feel, to me ). I also have a feeling we won't be seeing a single incarnation of the Necromancer (which would raise the issue of why doesn't he take form in LotR) but various "aspects" of him, and I think the Mouth may fit into such a scheme..

Man is but an ass if he go about to expound this dream.


dave_lf
Gondor

Oct 8 2012, 12:51pm

Post #36 of 66 (887 views)
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Dinosaurs (subset of) Reptiles [In reply to] Can't Post

Dinosaurs are reptiles. Dinosauria is a clade under class Reptilia (which is simply the catch-all class for amniotes that are neither mammals nor birds).

Edit: TORN doesn't like the "subset of" symbol.


(This post was edited by dave_lf on Oct 8 2012, 12:51pm)


Spaldron
Rivendell


Oct 8 2012, 2:28pm

Post #37 of 66 (799 views)
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Mouth of Sauron [In reply to] Can't Post


Quote
I know Bruce Spence was in the costume, but did he also provide the voice? I can't seem to recall anything, and google doesn't come up with anything helpful?


I'm pretty sure it isn't Spence's voice, even manipulated. The accents and vocal rhythms are completely different to his own voice which btw you can hear his original voice on the EE Appendices Disc 2.

MoS voice has kind of an Eastern European accent to it imo.

"A single dream is more powerful than a thousand realities."


Spaldron
Rivendell


Oct 8 2012, 2:30pm

Post #38 of 66 (872 views)
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Spence's Gob. [In reply to] Can't Post


Quote
They also have the mouth itself (which appears to be an attempt at exaggerating one of Spence's most distinguishing features) motion-altered to creepily accentuate the act of speaking.


They simply enlarged the Mouth to make it look just an extra bit scarier. At one point they had the Mouth sideways in post-production.

I also like the "Voice of the Necromancer." theory.

"A single dream is more powerful than a thousand realities."

(This post was edited by Spaldron on Oct 8 2012, 2:31pm)


Phibbus
Rohan


Oct 8 2012, 3:11pm

Post #39 of 66 (771 views)
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It occurs to me [In reply to] Can't Post

That Lees also has the advantage of bearing an uncanny resemblance to former incarnation of the character...



Man is but an ass if he go about to expound this dream.


Fardragon
Rohan

Oct 8 2012, 3:13pm

Post #40 of 66 (799 views)
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That's because the classification system is seriously out of date. [In reply to] Can't Post

Modern research points to dinosaurs having very little in common with modern reptiles.

A Far Dragon is the best kind...


DanielLB
Immortal


Oct 8 2012, 3:15pm

Post #41 of 66 (779 views)
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Spooky! / [In reply to] Can't Post

 

Want Hobbit Movie News? Hobbit Headlines of the Week!



Captain Salt
Tol Eressea


Oct 8 2012, 4:15pm

Post #42 of 66 (725 views)
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That's correct, Dinosaurs are now largely considered to be neither reptiles nor birds, but their own specific clade inbetween. // [In reply to] Can't Post

 

My Top 5 Wish List for "The Hobbit"
5. Legolas will surf down Smaug's neck
4. Bilbo will be revealed to a Robot
3. Naked PJ cameo as Ghan-Buri-Ghan
2. Use of not only 3D, but smell-o-vision, plus the inclusion of axes coming out of the seats and poking the audience when appropriate
1. Not only keep the claim that Thorin & Co. ran amok in Mirkwood "molesting people", but depict said incident in vivid detail!!!!!


Captain Salt
Tol Eressea


Oct 8 2012, 4:19pm

Post #43 of 66 (746 views)
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If they're bringing Bret McKenzie back, I don't see why they wouldn't bring Bruce Spence back...? [In reply to] Can't Post

Though Lees does look eerily similar to the animated MoS in that pic.

However, it seems that the Necromancer will appear in some physical form, as otherwise why would BC being providing mo-cap for it? So, when Sauron was a flaming eyeball, it made sense for him to have an intermediary through which he could communicate with others...but if the Necro has taken form in TH, why would he need someone to articulate his will for him?

My Top 5 Wish List for "The Hobbit"
5. Legolas will surf down Smaug's neck
4. Bilbo will be revealed to a Robot
3. Naked PJ cameo as Ghan-Buri-Ghan
2. Use of not only 3D, but smell-o-vision, plus the inclusion of axes coming out of the seats and poking the audience when appropriate
1. Not only keep the claim that Thorin & Co. ran amok in Mirkwood "molesting people", but depict said incident in vivid detail!!!!!

(This post was edited by Captain Salt on Oct 8 2012, 4:21pm)


Captain Salt
Tol Eressea


Oct 8 2012, 4:20pm

Post #44 of 66 (730 views)
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It sounded like Spence to me...to quote the exchange between Liv and Steven Tyler... [In reply to] Can't Post

Steven: Who's voice is that?

Liv: It's mine. I'm an actress!

Of course, that last part would have to be slightly modified in Bruce's case. Wink

My Top 5 Wish List for "The Hobbit"
5. Legolas will surf down Smaug's neck
4. Bilbo will be revealed to a Robot
3. Naked PJ cameo as Ghan-Buri-Ghan
2. Use of not only 3D, but smell-o-vision, plus the inclusion of axes coming out of the seats and poking the audience when appropriate
1. Not only keep the claim that Thorin & Co. ran amok in Mirkwood "molesting people", but depict said incident in vivid detail!!!!!


dave_lf
Gondor

Oct 8 2012, 5:13pm

Post #45 of 66 (737 views)
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Reptile = bad category [In reply to] Can't Post

Well; if the classification system were to be revised, then we'd probably need to get rid of the concept of reptiles altogether since it is phylogenetically incoherent.

But until someone does that, dinosaurs are still officially reptiles.


(This post was edited by dave_lf on Oct 8 2012, 5:16pm)


Ffnir
Rohan


Oct 8 2012, 5:41pm

Post #46 of 66 (688 views)
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In fact : [In reply to] Can't Post

All dinosaurs are reptiles, and all birds are dinosaurs, if you class them phylogenetically. The other way around doesn't work though.


Captain Salt
Tol Eressea


Oct 8 2012, 6:29pm

Post #47 of 66 (680 views)
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Well most scientists now admit that dinosaurs are distinct enough [In reply to] Can't Post

from reptiles to qualify as their own class. You don't see many warm-blooded, highly active reptiles covered in proto-feathers. And remember, reptiles co-existed and out-lived their dinosaur contemporaries, and always exhibited largely different appearance and behavior. Yes, they're still categorized as "reptiles", but as mentioned above, the system's out of date.

And technically, birds are descendants from a branch of dinosauria, namely family dromaeosauridae.

My Top 5 Wish List for "The Hobbit"
5. Legolas will surf down Smaug's neck
4. Bilbo will be revealed to a Robot
3. Naked PJ cameo as Ghan-Buri-Ghan
2. Use of not only 3D, but smell-o-vision, plus the inclusion of axes coming out of the seats and poking the audience when appropriate
1. Not only keep the claim that Thorin & Co. ran amok in Mirkwood "molesting people", but depict said incident in vivid detail!!!!!

(This post was edited by Captain Salt on Oct 8 2012, 6:31pm)


Ffnir
Rohan


Oct 8 2012, 6:39pm

Post #48 of 66 (693 views)
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There is two schools of classification. [In reply to] Can't Post

You either class from origins, or from ressemblance, but you can't mix them. It doesn't matter that dinosaur don't look like their cousins, they are from the same familly.


Finrod
Rohan


Oct 8 2012, 7:14pm

Post #49 of 66 (684 views)
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Reptilian birds [In reply to] Can't Post

Since all birds are dinosaurs and all dinosaurs are reptiles, it necessarily follows that all birds are reptiles.

Whoda thunk? Guess you really do learn something new every day!

And for my next trick, well prove that gerbils are goldfish.

…all eyes looked upon the ring; for he held it now aloft, and the green jewels gleamed there that the Noldor had devised in Valinor. For this ring was like to twin serpents, whose eyes were emeralds, and their heads met beneath a crown of golden flowers, that the one upheld and the other devoured; that was the badge of Finarfin and his house.
The Silmarillion, pp 150-151
while Felagund laughs beneath the trees
in Valinor and comes no more
to this grey world of tears and war.
The Lays of Beleriand, p 311




dave_lf
Gondor

Oct 8 2012, 7:27pm

Post #50 of 66 (657 views)
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That is precisely why "reptile" is a bad category [In reply to] Can't Post

A hypothetical phylogeny-based classification system would have a class for Amniotes and under that would be mammals, crocodiles, turtles, snakes, lizards, the two dinosaur groups, and several others as (roughly) equal siblings. Birds would go under one of the dinosaur groups.

Strictly speaking, the answer to that (apparent) contradiction is that under the existing classification system, it's true that all birds are descended from reptiles, but it's not true that they are reptiles.


(This post was edited by dave_lf on Oct 8 2012, 7:29pm)

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