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Saelind
Menegroth
Nov 2 2007, 12:05am
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Chapter 2 The Shadow of the Past V
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Sorry for no posts last night. I was at a Halloween gathering with some local Ringers.
Continuing from above and based on some posts in previous installments:
“’It is not, ‘said Frodo. ‘though I am not sure that I understand you. But how have you learned all this about the Ring, and about Gollum? Do you really know all, or are you just guessing still?’
Gandalf looked at Frodo, and his eyes glinted. ‘I knew much and I have learned much,’ he answered. ‘But I am not going to give an account of all my doings to you.’” Gandalf is definitely a bit testy here and Frodo is questioning Gandalf’s thought processes.
Gandalf relays the information he got out of Gollum. Gandalf was not a nice wizard when he dealt with Gollum. “’I endured him as long as I could but the truth was desperately important and in the end I had to be harsh. I put the fear of fire on him, and wrung the true story out of him, bit by bit, together with much sniveling and snarling.’” How would you have gotten the information out of Gollum? Are you surprised at Gandalf using the treat of violence to achieve his end?
One interesting tidbit I “discovered” when reading this chapter in preparation for this discussion was that Gollum had actually wandered as far as Esgoroth and Dale in search of information on Bilbo. I find it strange to picture Gollum lurking around the streets of Dale among other people. He is such a solitary creature in the book.
Also, Gandalf admits he made an error in judgment. “’But at the western edge of Mirkwood the trail turned away. It wandered off southwards and passed out of the Wood-elves ken and was lost. And then I made a great mistake. Yes, Frodo, and not the first; though I fear it may prove the worst. I let the matter be. I let him go; for I had much else to think of at the time, and I still trusted the lore of Saruman. Well, that was years ago. I have paid for it since with many dark and dangerous days.’”
So, Gandalf the Wise makes a bad decision and compounds by letting it go unammended for years! And while he may have paid for it with “many dark and dangerous days.”, it doesn’t excuse his complete underestimation of what Gollum was capable of. Agree or disagree?
I’ve enjoyed seeing a more “nuanced” Gandalf with this discussion than I have in the past.
We learn that Gollum was drawn to Mordor and captured by Sauron’s forces, tortured, and after revealing what he knew about the Ring, let go.
“’And he has at last heard, I think, of hobbits and the Shire.. The shire-he may be seeking for it now, if he has not already found out where it lies. Indeed, Frodo, I fear that he may even think the long-unnoticed name of Baggins has become important.’’’
Does it make sense that Sauron wouldn’t know about Hobbits or the Shire? After all, he’s been in Middle-earth for thousands of years!
“’But this is terrible!’ crided Frodo. ‘Far worse than the worst that I imagined from your hints and warnings. O Gandalf, best of friends, what am I to do? For now I am really afraid. What am I to do?’” What do you think was the worst that Frodo imagined?
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a.s.
Doriath
Nov 2 2007, 1:46am
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we got ahead of ourselves, didn't we? :-)
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Sorry for no posts last night. I was at a Halloween gathering with some local Ringers.
Well, of course real life partying with Ringers MUST come first! In fact, this will be my last post for the weekend (Curious, don't look so happy!) because I'm going to moot in Chicago!! Whoo hooo.
Continuing from above and based on some posts in previous installments:
“’It is not, ‘said Frodo. ‘though I am not sure that I understand you. But how have you learned all this about the Ring, and about Gollum? Do you really know all, or are you just guessing still?’
Gandalf looked at Frodo, and his eyes glinted. ‘I knew much and I have learned much,’ he answered. ‘But I am not going to give an account of all my doings to you.’” Gandalf is definitely a bit testy here and Frodo is questioning Gandalf’s thought processes.
Sorry, we did get a little ahead of you, didn't we? I apologize. This chapter is a very emotional one for me, I'm not entirely sure why but it gets worse each time I read it!
An early thanks for an interesting chapter discussion.
a.s.
"an seileachan"
"Nothing that is worth doing can be achieved in our lifetime; therefore we must be saved by hope. Nothing which is true or beautiful or good makes complete sense in any immediate context of history; therefore we must be saved by faith. Nothing we do, however virtuous, can be accomplished alone; therefore we must be saved by love."
~~~Reinhold Niebuhr
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Saelind
Menegroth
Nov 2 2007, 3:12am
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Thanks a.s. Have a great time in Chicago this weekend.
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N.E. Brigand
Gondolin
Nov 2 2007, 5:24am
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There was no "Shire" in Sauron's day.
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Does it make sense that Sauron wouldn't know about Hobbits or the Shire? After all, he's been in Middle-earth for thousands of years!
The Shire was only founded 1601 years after Sauron's defeat at the end of the Second Age. And from the prologue we know that Hobbits are obscure in origin, and only appeared in records beginning sometime in the Third Age
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We're discussing The Lord of the Rings in the Reading Room, Oct. 15, 2007 - Mar. 22, 2009!
Join us Oct. 29-Nov. 4 for "The Shadow of the Past".
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visualweasel
Nargothrond
Nov 2 2007, 4:16pm
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Ask Alberto Sackville-Gonzales
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How would you have gotten the information out of Gollum?
Waterboarding. (Sorry, but I couldn't resist. If you're particularly sensitve, you might not want to follow the Wikipedia link.)
Jason Fisher
Lingwë - Musings of a Fish
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Curious
Gondolin
Nov 2 2007, 4:35pm
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Gandalf is definitely a bit testy here and Frodo is questioning Gandalf’s thought processes.
And your question is? I love it when Frodo questions authority and Gandalf gets testy. It gives both of their characters depth. They are not just archetypes. Frodo has doubts throughout the tale, and Gandalf gets testy throughout the tale.
Gandalf gets testy because he has been asked to explain himself, and he doesn't work that way. Because Gandalf operates based on faith and hunches, much of what he does or advises others to do can look like folly, as he himself admits. Therefore he must appeal to Frodo's heart, and not just his mind. Frankly, one way he does this is to suggest that Frodo should go to Rivendell. That's something Frodo has always desired to do anyway.
How would you have gotten the information out of Gollum? Are you surprised at Gandalf using the treat of violence to achieve his end?
Hmm, do you suppose he used waterboarding? I'm sure whatever Gandalf did was not torture, and was not at all like what Gollum experienced in Mordor. I don't even think Gandalf threatened violence. What exactly is the "fear of fire"? Somehow I don't think Gandalf is talking about holding a torch to Gollum's feet.
I think Gandalf is talking about a more holy fire. I think Gandalf reveals himself to Gollum much as Glorfindel reveals himself to the Nazgul or Aragorn reveals himself to Sauron (and, to a lesser extent, to Eomer when they first meet) or Frodo reveals himself to Gollum in Sam's visions. Gollum glimpses what Gandalf looks like on the "other side," and I'm sure that's enough to make Gollum cower.
So, Gandalf the Wise makes a bad decision and compounds by letting it go unammended for years! And while he may have paid for it with “many dark and dangerous days.”, it doesn’t excuse his complete underestimation of what Gollum was capable of. Agree or disagree?
Agreed in part. Gandalf is certainly capable of mistakes. But his mistake was not a miscalculation of Gollum. Rather, Gandalf made the mistake of ignoring his own hunch that Gollum was important, and that Bilbo's ring was important, no matter what Saruman had said. It was not a lapse of reason but a lapse of faith.
Does it make sense that Sauron wouldn’t know about Hobbits or the Shire? After all, he’s been in Middle-earth for thousands of years!
No, of course it doesn't make sense that Sauron wouldn't know about hobbits or the Shire. On the other hand, perhaps Sauron knew of hobbits as we know of insects, but considered them about as important as insects. Did he not know that they existed, or did he not notice their existence, or care?
Or perhaps the hobbits are Guarded, and by more than Rangers. Sauron may not have heard of the Shire for the same reason Morgoth could not find Gondolin, despite overrunning the rest of Beleriand.
What do you think was the worst that Frodo imagined?
Well, Frodo might have imagined that he would have to leave the Shire, but might not have imagined that the Enemy knew his name and address and was on his way for a visit. I suppose the worst Frodo had imagined was an adventure more like Bilbo's, rather than fleeing the Shire with the Enemy in close pursuit.
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Darkstone
Elvenhome
Nov 2 2007, 9:13pm
Post #7 of 8
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andalf looked at Frodo, and his eyes glinted. ‘I knew much and I have learned much,’ he answered. ‘But I am not going to give an account of all my doings to you.’” Gandalf is definitely a bit testy here and Frodo is questioning Gandalf’s thought processes.
For some reason the question “What did you know, and when did you know it?” always seems to raise the hackles of powerful people.
Gandalf relays the information he got out of Gollum. Gandalf was not a nice wizard when he dealt with Gollum. “’I endured him as long as I could but the truth was desperately important and in the end I had to be harsh. I put the fear of fire on him, and wrung the true story out of him, bit by bit, together with much sniveling and snarling.’” How would you have gotten the information out of Gollum?
Standard interrogation techniques. Build a personal relationship ("You got a family?" "What sports do you like?") and offer small tokens of comfort (tobacco, chocolate, etc.), then ask direct questions. On the other hand threats will eventually get you the answers that you want, but those answers will not necessarily be the truth that you seek.
Are you surprised at Gandalf using the treat of violence to achieve his end?
Yeah. Isn’t he supposed to be the Maia of Dreams and a Master of Sanwe-latya? Seems like he could get it some other way. Torture is stupid. The vast majority of the time it only gets the answers that you want rather than the truth. I’m sure if he’d tortured him long enough he could have gotten Gollum to confess to murdering Isildur and stealing the simarils. Useless.
One interesting tidbit I “discovered” when reading this chapter in preparation for this discussion was that Gollum had actually wandered as far as Esgoroth and Dale in search of information on Bilbo. I find it strange to picture Gollum lurking around the streets of Dale among other people. He is such a solitary creature in the book.
Yeah, but maybe people who had seen Gollum were lurking around the streets of Dale. It's not like television where Starsky and Hutch go ask Huggy Bear for the word on the street and find out where the bad guy is. In reality you spend a lot of time and shoe leather asking lots and lots of ordinary people the same questions over and over again.
Also, Gandalf admits he made an error in judgment. “’But at the western edge of Mirkwood the trail turned away. It wandered off southwards and passed out of the Wood-elves ken and was lost. And then I made a great mistake. Yes, Frodo, and not the first; though I fear it may prove the worst. I let the matter be. I let him go; for I had much else to think of at the time, and I still trusted the lore of Saruman. Well, that was years ago. I have paid for it since with many dark and dangerous days.’”
So, Gandalf the Wise makes a bad decision and compounds by letting it go unammended for years! And while he may have paid for it with “many dark and dangerous days.”, it doesn’t excuse his complete underestimation of what Gollum was capable of. Agree or disagree?
Efficient time management technique. There's only one Wizard and only so many ways he can split his time. Sometimes you have to let some things go unfinished so you can finish the things you can. Otherwise you can’t finish anything. Hindsight is 20/20. Everybody makes mistakes. The best you can do is recognize when you've made one and then do your best to correct it as soon as possible.
Does it make sense that Sauron wouldn’t know about Hobbits or the Shire?
Does it make sense that Sauron wouldn’t know about Ents or the Woses? Conquering the world is a big enterprise and if you let yourself get bogged down in details you’ll never get it done.
After all, he’s been in Middle-earth for thousands of years!
But hobbits have just been in the Shire for only about 1400 years. Sometimes you just can’t keep on top of all the latest news.
“’But this is terrible!’ crided Frodo. ‘Far worse than the worst that I imagined from your hints and warnings. O Gandalf, best of friends, what am I to do? For now I am really afraid. What am I to do?’” What do you think was the worst that Frodo imagined?
Probably some vague thoughts that the ring was sort of like the Arkenstone. Somebody was looking for it, but they never really had a chance of finding it.
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The audacious proposal stirred his heart. And the stirring became a song, and it mingled with the songs of Gil-galad and Celebrian, and with those of Feanor and Fingon. The song-weaving created a larger song, and then another, until suddenly it was as if a long forgotten memory woke and for one breathtaking moment the Music of the Ainur revealed itself in all glory. He opened his lips to sing and share this song. Then he realized that the others would not understand. Not even Mithrandir given his current state of mind. So he smiled and simply said "A diversion.”
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FarFromHome
Doriath
Nov 4 2007, 8:48pm
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How would you have gotten the information out of Gollum? Are you surprised at Gandalf using the threat of violence to achieve his end?
Gandalf seems to have a bit of a reputation. Sam's afraid he's going to turn him into something unnatural, Butterbur thinks he'll have his ale turned sour and himself turned into a block of wood, both without Gandalf having to say a word. Wizards don't have to actually do any magic, it seems - people just believe they will anyway! Gandalf actually threatens to blow Frodo's door out through the back of the hill, too, although I don't suppose he means any more by that than he when he jokes about turning Sam into a toad, later on. It's expected of wizards that they be grumpy and short-tempered, and so people are careful not to get on the wrong side of them.
I'm sure Gandalf could use this irascible exterior to turn Gollum into the fawning, obsequious creature that he becomes later with Frodo too. No torture required - just force of personality (and the knowledge that he is, after all, a Wizard, so that even the most unlikely threats can't help but be taken seriously).
...and the sails were drawn up, and the wind blew,
and slowly the ship slipped away down the long grey firth;
and the light of the glass of Galadriel that Frodo bore
glimmered and was lost.
(This post was edited by FarFromHome on Nov 4 2007, 8:52pm)
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