Our Sponsor Sideshow Collectibles Send us News
Lord of the Rings Tolkien
Search Tolkien
Lord of The RingsTheOneRing.net - Forged By And For Fans Of JRR Tolkien
Lord of The Rings Serving Middle-Earth Since The First Age

Lord of the Rings Movie News - J.R.R. Tolkien
Do you enjoy the 100% volunteer, not for profit services of TheOneRing.net?
Consider a donation!

  Main Index   Search Posts   Who's Online   Log in
The One Ring Forums: Tolkien Topics: Movie Discussion: The Hobbit:
An Update to Bilbo's Contract
First page Previous page 1 2 3 4 5 6 Next page Last page  View All

Shelob'sAppetite
Valinor

Oct 3 2012, 3:01am

Post #51 of 145 (1641 views)
Shortcut
True! [In reply to] Can't Post

Smile Though that would simply convolute the point, IMO. I mean, if some of the dwarves are just like Bilbo, why even have Bilbo in the story?


DarkJackal
Rohan


Oct 3 2012, 3:02am

Post #52 of 145 (1626 views)
Shortcut
True [In reply to] Can't Post

This contract reflects a general knowledge of hobbits, not of Bilbo in particular, and shows an attempt to curtail any dishonest behavior which might be expected when hiring a thief.



The Hobbit Photo Gallery


Shelob'sAppetite
Valinor

Oct 3 2012, 3:07am

Post #53 of 145 (1641 views)
Shortcut
If that is how PJ plays it [In reply to] Can't Post

I will find it perfectly acceptable. If after singing the song, and after Bilbo asks for more details, Thorin says something like:

"Here's the contract. Maybe you'll understand that better, hobbit."

I will embrace it.

But if the contract is played as a peculiarly dwarven characteristic, or as an extension of Thorin's windbaggery, I will find it hard to stomach, and certainly a misinterpretation of the book.


DarkJackal
Rohan


Oct 3 2012, 3:08am

Post #54 of 145 (1650 views)
Shortcut
Because he doesn't smell like a dwarf... [In reply to] Can't Post

...to a dragon. That was Gandalf's answer when Thorin wondered the same thing. Tongue



The Hobbit Photo Gallery


DarkJackal
Rohan


Oct 3 2012, 3:11am

Post #55 of 145 (1629 views)
Shortcut
Let's hope for the best then! // [In reply to] Can't Post

 



The Hobbit Photo Gallery


GoodGuyA
Lorien

Oct 3 2012, 3:18am

Post #56 of 145 (1490 views)
Shortcut
Now you're just being silly... [In reply to] Can't Post

Undermining such a serious moment with a lame throwaway gag? Seems like your humor is incredibly selective, and I certainly don't agree that it was Tolkien's intent or just a generally good idea in terms of writing to go that route. You may bemoan the lack of certain details, but Jackson and Weta always replace these with more details which serve the story differently. It's not so literal when it's tackling the underlying themes, but it's not unfaithful just because of that.


Shelob'sAppetite
Valinor

Oct 3 2012, 3:19am

Post #57 of 145 (1655 views)
Shortcut
Agreed [In reply to] Can't Post

Now THAT was a conversation.

Dark Jackal has proved that it is indeed possible to have one with me. Wink


Shelob'sAppetite
Valinor

Oct 3 2012, 3:27am

Post #58 of 145 (1547 views)
Shortcut
I don't understand... [In reply to] Can't Post

Thorin, in the book, acts incredulously when Bilbo asks him for more details after they had already sung the song. See the quote I cited above, where he essentially criticizes Bilbo for not listening, or not comprehending. He then says "O very well" when Bilbo asks for more details, etc. That exasperation could be replaced, at this point, with: "Give him the contract," followed by a sarcastic suggestion by Thorin that Bilbo might understand that better. How, exactly is that a throwaway gag? How is it even a gag? Whatever it is, it would be infinitely better than the suggestion that the contract is a particularly dwarvish thing (though not better than what's already in the book).

The contract is not part of Thorin's "long-windedness," and PJ would be misinterpreting the Hobbit if he played it as such. The contract is a mockery of hobbitish ways, and, on a simpler level, merely Thorin's way of giving Bilbo what he asked for. After all, Bilbo did ask for it:

Quote

"All the same, I should like it all plain and clear," said he obstinately, putting on his business manner (usually reserved for people who tried to borrow money off him), and doing his best to appear wise and prudent and professional and live up to Gandalf's recommendation. "Also, I should like to know about risks, out-of-pocket expenses, time required and remuneration, and so forth" - by which he meant: "What am I going to get out of it? and am I going to come back alive?"



(This post was edited by Shelob'sAppetite on Oct 3 2012, 3:29am)


DarkJackal
Rohan


Oct 3 2012, 3:28am

Post #59 of 145 (1652 views)
Shortcut
I am a glutton for punishment :) [In reply to] Can't Post

Would love to continue, but must eat.



The Hobbit Photo Gallery


Shelob'sAppetite
Valinor

Oct 3 2012, 3:39am

Post #60 of 145 (1618 views)
Shortcut
Eat then! [In reply to] Can't Post

Just make sure it's an enjoyable meal. Smile


N.E. Brigand
Half-elven


Oct 3 2012, 3:55am

Post #61 of 145 (1705 views)
Shortcut
Nicely said, SA. [In reply to] Can't Post

I've been ignoring most of the advance film news, and before I randomly clicked on the latest Movie board post was unaware of the filmmakers' spoof-contract. (Though surely only a few lines will actually be conveyed to viewers in the film itself? And has anyone mentioned that Tolkien himself created a version of this contract in his tengwar script? Not that the filmmakers have the rights to that.) I am surprised that, at least as per DarkJackal's impressive transcrption, neither "esteemed repose" nor "funeral expenses" seems to appear in the film version! And regarding "if the matter is not otherwise arranged for" (also missing from the film, it appears), I think it was Tom Shippey who first observed that this means, "if you aren't eaten by the dragon"!

-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-
<><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>
Discuss Tolkien's life and works in the Reading Room!
+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=
How to find old Reading Room discussions.


Voronwë_the_Faithful
Valinor

Oct 3 2012, 4:06am

Post #62 of 145 (1662 views)
Shortcut
Nice to see you here! [In reply to] Can't Post

Despite the fact that it was in response to me that SA started this discussion, I largely agree with his point (as both of you probably already know, from reading my "Law and Arda" paper in Tolkien Studies). I would recommend that people check out Tom Shippey's chapter "The Bourgeois Burglar" in The Road to Middle-earth for probably the best discussion of the dichotomy between Bilbo as a representative of the modern world and the dwarves -- particularly Thorin -- as representative of the old world.

That having been said, I don't expect Jackson to even attempt to capture that type of subtly in the films, so I am looking for different things in the film contract.

'But very bright were the stars upon the margin of the world, when at times the clouds about the West were drawn aside.'

The Hall of Fire


Shelob'sAppetite
Valinor

Oct 3 2012, 4:14am

Post #63 of 145 (1621 views)
Shortcut
A shame, though [In reply to] Can't Post

Because that kind of subtlety, as in the Hobbit, can be conveyed very briskly, and in a way that has general appeal for a mass audience. It is not the sort of chamber play subtlety that one must be a direct descendant of William the Conqueror to fully grasp.

I wonder if the film-makers have actually at least thought about the book on this level, or if this sort of thing never even occurred to them...


Voronwë_the_Faithful
Valinor

Oct 3 2012, 4:19am

Post #64 of 145 (1575 views)
Shortcut
In a word, no [In reply to] Can't Post

I don't think that they think about it on that level. But honestly, I don't think that many do, outside of the scholarly realm.

'But very bright were the stars upon the margin of the world, when at times the clouds about the West were drawn aside.'

The Hall of Fire


Shelob'sAppetite
Valinor

Oct 3 2012, 5:14am

Post #65 of 145 (1581 views)
Shortcut
True, however [In reply to] Can't Post

Most people aren't adapting the book into films. Smile

Plus, I think countless readers of Tolkien have picked up on these subtleties subconsciously. There is something familiar about Bilbo, but most can't pinpoint what that is, or why they feel that way. There is something enchanting about the dwarves' quest, and the dwarf song, but most can't pinpoint why they react that way. IMO, a core reason for their reaction lies in Tolkien's language, and his varying use of that language for different purposes.

So if filmmakers want to awake an audience's subconscious in a way that Tolkien does, they should get to know what's really behind that.


DarkJackal
Rohan


Oct 3 2012, 5:19am

Post #66 of 145 (1500 views)
Shortcut
I was in error, those quotes are in there [In reply to] Can't Post

Somehow I managed in an edit of this post to delete the only original lines from the book to make their way into the film version! It is like I was guided by some force that only loves PJ's version and hates Tolkien EvilEvil

"Esteemed repose" is missing so far as I can see, but rest assured, the contract contains this:

Cash on delivery up to and not exceeding one fourteenth of the total profit [if any].


All traveling expenses guaranteed in any event.


Funeral expenses to be defrayed by us or our representatives if occasion arises, and the matter is not otherwise arranged for
.



Here is another look at that section from a promotional image:

http://heirsofdurin.files.wordpress.com/.../guidelines_hero.png



The Hobbit Photo Gallery

(This post was edited by DarkJackal on Oct 3 2012, 5:22am)


Shelob'sAppetite
Valinor

Oct 3 2012, 5:23am

Post #67 of 145 (1585 views)
Shortcut
Esteemed repose is not in there [In reply to] Can't Post

Because the contract is not delivered to Bilbo in the morning. Rather, it is pre-written and handed to him during the unexpected party.


Shelob'sAppetite
Valinor

Oct 3 2012, 5:26am

Post #68 of 145 (1572 views)
Shortcut
Thanks N.E. Brigand [In reply to] Can't Post

Though we have not interacted much before, your reputation precedes you.

Nice to have your vote of confidence on this!


Shelob'sAppetite
Valinor

Oct 3 2012, 5:33am

Post #69 of 145 (1470 views)
Shortcut
Shippey is, of course [In reply to] Can't Post

A font of wisdom on this, and many other subjects relating to Tolkien and the English language. Most of my babblings are derivative of his work, my own linguistic background, and a selection of my favorite Tolkien scholars - most notably, Flieger.

However, not only do I not expect a lay audience to think about some of these concepts, I also do not think it necessary for them to do so.

IMO, the author and the artist are responsible for getting the ingredients of the soup right, and the diner is only responsible for eating it. But if the cook gets those ingredients wrong, it will either taste bad, or taste like something quite different.


N.E. Brigand
Half-elven


Oct 3 2012, 6:01am

Post #70 of 145 (1578 views)
Shortcut
Thanks for the update, DJ. [In reply to] Can't Post

Now I have to get back to trying to catch up on two years of Reading Room posts.

-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-
<><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>
Discuss Tolkien's life and works in the Reading Room!
+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=
How to find old Reading Room discussions.


DarkJackal
Rohan


Oct 3 2012, 8:24am

Post #71 of 145 (1603 views)
Shortcut
If anyone is still reading :-) [In reply to] Can't Post

Some really clear images were shared by someone at the Weta Cave today. I'm made more updates (including adding an excessive amount of fine print Crazy). I have a bit more to add to the transcription, but you can view it all clearly now.



The Hobbit Photo Gallery


AlatarVinyamar
Lorien

Oct 3 2012, 9:30am

Post #72 of 145 (1568 views)
Shortcut
Its worth pointing out. [In reply to] Can't Post

Tolkien specifically calls out the Dwarves as being modelled on Jews. I would have thought lawyerly contracts would fit that stereotype rather well?


Lacrimae Rerum
Grey Havens

Oct 3 2012, 10:14am

Post #73 of 145 (1535 views)
Shortcut
Well serves me right for going to bed [In reply to] Can't Post

Just the point I was going to make! One is a response to specific pomp, the other to the expectation of pomp. But scatcely fundamental either way.

LR


entmaiden
Forum Admin / Moderator


Oct 3 2012, 12:13pm

Post #74 of 145 (1585 views)
Shortcut
NEB! Great to see you! [In reply to] Can't Post

Hope you get to spend more time in these parts.


Beren0nehanded
Bree


Oct 3 2012, 12:38pm

Post #75 of 145 (1405 views)
Shortcut
Subjectivity! [In reply to] Can't Post

The great thing about humor is that it's so subjective! Wink

Weta did a fantastic job as usual with their version of Tolkien's brilliant writing!

Don't be hasty.

First page Previous page 1 2 3 4 5 6 Next page Last page  View All
 
 

Search for (options) Powered by Gossamer Forum v.1.2.3

home | advertising | contact us | back to top | search news | join list | Content Rating

This site is maintained and updated by fans of The Lord of the Rings, and is in no way affiliated with Tolkien Enterprises or the Tolkien Estate. We in no way claim the artwork displayed to be our own. Copyrights and trademarks for the books, films, articles, and other promotional materials are held by their respective owners and their use is allowed under the fair use clause of the Copyright Law. Design and original photography however are copyright © 1999-2012 TheOneRing.net. Binary hosting provided by Nexcess.net

Do not follow this link, or your host will be blocked from this site. This is a spider trap.