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The One Ring Forums: Tolkien Topics: Movie Discussion: The Hobbit:
The notion of Bolg chasing Gandalf or matching the power of The Wizard. . . What? come on now! Be serious.
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Otaku-sempai
Half-elven


Oct 2 2012, 7:38pm

Post #51 of 99 (1098 views)
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Beorn? [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
that it is Bolg and not the Necromancer that is being portrayed as the source of Gandalf's fear? In the Bolg description released a while ago it said "Bolg is the offspring of Azog the Desecarator – like his father, he is huge pale orc. He is the overseer in the dungeons of Dol Guldur – torturing is his hobby. He garnishes his armor with the bones and the blood of his victims. This husky Orc fears nothing and nobody – until he suddenly meets an unexpected opponent."

I don't see how that leads us to think Bolg will be a big threat to Gandalf. If anything, the description implies it is the other way around.



As a book-reader, I have assumed that the last bit in the description refers to Bolg encountering Beorn at the Battle of the Five Armies. Now, Bolg may be far more bad-ass than the Great Goblin and it could be that Gandalf is fleeing from him. However, my impression was that Gandalf was running from a more supernatural threat.

'Thus spake Ioreth, wise-woman of Gondor: The hands of the king are the hands of a healer, and so shall the rightful king be known.' - Gandalf the White


Altaira
Superuser / Moderator


Oct 2 2012, 7:55pm

Post #52 of 99 (1030 views)
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Of course [In reply to] Can't Post

everyone is welcome to share concerns, just as others are welcome to ask how they arrived at those concerns and express their own feelings about them. I may just be easily confused today, but I don't see any place that anyone has said otherwise.


Koru: Maori symbol representing a fern frond as it opens. The koru reaches towards the light, striving for perfection, encouraging new, positive beginnings.



"Life can't be all work and no TORn" -- jflower

"I take a moment to fervently hope that the camaradarie and just plain old fun I found at TORn will never end" -- LOTR_nutcase





Kangi Ska
Half-elven


Oct 2 2012, 10:15pm

Post #53 of 99 (1026 views)
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That would be a real stretch. [In reply to] Can't Post

Sounds like a video game and not Tolkien at all.

Kangi Ska Resident Trickster & Wicked White Crebain
Life is an adventure, not a contest.

At night you can not tell if crows are black or white.
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(This post was edited by Kangi Ska on Oct 2 2012, 10:15pm)


Aitieuriskon
Lorien


Oct 2 2012, 10:58pm

Post #54 of 99 (983 views)
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Agreed [In reply to] Can't Post

and from the wraith scream heard briefly in the trailer I'd say that's the more likely option

"After all, I believe that legends and myths are largely made of 'truth', and indeed present aspects of it that can only be received in this mode; and long ago certain truths and modes of this kind were discovered and must always reappear." Professor Tolkien, 1951


Lacrimae Rerum
Grey Havens

Oct 2 2012, 11:25pm

Post #55 of 99 (959 views)
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Not sure if it's just me [In reply to] Can't Post

But I'm not quite sure what you mean there Kangi?

Ignoring the histrionics of the OP there are a few points which I think are interesting as an off shoot.

The first is the importance of place. We see on numerous occasions the explicit or implicit influence which the location of characters lend to their "powers", ranging from the seemingly prosaic (e.g. nazgul at Bree) to the well established (e.g. Lorien and Rivendell) and the slightly mysterious (e.g Amon Hen). The goodies benefit from this at various and are hindered by it (Minas Morgul etc). We might well expect Gandalf to face a similar impediment of some sort in the Hill of Sorcery. It is interesting in this context that I think all of Gandalf's descriptions of his visits to Dol Guldur focus on the language of location (passing the doors, avoiding the places it overlooked, ventured in, been in and so forth)

Secondly we also know that Sauron can, with at least one of his servants, led them additional "power" - as we learn of the WK at Minas Tirith from Tolkien's letters. I wonder whether we may see and similar "enhancement" of servants in TH.

LR


AinurOlorin
Half-elven


Oct 2 2012, 11:29pm

Post #56 of 99 (992 views)
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It isn't the merchandising alone. Its a series of things that, put together, could be an issue. [In reply to] Can't Post

Now, of COURSE there is some speculation involved. This thread is about a concern which I hope will NOT come to pass, not something that is absolutely known and certain.

But as to the speculations basis, it goes beyond the toy. The pairing of the two suggests (strongly) a confrontation. Unless there is to be a very serious deviation from the story, Bolg will still be alive at the Battle of Five Armies, i.e., he clearly survives the confrontation with the greater Power. We have seen Gandalf in Dol Guldur (presumably), looking rather harried and concerned. The question of what is chasing him and troubling him so arises. All the indicators are that the threat is Bolg. And if it is Bolg, will he be alone or leading a larger group of orcs. And if he IS alone. . . how will this be presented. Gandalf The Gray put to the test in a fight to a draw by some Orc captain? Put more to the test than he was battling all Nine RingWraiths atop Amon Sul? Foolishness. I just don't see the upside, IF such a confrontation occurs, to diminishing the mystery and power the book Gives Gandalf (and some of the power is in the mystery), by portraying him as being seriously imperiled by a lone orc captain.

In Reply To
...as to where you've come up with all the notions in your post, and why it upsets you so.

If I'm following it correctly from reading the previously 'hijacked' thread, you've become rather shockingly upset by some toy packaging and some off-the-cuff speculation about it by a few users here. I'm just wondering how you could possibly get from the point A (toy packaging and speculation) to point B (strongly upset), from the evidence (or lack thereof)?


"Hear me, hounds of Sauron, Gandalf is here! Fly if you value your foul skins, I will shrivel you from tail to snout if you step within this circle!"

"Do not be to eager to deal out death in judgement. Even the very wise cannot see all ends."


AinurOlorin
Half-elven


Oct 2 2012, 11:40pm

Post #57 of 99 (950 views)
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Well that just isn't the story or the Mythos. That is like saying, " I hate that Superman is so strong" [In reply to] Can't Post

or, "I hate that Dumbledore is at least as talented a wizard as Voldemort." Or, "I wish Godzilla was a more reasonable size. Say 30 feet instead of 300."

Gandalf is very powerful, and I would argue that the Gandalf The Gray of The Hobbit is shown to be just as powerful, in most respects, as the Gandalf The Gray in FOTR.

As to the Divine stuff.. . He is what He is. That is part of his story. He is Holy. A Holy spirit, taking thought for creatures of flesh, and taking on the burdens of this world out of love and compassion. It adds a deeply spiritual component to the entire tale. You may not like it, but you might just as well not like the fact that Galadriel is a poweful Elf Queen, or that the Balrog is an ancient demon rather than just a random monster.

I cannot sign on for misrepresenting a MAJOR character, because some readers didn't like the nature of said character. I would also be disgusted if the deeper and fundemental legendarium of the tales were violated for a cheap "ooooooh, is that ugly orc gonna get Gandalf?" moment in a filmed adaptation.

In Reply To
I said that Gandalf is SuperImmortalMegaGandalf! (In LOTR). Joke aside, but he's just way too powerful to my taste - another pet peeve of mine when it comes to LOTR. This character of Gandalf, who dies and can be resurrected at will. No sense of danger or threat, as with Gandalf, the main players are basically safe.

In The Hobbit, we get the sense that Gandalf is a kind of powerful wizard who can do wonderful things, but that's kind of it - no divine Valar intervention or mentions of that he's a sort of immortal demi-god. I love that. It makes the journey the company in TH goes through much more realistic and threatening and humane and we can relate to it. When Gandalf faces the Witch-King in LOTR, we know he won't lose, and if he would, it would not have been such a big deal. He'd probably been "sent back to complete his task a second time Unimpressed" As you can see, I'm not a big fan of how Tolkien made him this demi-god creature in LOTR. In TH he's just a wizard.

That's also one of the reasons I was never bothered with the scene in ROTK-EE where the Witch-King takes down Gandalf and smashes his staff to pieces. I liked that. It gave us the sense that anything could happen, unlike the books, even to our dear Mithrandir.

As always, IMO.


"Hear me, hounds of Sauron, Gandalf is here! Fly if you value your foul skins, I will shrivel you from tail to snout if you step within this circle!"

"Do not be to eager to deal out death in judgement. Even the very wise cannot see all ends."


AinurOlorin
Half-elven


Oct 2 2012, 11:51pm

Post #58 of 99 (937 views)
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The Earth would continue to orbit even if Smaug were portrayed as a 200 foot tall kitten [In reply to] Can't Post

who is lured to the side of good by the sexual favours of Galadriel, and who is subsequently ridden to the fully restored Barad-Dur by Gandalf, who destroys the tower by shooting waves of lightning from his eyes. The Earth would keep turning, but that wouldn't change the fact that The Hobbit had gone WAY off the rails in a way certain to badly upset a great many people. Thus, the continued spinning of the planet does not justify hard to validate alterations to the story.

And then, maybe you are wrong, and improper deviations from the novel in The Hobbit movie will be what caues the 2012 apocalypse! ShockedShockedShocked Tongue lol

In Reply To
I'm sorry, but I do. Hope it turns out in a way that I, you, AND AinurOlorin (and even Shelob'sAppetite) all end up liking (or at least not hating). Meanwhile, the earth will still keep orbiting around the sun, rotating daily.


"Hear me, hounds of Sauron, Gandalf is here! Fly if you value your foul skins, I will shrivel you from tail to snout if you step within this circle!"

"Do not be to eager to deal out death in judgement. Even the very wise cannot see all ends."


Voronwë_the_Faithful
Valinor

Oct 2 2012, 11:53pm

Post #59 of 99 (939 views)
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LOL [In reply to] Can't Post

Smaug as a 200 foot tall kitten is the funniest thing I have seen in a long time. Thanks for the chuckle.

'But very bright were the stars upon the margin of the world, when at times the clouds about the West were drawn aside.'

The Hall of Fire


AinurOlorin
Half-elven


Oct 2 2012, 11:54pm

Post #60 of 99 (952 views)
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There is some merit to that notion Kangi. The Legendarium does [In reply to] Can't Post

at least allude to the notion that there were Greater Orcs, who were not really orcs at all, but were rather some of the very least potent types of Maia demons who had taken corperal forms.

In Reply To
Sounds like a video game and not Tolkien at all.


"Hear me, hounds of Sauron, Gandalf is here! Fly if you value your foul skins, I will shrivel you from tail to snout if you step within this circle!"

"Do not be to eager to deal out death in judgement. Even the very wise cannot see all ends."


SirDennisC
Half-elven


Oct 2 2012, 11:56pm

Post #61 of 99 (946 views)
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The timing is rather suspect... [In reply to] Can't Post

or auspicious, depending.


Quote
improper deviations from the novel in The Hobbit movie will be what caues the 2012 apocalypse!



AinurOlorin
Half-elven


Oct 2 2012, 11:59pm

Post #62 of 99 (955 views)
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Thanks, my good Elf lady. And to Voronwe, glad you enjoyed, [In reply to] Can't Post

Wink. I hoped it would amuse at least a little. lol. Thanks also SAppetite, for understanding where I am coming from. I am not saying these things will play out this way. Of course this is speculative, but it is a fear based on a number of factors and hints, which when put together, make it seem like a real possibility that such a scene could be presented.

Someone mentioned hearing a Ringwraith in the trailer. I missed that.

In Reply To
'shockingly upset'. He was discussing his concerns in logical and well thought out terms, a thread is for discussing and it shouldnt be shut down just because it doesnt suit some peoples ideas. its a thread like many, I dont see the problem. Its ALL speculation at this point, as none of us have seen the film.


"Hear me, hounds of Sauron, Gandalf is here! Fly if you value your foul skins, I will shrivel you from tail to snout if you step within this circle!"

"Do not be to eager to deal out death in judgement. Even the very wise cannot see all ends."


There&ThereAgain
Rohan


Oct 3 2012, 12:13am

Post #63 of 99 (961 views)
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seems like a bad deal to me [In reply to] Can't Post

You are a Maia badass and your buddies get to be Balrogs, Wizards, Spiders, etc. but you get stuck in the lame orc body...Freaky Friday amirite? Crazy

"The world is indeed full of peril, and in it there are many dark places; but still there is much that is fair; and though in all lands love is now mingled with grief, it grows perhaps the greater."-J.R.R. Tolkien

"Thanks for the money!" -George Lucas


AinurOlorin
Half-elven


Oct 3 2012, 12:16am

Post #64 of 99 (942 views)
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Well, the Balrogs and Wizards (even in the Wizard's limited forms) are Maia of greater [In reply to] Can't Post

degree and power. The Balrogs were "The Demons of Might" Valarauko, "power demons." They were Melkor's migtiest and most powerful lieutenants, aside from Sauron himself. Not every demon can be one of THOSE demons. lol. And Ungoliant. . . well, Melkor himself could not master her.

In Reply To
You are a Maia badass and your buddies get to be Balrogs, Wizards, Spiders, etc. but you get stuck in the lame orc body...Freaky Friday amirite? Crazy


"Hear me, hounds of Sauron, Gandalf is here! Fly if you value your foul skins, I will shrivel you from tail to snout if you step within this circle!"

"Do not be to eager to deal out death in judgement. Even the very wise cannot see all ends."


AinurOlorin
Half-elven


Oct 3 2012, 12:20am

Post #65 of 99 (951 views)
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But is the being he fears Gandalf, or Beorn. It is an important question. [In reply to] Can't Post

Beorn is terrifying in his own way, and Beorn kills Bolg. Is the packaging alluding to that future event, or to an encounter with The Wizard?

In Reply To
To me this implies that Bolg is used to being the big, bad orc who no one messes with, until Gandalf shows up and opens a can of whoop-ass.


"Hear me, hounds of Sauron, Gandalf is here! Fly if you value your foul skins, I will shrivel you from tail to snout if you step within this circle!"

"Do not be to eager to deal out death in judgement. Even the very wise cannot see all ends."


Kangi Ska
Half-elven


Oct 3 2012, 12:21am

Post #66 of 99 (918 views)
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I really want a citation on this idea of Maia Orcs.// [In reply to] Can't Post

 

Kangi Ska Resident Trickster & Wicked White Crebain
Life is an adventure, not a contest.

At night you can not tell if crows are black or white.
Photobucket



Shelob'sAppetite
Valinor

Oct 3 2012, 12:21am

Post #67 of 99 (901 views)
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You're in luck [In reply to] Can't Post

As it has already been done!


Aitieuriskon
Lorien


Oct 3 2012, 12:24am

Post #68 of 99 (925 views)
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It is very faint [In reply to] Can't Post

and largely eclipsed by Gandalf saying "afraid" but if you listen very closely you can hear it at 2:40 if you use the Gandalf version on the Hobbit movie site.

"After all, I believe that legends and myths are largely made of 'truth', and indeed present aspects of it that can only be received in this mode; and long ago certain truths and modes of this kind were discovered and must always reappear." Professor Tolkien, 1951

(This post was edited by Aitieuriskon on Oct 3 2012, 12:30am)


Lacrimae Rerum
Grey Havens

Oct 3 2012, 12:32am

Post #69 of 99 (921 views)
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It's in Morgoth's Ring [In reply to] Can't Post

“For Morgoth had many servants, the oldest and most potent of whom were immortal, belonging indeed in their beginning to the Maiar; and these evil spirits like their Master could take on visible forms. Those whose business it was to direct the Orcs often took Orkish shapes, though they were greater and more terrible. Thus it was that the histories speak of Great Orcs or Orc-captains who were not slain, and who reappeared in battle through years far longer than the span of the lives of Men.” (HoME; Morgoth’s Ring)

LR


Kangi Ska
Half-elven


Oct 3 2012, 12:39am

Post #70 of 99 (910 views)
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Ok I actually found that before you cited it. But this leads to the question [In reply to] Can't Post

Is Jackson using The History of Middle-earth to script his Hobbit*3?

Kangi Ska Resident Trickster & Wicked White Crebain
Life is an adventure, not a contest.

At night you can not tell if crows are black or white.
Photobucket



Aitieuriskon
Lorien


Oct 3 2012, 12:42am

Post #71 of 99 (903 views)
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It does seem like it, doesn't it? [In reply to] Can't Post

One might say that the whole Azog revenant theory stemmed not from a reinterpretation of "necromancer" as used in Tolkien but instead from this HoME passage.

"After all, I believe that legends and myths are largely made of 'truth', and indeed present aspects of it that can only be received in this mode; and long ago certain truths and modes of this kind were discovered and must always reappear." Professor Tolkien, 1951


AinurOlorin
Half-elven


Oct 3 2012, 12:57am

Post #72 of 99 (929 views)
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Mmmm. That must be why when The Balrog showed up, Gandalf told the ENTIRE fellowhship [In reply to] Can't Post

"Fly! This is a foe beyond ANY (or even all) of you! I must hold the narrow way. . . " and "Swords are of no more use here!"
One of the official companion MOVIE books to the LOTR films even states that the entire fellowship would have been slain by The Balrog if not for Gandalf's presence. But in your imagination, Aragorn or Boromir could have defeated him, for sure. Riiiiight.

In Reply To
Bolg is a hero orc, a warrior on a par with Thorin, Aragorn, Boromir, etc.

And Gandalf (and Maia in general) has far less raw power than many of you seem to imagine.


"Hear me, hounds of Sauron, Gandalf is here! Fly if you value your foul skins, I will shrivel you from tail to snout if you step within this circle!"

"Do not be to eager to deal out death in judgement. Even the very wise cannot see all ends."

(This post was edited by AinurOlorin on Oct 3 2012, 12:57am)


Tim
Tol Eressea


Oct 3 2012, 1:16am

Post #73 of 99 (895 views)
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Verrryyy interesting... [In reply to] Can't Post

*twirls moustache*

King Arthur: You know much that is hidden oh Tim.

Tim: Quite.


SirDennisC
Half-elven


Oct 3 2012, 2:24am

Post #74 of 99 (889 views)
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Spent too much time on Bilbo's contract [In reply to] Can't Post

and not enough on the subtleties of the licence agreement.


AinurOlorin
Half-elven


Oct 3 2012, 2:27am

Post #75 of 99 (917 views)
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You said blast apart, not me. But, unless the Tolkien you read had missing pages, [In reply to] Can't Post

he does "blast" close to a dozen goblins dead when they try to seize him, and essentially dissapears from the scene, not showing up again until the even more spectacular display in The Great Goblins chamber.

Killing a handful of goblins with something akin to a lightning bolt does not mean he could do that fifty times in a row in a single day without dropping from exhaustion and overexertion (after his magical contest against The Balrog for control of the door to The Chamber of Marzabul, he had to rest from even lighting his wand/staff). However, it almost certainly means he could kill one big goblin with such a blast, in a pinch, if he really needed to. Even if the goblins were as small as Bilbo, 3 feet and some inches tall and between 50 to 80 pounds, if you put them all together you would have one huge orc. . . a bear, really.

In Reply To
Gandalf simply blasting an orc general apart would conflict with the Tolkien I read.


"Hear me, hounds of Sauron, Gandalf is here! Fly if you value your foul skins, I will shrivel you from tail to snout if you step within this circle!"

"Do not be to eager to deal out death in judgement. Even the very wise cannot see all ends."

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