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The One Ring Forums: Tolkien Topics: Movie Discussion: The Hobbit:
The notion of Bolg chasing Gandalf or matching the power of The Wizard. . . What? come on now! Be serious.
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AinurOlorin
Half-elven


Oct 2 2012, 1:06am

Post #1 of 99 (4127 views)
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The notion of Bolg chasing Gandalf or matching the power of The Wizard. . . What? come on now! Be serious. Can't Post

This matter managed to hijack another thread which wasn't really made for it. Here is one specifically for it.

To wit, the argument is NOT being made that Gandalf is an unhinderable Zeus figure in this story. But I take some issue with the notion, if it is portrayed thus in the films, that a single orc baddy, even a particularly nasty one like Bolg, would be shown as being anything akin to a real match for The Grey Messenger. Consider,

"The Lights went out, the great fire went off into a tower of glowing blue smoke that scattered white sparks amongst the goblins. . . the sparks were burning holes IN the goblins etc."

The Warg scene in LOTR: "In The Wavering Firelight Gandalf seemed suddenly to grow. He rose up, a great menacing shape like the monument of some ancient king. . . stooping like a cloud, he stode to meet the wargs. They gave back before him. High in the air he tossed the blazing brand. . . it flared with radiance like lightning and his voice rolled like thunder. . . the tree above him burst into a bloom of brilliant flame. . . the fire lept from tree top to tree top etc. etc."

To quote Sam, "Whatever may be in store for old Gandalf, I'll wager it isn't the wolf's belly. . . What did I tell you Mr. Pippin?! Wolves won't get him! That was an eye opener and no mistake! Nearly singed the hair off my head he did!"

He also battles all The Nine Nazgul Lords, wielding in some fashion searing flame and "lightning that leaps up from the ground" from nightfall until dawn. Do any here think Bolg could manage half as much?


Gandalf is limited in his earthly form, and forbidden from matching the power of Sauron with his own Maia power. He is not an all powerful super badass, and I am not suggesting otherwise. He is, however, very powerful. As mighty, in his way, as dread Powers like The Balrog (who, I will remind you, routed an entire kingdom of dwarves, after slaying their kings and many of their warriors, and the very power and fear of whom drove hosts of Elves from Lothlorien. The Dwarves were bold and fierce, and Dain mighty among them, but they would not dare Moria whilst Durin's Bane remained in residence and mastery there, and Dain specifically said that a greater Power than theirs would have to come through Moria before Durin's folk would walk there again. That Power was Gandalf The Grey). He actually was GOING to kill a great number of the goblins, at his own expense,after the warg chase, hurling down like a Thunderbolt as the book described it.. At The Battle of Five armies, he is merely reffered to as "preparing some magic blast". Yet, the lack of mention beyond him preparing some magic blast does not mean he did nothing worth mentioning. Thorin is in large part mentioned because he led a charge and the focus was on his tale, which was soon to end. Beorn played the key role in the saving of Thorin. The Eagles were the fifth army. One cannot assume that Gandalf, Thranduil, Bard, Dain and a host of other notables did not do any impressive fighting just because Tolkien didn't spend a paragraph of "oh by the way and in the meantime" on each of them.

I am not suggesting for a moment that Gandalf would come through wielding unstoppable Dumbledore spells, but let us dispense right now with the utterly false notion that he never is shown to do more than shine some damn light in people's faces, as some have suggested. Peter may have portrayed it thus (and actually, even Peter actually gives him much more powers than some seem willing to credit him withm and certainly more than enough to overwhelm any lone goblin or orc in combat), but in the books he is clearly shown to wield notable Power, and "while he could not do everything, he could do a great deal for friends in a tight place." As Strider puts it, "I do not know of anything that could have hindered him, save The Enemy Himself. But do not give up hope! Gandalf is greater than you Shire-Folk know. As a rule you can see only his jokes and toys. . ." Aragorn later says, as they journey through Moria, "Do not be afraid! Do not be afraid. I have been with Gandalf on many a journey, if never one so dark, and there are tales in Rivendell of greater deeds of his than any I have seen."

Lets not totally disregard the books in making our assesments. Gandalf did not storm about the world in an overwhelming godform, but he was a Force to be reckoned with, and beyond the recokoning of any singular orc warrior. For these films to suggest otherwise would not only disrespect Gandalf. . . it would rather badly downplay and disprespect the dread power of The Balrog.

"Hear me, hounds of Sauron, Gandalf is here! Fly if you value your foul skins, I will shrivel you from tail to snout if you step within this circle!"

"Do not be to eager to deal out death in judgement. Even the very wise cannot see all ends."


Phibbus
Rohan


Oct 2 2012, 1:22am

Post #2 of 99 (2153 views)
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My take [In reply to] Can't Post

I'm becoming more and more convinced that Bolg isn't being depicted as just an orc, but as some kind of supernatural, necromantic, can't-be-killed, liquid-metal bad juju. I don't think that will make you (or me) feel any better, but at least Gandalf isn't a wuss.

Man is but an ass if he go about to expound this dream.


Shelob'sAppetite
Valinor

Oct 2 2012, 1:34am

Post #3 of 99 (2125 views)
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I think that's what is happening [In reply to] Can't Post

Bolg is being depicted as some sort of Boldog, and he may even be a zombie, to boot...

Gandalf vs. big zombie Boldog?

Tough call. Smile


AinurOlorin
Half-elven


Oct 2 2012, 1:48am

Post #4 of 99 (1964 views)
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You may be right. [In reply to] Can't Post

If so, I agree on both your subsequent points, provided that build Bolg up as such. Some manner of, as SAppetite's link suggested, demon bred orc. An evil, bizzaro distort on Luthien, some spawn of goblin and evil Maiar. It would stretch the legendaria a bit (or a lot), but if properly explained, it could work on the threat credibility level. That said, it would take alot of explaining, and I think it would be better and more fitting (and less requiring of tortured explicating) if Gandalf were simply confronted by shadowy Maiar demons, of far less magnitude and rank than a Balrog of course, or by The Nazgul.

In Reply To
I'm becoming more and more convinced that Bolg isn't being depicted as just an orc, but as some kind of supernatural, necromantic, can't-be-killed, liquid-metal bad juju. I don't think that will make you (or me) feel any better, but at least Gandalf isn't a wuss.


"Hear me, hounds of Sauron, Gandalf is here! Fly if you value your foul skins, I will shrivel you from tail to snout if you step within this circle!"

"Do not be to eager to deal out death in judgement. Even the very wise cannot see all ends."


Sinister71
Tol Eressea


Oct 2 2012, 1:56am

Post #5 of 99 (1998 views)
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maybe I'm in the minority here but... [In reply to] Can't Post

I don't see a problem with the way it was written. Bolg being the son of Azog who was beheaded by Dain years before the events of the Hobbit. And Bolg being simply just a large Goblin/orc whatever PJ is calling them now days. All this zombie, undead supernatural stuff is just a bunch of Peter Jackson made up fan fiction nonsense to me. Just proves he wouldn't know a good story if it crept up and bit him on the backside.MadTongueMad... He just has to mess with it until its made into something that it wasn't and try and call it good film making and too many people just suck it up as "he knows what he is doing"...IMO obviously he doesn't know what he's doing if he has to creep this far from the source material to make an entertaining set of films UnsureMadMadMad


Phibbus
Rohan


Oct 2 2012, 2:02am

Post #6 of 99 (1843 views)
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I'm glad he SA posted the link [In reply to] Can't Post

I've posted links back to my original supposition that Bolg might be a Boldog a few times, but the Wikipedia article (with the quote I had been posting from HoME X contained in note 5) sums it up better and in the context of the early character.

As I posted earlier in the Yazneg thread, I think that character might be the demonic force underlying Azog's and Bolg's—one that may have a particular enmity toward the Dwarves (since I'm guessing the two flayed faces hanging from his belt may be Thrór's and Thrain's, and he may give one of these to Bolg to wear.)

Man is but an ass if he go about to expound this dream.


burgahobbit
Rohan


Oct 2 2012, 2:03am

Post #7 of 99 (1822 views)
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I agree with you as well [In reply to] Can't Post

I thought "undead" as soon as I saw the picture of Bolg that was under the Bridge Direct action figure. Kind of weird but we'll see how it goes...I really like the beard-trophy on Bolg though! Smile But now I'm getting completely off topic. Tongue


grinman
Rivendell


Oct 2 2012, 2:07am

Post #8 of 99 (1877 views)
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Gandalf is powerful... [In reply to] Can't Post

Gandalf's power limitations are mentioned several times (or at least alluded to) throughout the trilogy.

Forgive me for not finding quotes and paraphrasing:

When he was preparing to rescue the Dwarves from the Misty Mountain Goblins, he mentioned that he spent some TIME conjuring up his magic. In order for it to be as powerful as it was, he needed to actually focus and prepare it.

In the fight with the Wargs in the treetops, he lit pine cones on fire and tossed... note, he did not send flaming streams or fireballs down at them. He had to have something physical to work with... something that would actually burn. This was further evidenced when the Fellowship was trudging up Caradhras. He told Legolas (I think) that he couldn't light snow on fire, he needed dry wood in order for his conjuring to work.

When faced with the Balrog on the outside of the chamber of Mazarbul, after the balrog shattered his spell, I believe he mentioned that he didn't have the TIME to conjure a more powerful spell.

Those are just a couple of examples. His magic with the Trolls was deceptive and not really offensive. His fight with the Wargs in The Fellowship showed a bit more power, but again, I think he had a little more time to prepare as they knew (from the howls) that the Warg pack was approaching.

As Gandalf the White, I got the feeling that he was more powerful than Gandalf the Grey and that his magic was enhanced. So, anything he did in that form, I think shouldn't be counted in the argument.

So, using those examples as precedent, being attacked unprepared by a very physically powerful and imposing orc, I don't feel it's too outlandish to have Gandalf be on his heels for a bit. He was never shown in the books having a one-on-one physical battle with another character, so I think it will be interesting and new (to the audience) to see that Gandalf IS vulnerable, physically.


grinman
Rivendell


Oct 2 2012, 2:11am

Post #9 of 99 (1926 views)
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wow [In reply to] Can't Post

All this hate for something that's not even fact? Everyone is jumping to some MASSIVE conclusions based on very little evidence and lots of supposition. There have been some minor snippets of information regarding the necromancer and Bolg/Azog and how they will relate to each other and the story as a whole. If (IF!) Bolg is an undead demonic posessed orc looking for revenge on the dwarves, then.... lame. It'll probably make for some exciting and intense film, but not The Hobbit. Either way, I'm waiting until there's some evidence (as in my butt in the theater seat, my eyes seeing images) before I write off an entire movie...


AinurOlorin
Half-elven


Oct 2 2012, 2:11am

Post #10 of 99 (1961 views)
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I totally agree, EXCEPT, if Peter is determined to make Bolg a threat to Gandalf. [In reply to] Can't Post

As I said, I would MUCH rather the whole thing be handled very differently, but if Peter insists on Bolg being Gandalf's primary opponent in the Dol Guldur search, and the main threat facing him (defying all logic on so many levels. . . where is the threat from the actual Necromancer, for one!?), then Bolg has to be something much more than just a Lurtz and Ugluk prototype.

In Reply To
I don't see a problem with the way it was written. Bolg being the son of Azog who was beheaded by Dain years before the events of the Hobbit. And Bolg being simply just a large Goblin/orc whatever PJ is calling them now days. All this zombie, undead supernatural stuff is just a bunch of Peter Jackson made up fan fiction nonsense to me. Just proves he wouldn't know a good story if it crept up and bit him on the backside.MadTongueMad... He just has to mess with it until its made into something that it wasn't and try and call it good film making and too many people just suck it up as "he knows what he is doing"...IMO obviously he doesn't know what he's doing if he has to creep this far from the source material to make an entertaining set of films UnsureMadMadMad


"Hear me, hounds of Sauron, Gandalf is here! Fly if you value your foul skins, I will shrivel you from tail to snout if you step within this circle!"

"Do not be to eager to deal out death in judgement. Even the very wise cannot see all ends."


redgiraffe
Rohan

Oct 2 2012, 2:15am

Post #11 of 99 (1876 views)
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whoa whoa whoa whoa [In reply to] Can't Post

I missed something somewhere. Someone clue me in on what the speculation is and where it began.

-Sir are you classified as human
-Negative, I am a meat-popsicle


grinman
Rivendell


Oct 2 2012, 2:17am

Post #12 of 99 (1861 views)
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that's just it.. [In reply to] Can't Post

That's all this is. RAMPANT speculation with no foundation. An action figure 2 pack depicting (assumedly) a confrontation between Gandalf and Bolg.


redgiraffe
Rohan

Oct 2 2012, 2:20am

Post #13 of 99 (1818 views)
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okay i see [In reply to] Can't Post

I was expecting to find a big derail on one of the other threads like AinurOlorin was talking about but I didn't really notice any.

-Sir are you classified as human
-Negative, I am a meat-popsicle


grinman
Rivendell


Oct 2 2012, 2:23am

Post #14 of 99 (1796 views)
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3 pages back [In reply to] Can't Post

It's from a thread that AinurOlorin started that's dropped to page 3. It's another one of these making-up-things-to-worry-about threads.


redgiraffe
Rohan

Oct 2 2012, 2:24am

Post #15 of 99 (1944 views)
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Great Goblin and Boldogs [In reply to] Can't Post

I remember there was some talk that the Great Goblin could have also been a Maiar spirit. Strange, I would have thought PJ play that up for all it's worth rather than with Bolg.

-Sir are you classified as human
-Negative, I am a meat-popsicle


DarkJackal
Rohan


Oct 2 2012, 3:28am

Post #16 of 99 (1706 views)
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Know what you mean [In reply to] Can't Post

I missed all this too Smile Guess I better go back and read all these threads in order!

Oh, right, not actually going to do that Evil



The Hobbit Photo Gallery

(This post was edited by DarkJackal on Oct 2 2012, 3:29am)


Istaris'staffs
Rivendell


Oct 2 2012, 3:33am

Post #17 of 99 (1768 views)
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I think you're over reacting a little. [In reply to] Can't Post

I mean, first off, Bolg and Gandalf may have an extended type duel in AUJ. Think about this from the point of view of a toy manufacturer. "Oh, lookie here, a cool action scene, little boys will love it if we put the action figures together!" See? You're extrapolating from a very small amount of information. Who knows what will happen. And again, as you said, Gandalf is NOT portrayed as incredibly magical or incredibly powerful in the movies. You have to separate that from the books.


AinurOlorin
Half-elven


Oct 2 2012, 3:49am

Post #18 of 99 (1733 views)
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I take your point about it taking time for Gandalf to muster strong spells, however that overlooks what first happened with the goblins. [In reply to] Can't Post

you forget the several Goblins (at least six, and probably as many as 10, for there were 6 for each dwarf and 4 even for Bilbo) who were struck dead by the Wizard's lightning upon trying to grab him. A very serious omission if we are really considering what he was capable of doing, even in front of others. It also happened in an instant. The goblins were on the company within seconds of Bilbo's scream, but as is written, ". . . but not Gandalf. When goblins came for him there was a flash like lightning. . . and several of them fell dead. Where was Gandalf? Of that neither the dwarves nor the goblins had any idea. . ." And as the goblin driver says, "several of our people were struck by lightning when they invited these creatures into our home, and they are as dead as stones!"

As to the contest of magic with The Balrog for control of the door to The Chamber of Marzabul, their powers were roughly matched, as was their Wizardry/demonic sorcery. The Balrog was able to begin forcing the door open, and Gandalf placed a command upon it. The dueling magics proved too great a strain on the door itself, and the backlash of energy from the conflicitng spells burst the door and caused a large part of the chamber to be destroyed. It is true that Gandalf lacked the time to cast a more efficient spell, and he says so. But he was able to still work formidable magic in a pinch.

The question is, would that magic be sufficient to overwhelm one lone goblin or orc in a pinch, even a mighty orc lie Bolg. All evidence is that the answer should be a hard and definitive yes.

In Reply To
Gandalf's power limitations are mentioned several times (or at least alluded to) throughout the trilogy.

Forgive me for not finding quotes and paraphrasing:

When he was preparing to rescue the Dwarves from the Misty Mountain Goblins, he mentioned that he spent some TIME conjuring up his magic. In order for it to be as powerful as it was, he needed to actually focus and prepare it.

In the fight with the Wargs in the treetops, he lit pine cones on fire and tossed... note, he did not send flaming streams or fireballs down at them. He had to have something physical to work with... something that would actually burn. This was further evidenced when the Fellowship was trudging up Caradhras. He told Legolas (I think) that he couldn't light snow on fire, he needed dry wood in order for his conjuring to work.

When faced with the Balrog on the outside of the chamber of Mazarbul, after the balrog shattered his spell, I believe he mentioned that he didn't have the TIME to conjure a more powerful spell.

Those are just a couple of examples. His magic with the Trolls was deceptive and not really offensive. His fight with the Wargs in The Fellowship showed a bit more power, but again, I think he had a little more time to prepare as they knew (from the howls) that the Warg pack was approaching.

As Gandalf the White, I got the feeling that he was more powerful than Gandalf the Grey and that his magic was enhanced. So, anything he did in that form, I think shouldn't be counted in the argument.

So, using those examples as precedent, being attacked unprepared by a very physically powerful and imposing orc, I don't feel it's too outlandish to have Gandalf be on his heels for a bit. He was never shown in the books having a one-on-one physical battle with another character, so I think it will be interesting and new (to the audience) to see that Gandalf IS vulnerable, physically.


"Hear me, hounds of Sauron, Gandalf is here! Fly if you value your foul skins, I will shrivel you from tail to snout if you step within this circle!"

"Do not be to eager to deal out death in judgement. Even the very wise cannot see all ends."


AinurOlorin
Half-elven


Oct 2 2012, 3:52am

Post #19 of 99 (1762 views)
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Even in the movies, where his powers seem at times sadly diminished from what the novels describe, [In reply to] Can't Post

his powers are more than sufficient for subdoing an orc. If you can toss Saruman The White around for even a little while, and defy the demon enchanted, enormous, flaming blade of a Balrog, one orc should be quite managable. Also, in the trailer we see him splitting an enormous mound of solid stone in half to allow the sunlight to shine through on the trolls, so these films may be restoring some of his magnitude of power in that regard.

In Reply To
I mean, first off, Bolg and Gandalf may have an extended type duel in AUJ. Think about this from the point of view of a toy manufacturer. "Oh, lookie here, a cool action scene, little boys will love it if we put the action figures together!" See? You're extrapolating from a very small amount of information. Who knows what will happen. And again, as you said, Gandalf is NOT portrayed as incredibly magical or incredibly powerful in the movies. You have to separate that from the books.


"Hear me, hounds of Sauron, Gandalf is here! Fly if you value your foul skins, I will shrivel you from tail to snout if you step within this circle!"

"Do not be to eager to deal out death in judgement. Even the very wise cannot see all ends."


AinurOlorin
Half-elven


Oct 2 2012, 3:54am

Post #20 of 99 (1809 views)
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It isn't just the toy. Something is chasing a rather concerned Gandalf through the corridors of Dol Guldur [In reply to] Can't Post

in the trailer. The question is, is the something Bolg, and if so, is he alone, and if that is also true, why in the world should he be portrayed as being so threatening to Gandalf, who even in his limited incarnate form is reckoned as one of The Powers of The Third Age within the confines of Middle Earth.

In Reply To
That's all this is. RAMPANT speculation with no foundation. An action figure 2 pack depicting (assumedly) a confrontation between Gandalf and Bolg.


"Hear me, hounds of Sauron, Gandalf is here! Fly if you value your foul skins, I will shrivel you from tail to snout if you step within this circle!"

"Do not be to eager to deal out death in judgement. Even the very wise cannot see all ends."


Altaira
Superuser / Moderator


Oct 2 2012, 4:57am

Post #21 of 99 (1742 views)
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I'm at a bit of a loss [In reply to] Can't Post

...as to where you've come up with all the notions in your post, and why it upsets you so.

If I'm following it correctly from reading the previously 'hijacked' thread, you've become rather shockingly upset by some toy packaging and some off-the-cuff speculation about it by a few users here. I'm just wondering how you could possibly get from the point A (toy packaging and speculation) to point B (strongly upset), from the evidence (or lack thereof)?


Koru: Maori symbol representing a fern frond as it opens. The koru reaches towards the light, striving for perfection, encouraging new, positive beginnings.



"Life can't be all work and no TORn" -- jflower

"I take a moment to fervently hope that the camaradarie and just plain old fun I found at TORn will never end" -- LOTR_nutcase





dubulous
Rohan

Oct 2 2012, 5:05am

Post #22 of 99 (1624 views)
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I agree [In reply to] Can't Post

There's plenty in the books that shows there were limitations to Gandal's power. It's only as Gadalf the White that he really came to possess more of that power he as a maia would have, but as Gandalf the Grey his power, as it were, lied more in his wisdom than power in battle, even though he obviously was more powerful than your average man or elf or dwarf.


Voronwë_the_Faithful
Valinor

Oct 2 2012, 5:13am

Post #23 of 99 (1712 views)
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I find it vastly amusing [In reply to] Can't Post

I'm sorry, but I do. Hope it turns out in a way that I, you, AND AinurOlorin (and even Shelob'sAppetite) all end up liking (or at least not hating). Meanwhile, the earth will still keep orbiting around the sun, rotating daily.

'But very bright were the stars upon the margin of the world, when at times the clouds about the West were drawn aside.'

The Hall of Fire


Shelob'sAppetite
Valinor

Oct 2 2012, 5:39am

Post #24 of 99 (1702 views)
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Agreed [In reply to] Can't Post

Though I think it perfectly fair to make educated guesses about what may be in store for us, based on past experience (in this case, PJ's treatment of Gandalf's 'magic' in LOTR), hints from merchandise, etc.

There was a significant amount of such speculation prior to LOTR, and a non-trivial amount of that speculation turned out to be true. So, it's not wholly futile.

Plus, isn't this at least part of what boards like these are for? To speculate, based on small scraps of information, as opposed to testing hypotheses, based on large amounts of evidence?

Ainur may very well be correct in his fears. Or he may not be.

But let's not judge his mad speculation too harshly. It is a way of passing the time, and preparing (or desensitizing) oneself for what's to come.


redgiraffe
Rohan

Oct 2 2012, 5:52am

Post #25 of 99 (1640 views)
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hehe [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
It is a way of passing the time, and preparing (or desensitizing) oneself for what's to come.


It's also a way of raising our blood pressure throughout the dayWink

-Sir are you classified as human
-Negative, I am a meat-popsicle

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