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Tim
Dor-Lomin
Sep 28 2012, 4:41am
Post #51 of 77
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What Gandalf CAN do vs. what he wants (or is allowed) to do
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I've always kinda determined that when Gandalf doesn't carry the dwarves along with his power, he's doing it on purpose.
It's not a perfect reconciliation between Hobbit Gandalf and LOTR Gandalf, but it'll do for me.
King Arthur: You know much that is hidden oh Tim.
Tim: Quite.
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Shelob'sAppetite
Doriath
Sep 28 2012, 4:57am
Post #52 of 77
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I always had the general sense that Gandalf sort of followed the Spiderman code.
"With great power comes great responsibility."
He was a humble guy, he didn't want the Ring, and he didn't want to abuse the powers he possessed.
Works for me.
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Fardragon
Nargothrond
Sep 28 2012, 7:53am
Post #53 of 77
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are actually forbidden to use their full Maia power (apart from against other beings of the same rank).
The are meant to act as guides, not deus ex machina.
Saruman misuses his powers, and has them removed completely.
Gandalf bends the rules occasionally.
A Far Dragon is the best kind...
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Shelob'sAppetite
Doriath
Sep 28 2012, 4:27pm
Post #54 of 77
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Sort of like less-restrained, and more mission-oriented, eagles.
They can meddle, but they should not meddle too overtly. And they certainly shouldn't "control," as Saruman does.
(This post was edited by Shelob'sAppetite on Sep 28 2012, 4:29pm)
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AinurOlorin
Gondolin
Sep 29 2012, 12:46am
Post #55 of 77
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They are restrained, and their greater Spiritual power is, seemingly
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quarantined from their access. However they still had "many powers of mind and hand" which they were able to access and completely allowed to access.
Gandalf displays great power in aiding the dwarves. Not the full power of a Maia by ANY means. . . but a lot in a tight corner, as the saying went. I don't have an issue at all with Gandalf finding himself in a pinch. I do take issue with one single orc being suggested as a great challenge to him, as opposed to Wraith-Lords, Demon Thanes and other Wizards etc. are actually forbidden to use their full Maia power (apart from against other beings of the same rank).
The are meant to act as guides, not deus ex machina.
Saruman misuses his powers, and has them removed completely.
Gandalf bends the rules occasionally.
"Hear me, hounds of Sauron, Gandalf is here! Fly if you value your foul skins, I will shrivel you from tail to snout if you step within this circle!"
"Do not be to eager to deal out death in judgement. Even the very wise cannot see all ends."
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Tim
Dor-Lomin
Sep 29 2012, 2:04pm
Post #56 of 77
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I think my point was it may at that point SEEM to be a challenge to Gandy because he's making it look that way - so the dwarves don't end up leaning on him even more than they do.
Again, not a perfect way to look at things. I kinda believe that Tolkien hadn't fleshed out just how powerful Gandalf was when he wrote The Hobbit, then decided to make him stronger for LOTR.
But I am no Tolkien expert, I could be wrong.
King Arthur: You know much that is hidden oh Tim.
Tim: Quite.
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AinurOlorin
Gondolin
Sep 29 2012, 6:39pm
Post #57 of 77
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I think there is something to your speculation. But my issue isn't with the way Tolkien
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portrays Gandalf's power. It is with the possibility of Jackson underrepresenting it. I don't know what the Bolg situation will be. I do know that Tolkien never portrays any seen in which Gandalf remotely seems to be seriously threatened by single combat with any orc or goblin. Hundreds of orcs and wargs, yes, but not one goblin, no matter how tough. That is all I am saying. I would be fine with Gandalf having to fend off a score of orcs led by Bolg. But to suggest otherwise kind of gets into implying that Gandalf is, if anything, less capable of handling himself in a tight situation than Aragorn is. . . but we all know Aragorn could not begin to face a Balrog. I think my point was it may at that point SEEM to be a challenge to Gandy because he's making it look that way - so the dwarves don't end up leaning on him even more than they do.
Again, not a perfect way to look at things. I kinda believe that Tolkien hadn't fleshed out just how powerful Gandalf was when he wrote The Hobbit, then decided to make him stronger for LOTR.
But I am no Tolkien expert, I could be wrong.
"Hear me, hounds of Sauron, Gandalf is here! Fly if you value your foul skins, I will shrivel you from tail to snout if you step within this circle!"
"Do not be to eager to deal out death in judgement. Even the very wise cannot see all ends."
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Fardragon
Nargothrond
Sep 30 2012, 7:13am
Post #58 of 77
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Tolkien never portrays Gandalf the Grey as that powerful
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Sure, he kills the Goblin King, but he does it with wits, blinding his opponent with bright light. Trolls? Defeated with wits. Wargs? Gandalf is over-matched and has to be rescued. Tolkien doesn't detail what happened in Dol Guldur, but he make it clear he barely got out alive. Who kills Smaug? Certainly not Gandalf. Battle of five armies? Gandalf's deeds don't even warrant a mention, it's the dwarves, Beorn and the eagles that clock up the kills. Even the Balrog, against whom Gandalf can bring his full power, is a draw, wheras the elf warrior Glorfindel defeats one straight up.
As for Bolg, he takes out three of the most powerful dwarves (whilst Gandalf did nothing worth mentioning), and is defeated by a giant man-bear. So I don't have a problem with him being a serious threat to Gandalf.
I seem to recall somewhere Tolkien wrote "the role of the Istari was not to match power with power, but to bring council".
A Far Dragon is the best kind...
(This post was edited by Fardragon on Sep 30 2012, 7:18am)
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DanielLB
Elvenhome
Sep 30 2012, 10:01am
Post #59 of 77
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He was powerful enough though.
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Tolkien deliberately sent him on the Dol Guldur journey, so that he wasn't involved in the main Quest. Had he stayed with the company, everything from Mirkwood to the death of Smaug would have been a lot different.
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Fardragon
Nargothrond
Sep 30 2012, 10:10am
Post #60 of 77
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he would have got aid from Thranduil, rather than get thrown into prison.
He adds wisdom, not power.
A Far Dragon is the best kind...
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Fardragon
Nargothrond
Sep 30 2012, 10:30am
Post #62 of 77
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This is one of the most untrue things I have ever read.
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With great power, comes significant wisdom.
A Far Dragon is the best kind...
(This post was edited by Fardragon on Sep 30 2012, 10:31am)
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Fardragon
Nargothrond
Sep 30 2012, 10:47am
Post #64 of 77
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But it's wasn't power that made her wise.
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Indeed, power usually has exactly the opposite effect, both in Tolkien and in reality.
A Far Dragon is the best kind...
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DanielLB
Elvenhome
Sep 30 2012, 10:50am
Post #65 of 77
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Ahh, it seems you misunderstood me then
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And that's down to how I worded it. I didn't mean that one who becomes very powerful, also becomes wise. Look at Sauron ...
But power and wisdom do go hand in hand. You can be very powerful, and very wise. Especially if your power is wisdom. Which, as I suggested above, is the case of Galadriel and Gandalf.
In any case, I think we're going off on a tangent. My original point is that Gandalf was powerful (physically and through wisdom) and had to be shoed away, for the story of The Hobbit to work. The Quest would have been too easy if Gandalf had stayed with the company.
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(This post was edited by DanielLB on Sep 30 2012, 10:52am)
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Fardragon
Nargothrond
Sep 30 2012, 10:55am
Post #66 of 77
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Wisdom can give you a degree of power
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Which, in Gandalf's case, manifests largely as foresight. He is able to foresee that Smaug could ally with Sauron, and foresee what chain of events to set in motion in order to neutralise the threat (but the details are hidden from him).
He knows which pieces to move in order to defeat Smaug, but he can't march up to the front gate of the Lonely Mountain and defeat Smaug himself.
A Far Dragon is the best kind...
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DanielLB
Elvenhome
Sep 30 2012, 11:07am
Post #67 of 77
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I don't think Gandalf the Grey could have defeated Smaug alone, though it might depend on the circumstances and the environment. Look at the Balrog, Gandalf was only able to destroy him after he was quenched by the lake.
In any case, Gandalf staying with the company would have had other important repercussions., and still made the Quest easier.
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Fardragon
Nargothrond
Sep 30 2012, 2:16pm
Post #68 of 77
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would have any more chance against Smaug than anyone else, including Bilbo.
A Far Dragon is the best kind...
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Fardragon
Nargothrond
Sep 30 2012, 4:40pm
Post #70 of 77
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Bard is the one the Valar "meant" to kill Smaug. So he is in the right place at the right time, with the right skills, the right weapon, and the right information.
A Far Dragon is the best kind...
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AinurOlorin
Gondolin
Oct 1 2012, 8:09am
Post #72 of 77
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He does not blind his opponent with Bright lights. That is a Jackson thing.
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Has everyone been reading these chapters? "The Lights went out, the great fire went off into a tower of glowing blue smoke that scattered white sparks amongst the goblins. . . the sparks were burning holes IN the goblins etc."
The Warg scene in LOTR, "In The Wavering Firelight Gandalf seemed suddenly to grow. He rose up, a great menacing shape like the monument of some ancient king. . . stooping like a cloud, he stode to meet the wargs. They gave back before him. High in the air he tossed the blazing brand. . . it flared with radiance like lightning and his voice rolled like thunder. . . the tree above him burst into a bloom of brilliant flame. . . the fire lept from tree top to tree top etc. etc."
To quote Sam, "Whatever may be in store for old Gandalf, I'll wager it isn't the wolf's belly. . . What did I tell you Mr. Pippin?! Wolves won't get him! That was an eye opener and no mistake! Nearly singed the hair off my head he did!"
He also battles all The Nine Nazgul Lords, wielding in some fashion searing flame and "lightning that leaps up from the ground" from nightfall until dawn. Do you think Bolg could manage half as much?
And he is not shown to bring his full power to bear against The Balrog. Also, Glorfindel was very mighty among The High Elves, and even so, his feat in defeating a Balrog (it was more the fall than Glorfindel btw) was accounted a very mighty and legendary deed among the Elves, and a deed which few Elves ever replicated, whilst many of their great warriors and some of their great kings were felled by The Demons of Might.
Gandalf is limited in his earthly form, and forbidden from matching the power of Sauron with his own Maia power. He is not an all powerful super badass, and I am not suggesting otherwise. He is, however, very powerful. As mighty, in his way, as dread Powers like The Balrog (who, I will remind you, routed an entire kingdom of dwarves, after slaying their kings and many of their warriors, and the very power and fear of whom drove hosts of Elves from Lothlorien). He actually was GOING to kill a great number of the goblins, at his own expense, hurling down like a Thunderbolt. And at The Battle of Five armies, he is merely reffered to as "preparing some magic blast". Also, the lack of mention beyond him preparing some magic blast does not mean he did nothing worth mentioning. Thorin is in large part mentioned because he led a charge and the focus was on his tale, which was soon to end. Beorn played the key role in the saving of Thorin. The Eagles were the fifth army. You cannot assume that Gandalf, Thranduil, Bard, Dain and a host of other notables did not do any impressive fighting just because Tolkien didn't spend a paragraph of "oh by the way and in the meantime" on each of them.
You are seriously misrepresenting and underrepresenting a number of events here. I am not suggesting for a moment that Gandalf would come through wielding unstoppable Dumbledore spells, but let us dispense right now with the utterly false notion that he never is shown to do more than shine some damn light in people's faces. Peter may have portrayed it thus (and actually, even Peter actually gives him much more powers than you seem willing to credit him withm and certainly more than enough to overwhelm any lone goblin or orc in combat), but in the books he is clearly shown to wield notable Power, and "while he could not do everything, he could do a great deal for friends in a tight place." As Strider puts it, "I do not know of anything that could have hindered him, save The Enemy Himself. But do not give up hope! Gandalf is greater than you Shire-Folk know. As a rule you can see only his jokes and toys. . ." Aragorn later says, as they journey through Moria, "Do not be afraid! Do not be afraid. I have been with Gandalf on many a journey, if never one so dark, and there are tales in Rivendell of greater deeds of his than any I have seen."
Lets not totally disregard the books in making our assesments Fandragon. Gandalf did not storm about the world in an overwhelming godform, but he was a Force to be reckoned with, and beyond the recokoning of any singular orc warrior. For these films to suggest otherwise would not only disrespect Gandalf. . . it would rather badly downplay and disprespect the dread power of The Balrog. Sure, he kills the Goblin King, but he does it with wits, blinding his opponent with bright light. Trolls? Defeated with wits. Wargs? Gandalf is over-matched and has to be rescued. Tolkien doesn't detail what happened in Dol Guldur, but he make it clear he barely got out alive. Who kills Smaug? Certainly not Gandalf. Battle of five armies? Gandalf's deeds don't even warrant a mention, it's the dwarves, Beorn and the eagles that clock up the kills. Even the Balrog, against whom Gandalf can bring his full power, is a draw, wheras the elf warrior Glorfindel defeats one straight up.
As for Bolg, he takes out three of the most powerful dwarves (whilst Gandalf did nothing worth mentioning), and is defeated by a giant man-bear. So I don't have a problem with him being a serious threat to Gandalf.
I seem to recall somewhere Tolkien wrote "the role of the Istari was not to match power with power, but to bring council".
"Hear me, hounds of Sauron, Gandalf is here! Fly if you value your foul skins, I will shrivel you from tail to snout if you step within this circle!"
"Do not be to eager to deal out death in judgement. Even the very wise cannot see all ends."
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AinurOlorin
Gondolin
Oct 1 2012, 8:17am
Post #73 of 77
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No. Not just because of Thranduil. Tolkien specifically said he had to find somewhere to
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send Gandalf because of the Wizard's power. He would have constantly overshadowed Bilbo. He would have kept them on the path, and driven off any over bold spiders and forest creatures, robbing Bilbo of his moment etc. etc. He did rather a great deal more than the "blinding his opponent with light" that you seem to remember in the Great Goblins cavern. You also managed to forget the several Goblins (at least six, and probably as many as 10, for there were 6 for each dwarf and 4 even for Bilbo) who were struck dead by the Wizard's lightning upon trying to grab him. A very serious omission if we are really considering what he was capable of doing, even in front of others. Yes, his friendship with Thranduil would have voided the incident there, but the entire journey through Mirkwood would have gone differently with him present. Most nasty forest creatures don't care for uncanny fire that burns into your flesh and engulfs you in moments if not quickly put out. he would have got aid from Thranduil, rather than get thrown into prison.
He adds wisdom, not power.
"Hear me, hounds of Sauron, Gandalf is here! Fly if you value your foul skins, I will shrivel you from tail to snout if you step within this circle!"
"Do not be to eager to deal out death in judgement. Even the very wise cannot see all ends."
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Fardragon
Nargothrond
Oct 1 2012, 2:49pm
Post #74 of 77
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boils down to simply knowing what to do in a given situation.
Can he blast enemies out of existence with magic? Maybe some weak ones, but most he has to stick with a sword, just like everyone else. Your example indicated what he isn't capable of doing: blasting 88 goblins. Nor can he blast Nazgul, or trolls, or the Great Goblin, or wargs.
Is he immune to injury? No, his physical form can be injured or killed with a weapon just like a mortal. He can be sent back if the Valar choose, but he will need a new body and it takes some time to recover.
Does he have superhuman strength? Can he fly? Can he teleport? Can he move at superhuman speed? Can he turn invisible? is he incorruptible? No to all of these.
Even a Maia at full power, augmented by the ring of power, can be defeated by a mortal (Isuldur, and that's not the only time mortals and elves defeat Maia in combat).
And, the Istari are further limited by the physical forms they inhabit. Gandalf the White is more powerful than Gandalf the Grey. It's the same Maia, so the power level must be tied to the physical form.
And then he has "rules of engagement", to use a modern military term, which limit what he is allowed to do.
To summarise:
1) Maia are far from omnipotent, and can be defeated by mortals.
2) Istari are further limited by the form they inhabit.
3) They are limited further by rules they are supposed to follow.
A Far Dragon is the best kind...
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AinurOlorin
Gondolin
Oct 2 2012, 12:55am
Post #75 of 77
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Some corrections. And sorry about hijacking this post. Amended later.
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1) A blast that will kill 6 to 10 goblins would probably kill one big orc.
2) Gandalf testing out his awesome new sword on The Great Goblin is not proof that he could not have killed the monster in any other way.
3)Nazgul are powerful sorcerers. If he were facing The Nine in Dol Guldur (perhaps a transplant of his battle with them that was omitted from the FOTR film) you wouldn't hear me complaining about misrepresentation of power. Are you suggesting Bolg is as mighty as The Nine?
As Gandalf The White, he was impervious to mortal weapons, but that is neither here nor there as we are discussing The Grey. Did I say he was invulnerable in his manlike incarnation? Don't recall having done so.
He does have superhuman strength. Not on the level of Superman or He-Man of course, but the books describe several situations where his hidden physical strength was revealed. Aside from obvious things like surviving the fall with The Balrog, or in the films, surviving Saruman propelling him at high speeds against the walls and high ceiling of Orthanc, there are comments in the books, including his lifting Faramir from the pyre as easily as one might lift a small child, "revealing the strength that lay hidden within him. . ."
He probably can turn invisible. Recall, after the flash amidst The Goblins, no one sees him again until he performs his fire enchantments in the cave of The Great Goblin. Goblins see very well in the dark, so the fact that after the flash they had no better idea of where he had dissapeared to than the dwarves suggest some ability to become quite unobtrusive. Invisibility was the least of The Ring's Powers, and was not a distinguishing trait, else it would have been identified sooner. Of course, invisibility that works on Orcs would likely not work against Balrogs, Sauron or other Spiritually powerful evils.
Isildur, Gil-Galad and Elindil (who together overwhelmed Sauron) were fated. Eowyn and Merry were far outmatched by THe Witch King, but sometimes fate and The Will of The Valar prevails over the balance of lesser Powers.
As to defeating Elves and Men defeating Maia. . . rare and legendary even for The High Elves. There is no account of a mortal human doing so, save the mixed situation of Isildur, after Sauron had already been worn by battle with Gil-Galad and Elendil together.
boils down to simply knowing what to do in a given situation.
Can he blast enemies out of existence with magic? Maybe some weak ones, but most he has to stick with a sword, just like everyone else. Your example indicated what he isn't capable of doing: blasting 88 goblins. Nor can he blast Nazgul, or trolls, or the Great Goblin, or wargs.
Is he immune to injury? No, his physical form can be injured or killed with a weapon just like a mortal. He can be sent back if the Valar choose, but he will need a new body and it takes some time to recover.
Does he have superhuman strength? Can he fly? Can he teleport? Can he move at superhuman speed? Can he turn invisible? is he incorruptible? No to all of these.
Even a Maia at full power, augmented by the ring of power, can be defeated by a mortal (Isuldur, and that's not the only time mortals and elves defeat Maia in combat).
And, the Istari are further limited by the physical forms they inhabit. Gandalf the White is more powerful than Gandalf the Grey. It's the same Maia, so the power level must be tied to the physical form.
And then he has "rules of engagement", to use a modern military term, which limit what he is allowed to do.
To summarise:
1) Maia are far from omnipotent, and can be defeated by mortals.
2) Istari are further limited by the form they inhabit.
3) They are limited further by rules they are supposed to follow.
"Hear me, hounds of Sauron, Gandalf is here! Fly if you value your foul skins, I will shrivel you from tail to snout if you step within this circle!"
"Do not be to eager to deal out death in judgement. Even the very wise cannot see all ends."
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