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The One Ring Forums: Tolkien Topics: Movie Discussion: The Hobbit:
Nazgul tombs
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Fardragon
Rohan

Sep 30 2012, 8:28am

Post #1 of 52 (3269 views)
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Nazgul tombs Can't Post

How much do we actually KNOW, as opposed to speculation?

Are they in Dol Guldur or on the Barrow Downs?

Are there nine, or are there fewer?

A Far Dragon is the best kind...


DanielLB
Immortal


Sep 30 2012, 9:48am

Post #2 of 52 (1651 views)
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Very little ... [In reply to] Can't Post

If you use the "search posts" function you'll get a whole heap of speculation, but also a couple of links back to CinemaCon.

Off the top of my head, we know there is a Witch-king crypt, and 8 other empty tombs. The location is unknown. And a White Council scene discussing the imprisonment of the Witch-King, and the morgul blade.

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lidlessEye
Rivendell

Sep 30 2012, 10:11am

Post #3 of 52 (1668 views)
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maybe... [In reply to] Can't Post

...they're in carn dūm
angmar isn't so far from the shire (it was a much greater distance for gandalf to ride from the shire to isengard in FotR)
if gandalf leaves the dwarfes in the shire, he could leave for carn dūm and make it back in time to rescue the company from the trolls (the journey from shire to trollshaws is more then one week in the book).
i would love to see the ancient ruins of the witchking's fortress


DanielLB
Immortal


Sep 30 2012, 10:16am

Post #4 of 52 (1641 views)
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Personally, I think Angmar is a little bit of a stretch for Gandalf to reach in one night. [In reply to] Can't Post

Not impossible, especially if PJ reduces the distance between Trollshaws and Angmar. It's more likely these tombs are in the Barrow-downs or somewhere in the Ettenmoors.

Also, we don't even know if that's where Gandalf goes off to that night.

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Fardragon
Rohan

Sep 30 2012, 10:26am

Post #5 of 52 (1498 views)
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Yes, that is the third option [In reply to] Can't Post

Gandalf discovers the morgul blade and leaves the dwarves to investigate. He finds the empty tombs whilst the dwarves get into trouble with the trolls.

The other options would seem to be:

They are in Dol Guldur, Gandalf finds them when he finds mad Thrain, recounted in flashback. However, the only proof Gandalf is able to come up with is the Morgul blade, and the threat is discounted by Saruman. In this version, Dol Guldur would have been a nazgul stronghold in the past, where they where defeated. Thus accounting for Dol Guldur being ruined.

As a less likely option, "Fog on the Barrow Downs" from Fellowship could be moved, with the dwarves losing the road in thick fog between Shire and Trollshaws, and Gandalf having to rescue them, and coming across the empty tombs, which would be Barrows.

In all cases, the biggest problem with lore is having all nine nazgul imprisoned, since if this is the case, who is occupying Minas Morgul?

A Far Dragon is the best kind...

(This post was edited by Fardragon on Sep 30 2012, 10:33am)


lidlessEye
Rivendell

Sep 30 2012, 10:33am

Post #6 of 52 (1484 views)
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... [In reply to] Can't Post

only people who've read the book, know, that angmar is a bigger distance then onlly one night away - but the same people know as well, that the journey from shire to trollshaws is as well a journey of more then one day/night

in the footage-description galadriel says, that the men from the north imprisioned the nazgul with a spell in a crypt.
so maybe its the place where the nazgul are defeated in the battle of fornost - so maybe its fornost


Fardragon
Rohan

Sep 30 2012, 10:45am

Post #7 of 52 (1543 views)
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Reference to "men of the north" [In reply to] Can't Post

Would seem to make Dol Guldur unlikely. Galadriel/PJ would probably assign credit to the elves under those circumstances.

The location of the crypt (which can just mean "underground chamber") could be pretty much anywhere around Arnor, including Rhudaur, the ruins of which are mentioned in Fellowship (book).

A Far Dragon is the best kind...


Lacrimae Rerum
Grey Havens

Sep 30 2012, 10:52am

Post #8 of 52 (1433 views)
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Not that it is a question [In reply to] Can't Post

Which I think either set of films are likely to prompt I would think Orcs would be the most likely alternative occupiers.

LR


Elenorflower
Gondor


Sep 30 2012, 11:34am

Post #9 of 52 (1441 views)
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how can they [In reply to] Can't Post

have tombs if they are not technically dead, they just faded into wraiths didnt they?
edit, well they are dead I suppose, but they werent killed, they just transmogrywotsited. Crazy


(This post was edited by Elenorflower on Sep 30 2012, 11:37am)


Fardragon
Rohan

Sep 30 2012, 2:14pm

Post #10 of 52 (1285 views)
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You can be [In reply to] Can't Post

Entombed without having to be dead.

A Far Dragon is the best kind...


Eowyn of Penns Woods
Valinor


Sep 30 2012, 3:18pm

Post #11 of 52 (1192 views)
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Count Nazgula who "vants to knife your neck!" X 9. // [In reply to] Can't Post

 

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Phibbus
Rohan


Sep 30 2012, 3:26pm

Post #12 of 52 (1231 views)
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Hehe [In reply to] Can't Post

I think Jackson probably does want to create vampiristic associations for the Nazgul.

I've often thought Tolkien does the same. Note their difficulties with crowing roosters, crossing running water, and entering houses unbidden.

Still not sure about this tomb business, though.

Man is but an ass if he go about to expound this dream.


Lightice
Lorien

Sep 30 2012, 3:42pm

Post #13 of 52 (1341 views)
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I really doubt that they can play a significant role. [In reply to] Can't Post

If the Nazgūl were actually in any way significant presence in The Hobbit, there would be a hell to explain why they don't sense the numerous times Bilbo puts on the Ring, and go after him on the spot.

I actually hope that PJ will cut that bit about the tombs from the theatrical release, and put it in the extended cut as a little extra spice to tie the two movie series together. On its own it does very little for the story, but if the Nazgūl were actually in the story in person, they would change the plot massively with their presence.


DanielLB
Immortal


Sep 30 2012, 4:13pm

Post #14 of 52 (1200 views)
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Prepare for ... [In reply to] Can't Post

them to be in! I think it's more likely they will be in the films (in some form) than not.

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Mr. Arkenstone (isaac)
Grey Havens


Sep 30 2012, 4:24pm

Post #15 of 52 (1155 views)
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What about Amon Sul? [In reply to] Can't Post

Those statues at Weathertop reminded me to the original forms of the fallen kings.I“m more of a diferent scenary but I wouldn“t be surprised if they go that way

I can not guarantee his safety - understood...
Nor will I be responsible for his fate - Doh!


Fardragon
Rohan

Sep 30 2012, 4:34pm

Post #16 of 52 (1197 views)
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Though the Nazgul are in [In reply to] Can't Post

They will never come anywhere near Bilbo and the dwarves. At least no closer than they are in the book (Dol Guldur).

The tombs exist so Gandalf can gradually uncover the truth about Dol Guldur, rather then it be already known at the start.

I expect they are also a reason to call the master of Dol Guldur "Necromancer", since I doubt he would ever use such a name himself.

A Far Dragon is the best kind...

(This post was edited by Fardragon on Sep 30 2012, 4:35pm)


Shelob'sAppetite
Valinor

Sep 30 2012, 4:37pm

Post #17 of 52 (1184 views)
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Please no [In reply to] Can't Post

I do despised the Weathertop scene in the films, that I really don't want to see it again! Smile


lidlessEye
Rivendell

Sep 30 2012, 5:46pm

Post #18 of 52 (1103 views)
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it's funny... [In reply to] Can't Post

...how many people still think:
"its not in the hobbit, so it can't be in the movie..."

guys face it: its a movie about the hobbit and the appendices of LotR - so there will be a lot of stuff, which has a prequel-caracter to LotR.
so the nazgul will play a significant role in these films


Lieutenant of Dol Guldur
Gondor


Sep 30 2012, 6:08pm

Post #19 of 52 (1037 views)
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The same explanation as in 'Fellowship" [In reply to] Can't Post

At the beginning of "Fellowship" it was possible for Bilbo to use the One Ring (e.g. at his party) without any problems with Sauron and the Nazgūl. Years later when Gandalf discovered the truth behind the Ring he revealed it to Frodo (and Sam). He says something like "The Ring has awoken, he has heard the cry of it's master". Sauron is recovering his power during that time. He's rebuilding Barad-Dūr and his Orcs are increasing themselves. He now "sees everything" as Saruman tells Gandalf and tells us that during "The Hobbit" Sauron/The Necromancer wasn't powerful enough to see where his ring was although it was used by someone like Bilbo or Smeagol. And if Sauron wasn't powerful enough at that time the Nazgūl weren't either. It's all in "The Fellowship of the Ring" guys. So there won't be a problem with an explanation because we already have it.

Aside from that I think that the Nine will appear in "The Hobbit". They won't cross the Anduin, they won't hunt the company but some of them might play an important part in the Battle of Dol Guldur defending their master. But not the Witch King 'cause Gandalf tells Pippin in RotK that he never confronts him before. But perhaps we are gonna see Khamūl and one or two more Nazgūl at Dol Guldur?

"There is only one Lord of the Ring, only one who can bend it to his will. And he does not share power."


Ardamķrė
Valinor


Sep 30 2012, 9:16pm

Post #20 of 52 (989 views)
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Barrow-downs [In reply to] Can't Post

I'll be disappointed if these tombs end up as something other than the Barrow-downs. Since that seems to be the inspiration, just go all the way and do the barrow-down chapters from LOTR.

"...and his first memory of Middle-earth was the green stone above her breast as she sang above his cradle while Gondolin was still in flower." -Unfinished Tales


Ardamķrė
Valinor


Sep 30 2012, 9:18pm

Post #21 of 52 (883 views)
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I like option 3 [In reply to] Can't Post

I'd love to see the Barrow-down chapters from LOTR. Unlikely that we'll get Ol' Tom, but Gandalf saving them seems to be an agreeable alternative.

"...and his first memory of Middle-earth was the green stone above her breast as she sang above his cradle while Gondolin was still in flower." -Unfinished Tales


Lightice
Lorien

Sep 30 2012, 10:00pm

Post #22 of 52 (896 views)
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I doubt that. [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
I'd love to see the Barrow-down chapters from LOTR. Unlikely that we'll get Ol' Tom, but Gandalf saving them seems to be an agreeable alternative.


This is highly unlikely. We already have the encounter with Bert, Tom and Will after leaving the Shire and before entering Mirkwood. Having the scene from the Barrow-downs would be essentially repetition of all the basic elements of that scene, with Gandalf providing the rescue, in the end. Having the same structure in two scenes right after one another would dilute both significantly, not to mention that hungry trolls don't have all that much menace after an undead monstrosity.

The whole scene with the Nazgūl tombs, if it even is in this movie and not the second, is most likely to be a flashback of some sort. It may for example be the incentive for Gandalf to go snooping at Dol Guldur, and find Thrain and the key he's carrying.


DanielLB
Immortal


Sep 30 2012, 10:05pm

Post #23 of 52 (873 views)
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That's the entire book anyway! [In reply to] Can't Post

Get caught by trolls, Gandalf saves them.
Get caught by goblins, Gandalf saves them.
Get caught in burning trees, Eagles save them.
Get caught by spiders, Bilbo saves them.
Get caught be Elves, Bilbo saves them.

One more wouldn't hurt. Tongue

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Sinister71
Tol Eressea


Sep 30 2012, 10:09pm

Post #24 of 52 (729 views)
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I hoping it is [In reply to] Can't Post

merely some flashback before the current events taking place in the time of the Hobbit. I still hate the idea of everything in middle earth being linked to Sauron and his ring. But I hope this is the case and the Nazgul nonsense is just part of history as part of the White Council subplot and it won't cross over into the main quest of Bilbo and the dwarves.


Lightice
Lorien

Sep 30 2012, 10:18pm

Post #25 of 52 (856 views)
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There's a difference. [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
One more wouldn't hurt. Tongue


The difference is that there's room to breathe between those events. A some sort of respite or safe haven before the next challenge. The elves don't count because in spite of imprisonment, they are still more a safe haven, since they don't represent a physical threat to the dwarves.

The trolls are meant to be the first, "low level" threat before greater challenges. A barrow-wight would ruin that structure.

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