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The One Ring Forums: Tolkien Topics: Movie Discussion: The Hobbit:
Galadriel and the Walls of Dol Guldur
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Elenorflower
Gondor


Sep 26 2012, 8:27pm

Post #1 of 66 (2537 views)
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Galadriel and the Walls of Dol Guldur Can't Post

After the fall of the Dark Tower and the passing of Sauron the Shadow was lifted from the hearts of all who opposed him, but fear and despair fell upon his servants and allies. Three times Lórien had been assailed from Dol Guldur, but besides the valour of the elven people of that land, the power that dwelt there was too great for any to overcome, unless Sauron had come there himself. Though grievous harm was done to the fair woods on the borders, the assaults were driven back; and when the Shadow passed, Celeborn came forth and led the host of Lórien over Anduin in many boats. They took Dol Guldur, and Galadriel threw down its walls and laid bare its pits, and the forest was cleansed. Appendix B



I dont know if this is an issue or not as regards continuity, but if Galadriel threw down the walls of DolGuldur after the defeat of Sauron, surely she cant already have done it during the time of the Hobbit?


Otaku-sempai
Half-elven


Sep 26 2012, 8:42pm

Post #2 of 66 (972 views)
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I assume that the fortress is captured, not destroyed in AUJ [In reply to] Can't Post

Also assuming that this isn't an alteration by Peter Jackson and his team.

'Thus spake Ioreth, wise-woman of Gondor: The hands of the king are the hands of a healer, and so shall the rightful king be known.' - Gandalf the White


Sinister71
Tol Eressea


Sep 26 2012, 8:45pm

Post #3 of 66 (922 views)
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why not? [In reply to] Can't Post

Peter Jackson has already proved he cares little about Tolkien's timelines or events falling into place where they should. As long as he can use them to satisfy his own desire and need to have them placed where he wants them. It doesn't matter what time they came from as long as he has the rights to adapt them into any form he sees fit...Crazy

That said I don't like the idea of changing times like that but anything is possible since Galadriel is the most powerful being in middle earth Angelic Wink after allSmile


DanielLB
Immortal


Sep 26 2012, 8:47pm

Post #4 of 66 (907 views)
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I'd be happy for Galadriel to destroy Dol Guldur during The Hobbit [In reply to] Can't Post

They never mentioned any of the events (the wars in the North) in the LOTR trilogy. Since this is our last return to Middle-earth, then I'd be happy for PJ to shuffle history a bit, and have Galadriel destroy Dol Guldur during the time of The Hobbit.

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Kangi Ska
Half-elven


Sep 26 2012, 9:01pm

Post #5 of 66 (868 views)
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By the way I concure with the Idea [In reply to] Can't Post

that Galadriel is the most powerful Elf in Middle-earth. Even greater than your beloved Glorfindel. She wears Nenya the Ring of Adamant and that makes a big difference.

Kangi Ska Resident Trickster & Wicked White Crebain
Life is an adventure, not a contest.

At night you can not tell if crows are black or white.
Photobucket



(This post was edited by Kangi Ska on Sep 26 2012, 9:05pm)


Captain Salt
Tol Eressea


Sep 26 2012, 9:06pm

Post #6 of 66 (824 views)
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Perhaps Galadriel's already destroyed it by the time of TH? [In reply to] Can't Post

Dol Guldur looks to be a castle/fortress, rather than a tower, and appears to be basically ruins by the time of TH from what little we've seen...I wonder if Galadriel destroyed it in the past (perhaps during the last war with Sauron), and we'll see this in flashback?

But as Dol Guldur is neither seen or mentioned in LotR, and both it and Galadriel are in TH, I'd expect to see this occur at some point, it being such an evocative image.

But slightly off-topic, the concept drawing of what I assume is the Necromancer's inner-sanctum from vlog 1 shows what is very much a complete chamber, not simply the ruins of a castle...does the Necromancer have a re-built section of Dol Guldur (perhaps underground)...or another fortress near-by? Perhaps the "Battle of Dul Guldur" will include the titular locale, and the surrounding environment where Sauron has another fastness? That seems redundant, but whatever. Tongue

My Top 5 Wish List for "The Hobbit"
5. Legolas will surf down Smaug's neck
4. Bilbo will be revealed to a Robot
3. Naked PJ cameo as Ghan-Buri-Ghan
2. Use of not only 3D, but smell-o-vision, plus the inclusion of axes coming out of the seats and poking the audience when appropriate
1. Not only keep the claim that Thorin & Co. ran amok in Mirkwood "molesting people", but depict said incident in vivid detail!!!!!


DanielLB
Immortal


Sep 26 2012, 9:08pm

Post #7 of 66 (794 views)
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Perhaps the ruins in the trailer weren't of Dol Guldur [In reply to] Can't Post

They could be the location of the Ringwraith tombs?

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Kangi Ska
Half-elven


Sep 26 2012, 9:08pm

Post #8 of 66 (870 views)
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I think that the destruction of Dol Guldur by Galadriel [In reply to] Can't Post

would take too much focus away from the central plot. (Bilbo, Thorin & Company).

Kangi Ska Resident Trickster & Wicked White Crebain
Life is an adventure, not a contest.

At night you can not tell if crows are black or white.
Photobucket



DanielLB
Immortal


Sep 26 2012, 9:12pm

Post #9 of 66 (813 views)
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It would be the conclusion to the sub-plot [In reply to] Can't Post

It needs a conclusion. As long as it's doesn't over-power whichever film it's in, nor is more exciting than the BO5A, it should be alright. Smile

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Captain Salt
Tol Eressea


Sep 26 2012, 9:16pm

Post #10 of 66 (812 views)
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Possibly, thought it would match the description of the location from Empire's July 2011 article: [In reply to] Can't Post


Quote
The week following Empire's visit, the director will shoot Gandalf and Elrond scouting the murky dungeons of forest fastness Dol Guldur (by early designs, a ruin of stone slipping back into the rancid grasp of Mirkwood Forest".



My Top 5 Wish List for "The Hobbit"
5. Legolas will surf down Smaug's neck
4. Bilbo will be revealed to a Robot
3. Naked PJ cameo as Ghan-Buri-Ghan
2. Use of not only 3D, but smell-o-vision, plus the inclusion of axes coming out of the seats and poking the audience when appropriate
1. Not only keep the claim that Thorin & Co. ran amok in Mirkwood "molesting people", but depict said incident in vivid detail!!!!!


DanielLB
Immortal


Sep 26 2012, 9:18pm

Post #11 of 66 (734 views)
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Good memory :-) [In reply to] Can't Post

Perhaps there is more to Dol Guldur then. Someone suggested the other day there could be more underground? And perhaps it's more "fortress-like" closer to the ground - below the tree canopy?

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Captain Salt
Tol Eressea


Sep 26 2012, 9:21pm

Post #12 of 66 (751 views)
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Actually I had a copy of the article on-hand, but thanks anyway! ;) And this seems likely.... [In reply to] Can't Post

Agreed it's entirely possibly only the upper-levels/parapets are derelict (perhaps Sauron has only re-built the sections he's actively using, while trying to maintain a facade that Dol Guldur is abandoned)?...or an underground segment seems within the realm of possibility as well.

My Top 5 Wish List for "The Hobbit"
5. Legolas will surf down Smaug's neck
4. Bilbo will be revealed to a Robot
3. Naked PJ cameo as Ghan-Buri-Ghan
2. Use of not only 3D, but smell-o-vision, plus the inclusion of axes coming out of the seats and poking the audience when appropriate
1. Not only keep the claim that Thorin & Co. ran amok in Mirkwood "molesting people", but depict said incident in vivid detail!!!!!


DanielLB
Immortal


Sep 26 2012, 9:26pm

Post #13 of 66 (739 views)
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Agreed, and I hope this is the case [In reply to] Can't Post

At the moment, solely based on the screenshot, it doesn't look like a key stronghold ...

Unless this is pre-Sauron take over. When Gandalf originally investigated, Sauron fled to the East. This could be Dol Guldur during the Watchful Peace? On returning, perhaps he re-builds the fortress - á la Barad-dur?

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Sinister71
Tol Eressea


Sep 26 2012, 9:27pm

Post #14 of 66 (726 views)
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Well he was in hiding after all [In reply to] Can't Post

and didn't want the peoples of Middle earth to know of his return, Yet. The only ones who actually knew were the white council, so it would make sense in him keeping it low key and under ground


Lacrimae Rerum
Grey Havens

Sep 26 2012, 9:29pm

Post #15 of 66 (738 views)
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I was thinking about this the other day. [In reply to] Can't Post

The ruins we see might be from the "flashback" visit and might have been spruced up a bit by the time of and WC assault.

It may also be primarily underground (which wouldn't be a bad idea given Sauron's concealment there)

LR


Elenorflower
Gondor


Sep 26 2012, 9:36pm

Post #16 of 66 (707 views)
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But in the time of [In reply to] Can't Post

the Hobbit was Dol Guldur ruins? or a fortress?


DanielLB
Immortal


Sep 26 2012, 9:39pm

Post #17 of 66 (703 views)
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In terms of the book, it was a fortress - as far as I can remember, it only turned into ruins after the War of the Ring [In reply to] Can't Post

In the time of The Hobbit, it was Sauron's stronghold - he had dungeons, he was growing in strength, it was guarded by Ringwraiths.

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Lacrimae Rerum
Grey Havens

Sep 26 2012, 9:48pm

Post #18 of 66 (683 views)
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Although a ruined fortress could still be referred to as a fortress. [In reply to] Can't Post

 


DanielLB
Immortal


Sep 26 2012, 9:49pm

Post #19 of 66 (675 views)
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Yup, that's right. [In reply to] Can't Post

But Tolkien wasn't one for leaving out details. Massive difference between "fortress" and "ruined fortress".

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Shelob'sAppetite
Valinor

Sep 26 2012, 9:53pm

Post #20 of 66 (691 views)
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He left out plenty of descriptive details [In reply to] Can't Post

In the Hobbit.

I mean, all we know about most of the dwarves is the color of their hoods and beards!


Elenorflower
Gondor


Sep 26 2012, 9:55pm

Post #21 of 66 (668 views)
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If indeed [In reply to] Can't Post

the WC defeat the Necromancer in Dol Guldur and they show a battle, and they show Sauron defeated and on the run,will that make Sauron seem less than omnipotent to the audience, surely they the film makers wont want him to seem too weak, as it will look a bit odd watching LOTR to suddenly find him super powerful?


DanielLB
Immortal


Sep 26 2012, 9:57pm

Post #22 of 66 (680 views)
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Not in The Hobbit ... [In reply to] Can't Post

But it never crops up in The Lord of the Rings, it's appendices, or after a quick glimpse, HoME?

If it was that important that it was either a "fortress" or a "ruined fortress" would Tolkien not have noted it somewhere?

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Snaga
Lorien


Sep 26 2012, 9:58pm

Post #23 of 66 (680 views)
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I would assume it is still intact during the Quest of Erebor [In reply to] Can't Post

From your excerpt of the appendices in your original post I am making the assumption that in talking about the "...fall of the dark tower" and the "...passing of Sauron", this particular entry is referring to the events which culminatted in the War of the Ring. I'm not getting enough context from it to place it anywhere else in the timeline. (I'm away from home and don't have my books with me at the moment)

If that is the case, then I am assuming that even though Sauron was pushed out of Dol Guldur during the time of the Quest of Erebor they didn't raze it or totally occupy it. So maybe the Lorien elves went in and destroyed it at the end of the War of the Ring.

Kind of suprising that they had the forces available, as everyone knows they were way down in Rohan recovering from the Battle of Helms Deep.. Pirate

"Alas for Boromir! It was too sore a trial!"

-Faramir


DanielLB
Immortal


Sep 26 2012, 9:59pm

Post #24 of 66 (685 views)
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Superpowerful? [In reply to] Can't Post

The films (in my opinion) don't show him as superpowerful at all ... a floating eyeball with incompetent wraiths and orcs? Exactly the same conditions in Dol Guldur, I imagine.

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Lacrimae Rerum
Grey Havens

Sep 26 2012, 10:05pm

Post #25 of 66 (661 views)
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Although actually now that I come to look for it [In reply to] Can't Post

I can't find the reference to "fortress". I've got "hold" "dwelling" "stronghold" "tower" but no "fortress"

LR

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