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The One Ring Forums: Tolkien Topics: Movie Discussion: The Hobbit:
Ughhh, I can't believe I'm about to bring up the lighting issue again
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redgiraffe
Rohan

Sep 25 2012, 2:58pm

Post #1 of 55 (2737 views)
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Ughhh, I can't believe I'm about to bring up the lighting issue again Can't Post

If this thread needs to be deleted that's fine and I apologize if it may be a repeat. But I just came across a revelation.

The first time I watched the trailer on my desktop; with a really nice screen that probably has a great amount of lighting. And this is mainly where my complaints about the lighting comes from and how certain things like the CGI and the orcs and goblin town look too bright.

However, I just watched the trailer from thehobbit.com on my asus netbook, and I must say I was blown away by the difference in the lighting. It was significantly darker (not too dark) and seemed to blend everything quite nicely. The CGI looked much better. Goblin town doesn't look completely lit the whole way down. The shot below Bilbo looking up in Rivendel looked much better as the sky and environment seemed to blend much better. All of these are good improvements in my opinion.

Has anyone else noticed a difference from computer to computer? Which one of these is the best representation of the actual footage? Honestly, I hope it's the darker version that is a better representation as I think everything blended better.

So try it out, and discuss with me please. It's definitely kind of changed my whole opinion of the second trailer.

-Sir are you classified as human
-Negative, I am a meat-popsicle


lidlessEye
Rivendell

Sep 25 2012, 3:06pm

Post #2 of 55 (1727 views)
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it all looks the same [In reply to] Can't Post

it all looks the same, no matter where i stream it
- ipad
- macbook
- tv

on all these devices it looks the same - artificial vieo-game-graphics!


Fardragon
Rohan

Sep 25 2012, 3:09pm

Post #3 of 55 (1704 views)
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It will depend on your monitor settings [In reply to] Can't Post

But should really be seen in 3D, where it looks very much darker.

A Far Dragon is the best kind...


Altaira
Superuser / Moderator


Sep 25 2012, 3:11pm

Post #4 of 55 (1715 views)
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Lol. I think you're spot on redgiraffe [In reply to] Can't Post

I definitely noticed a difference for the better between a laptop and streaming it on our big screen HDTV. But, probably the most encouraging thing is the difference I saw in the theater version (I saw it in 3-D, finally) - it was like day and night (pun intended). Laugh It wasn't just that it was darker, the lighting color grading overall was so noticeably better all I could think was 'WOW.'

The lightness of the trailer on my computer didn't bother me very much, but I'd definitely recommend seeing it in the theater if at all possible and, if not, trying to view it on different computers, or on your TV. It can really make a difference.


Koru: Maori symbol representing a fern frond as it opens. The koru reaches towards the light, striving for perfection, encouraging new, positive beginnings.



"Life can't be all work and no TORn" -- jflower

"I take a moment to fervently hope that the camaradarie and just plain old fun I found at TORn will never end" -- LOTR_nutcase





Carne
Tol Eressea

Sep 25 2012, 3:12pm

Post #5 of 55 (1666 views)
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Really? [In reply to] Can't Post

Do you know of any games with graphics comparable to the CGI in the trailer, because I sure don't. "Video game graphics" is always thrown around when there really are no games with graphics that good (nor will there be for many, many years). Same was said about WETA Digital's work on Avatar when the first trailer was released. Look at the final product: http://www.hdwallpapers.in/...r_in_avatar-wide.jpg

People need to remember that everything is still being worked on. I talked to someone who animated one of the shots seen in the trailer, and she said that it was submitted many weeks ago, and she's still working on it.

Edit:

And as Lightice mentions below me; the CGI is not worse, it's just the movie being much clearer and brighter compared to LOTR.


(This post was edited by Carne on Sep 25 2012, 3:16pm)


Lightice
Lorien

Sep 25 2012, 3:14pm

Post #6 of 55 (1720 views)
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It's been explained pretty thoroughly [In reply to] Can't Post

We were told in the very earliest developer diaries that they had to do the movie in much lighter tones than you would normally do, to compensate the inevitable darkening effect of the 3D glasses. In order to appear normal in the theatres, the movie has to look lighter on the screen. Not that I find it distracting even in this vanilla form; the exaggerated tones have something of a storybook feel to them.


DanielLB
Immortal


Sep 25 2012, 3:41pm

Post #7 of 55 (1580 views)
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It all looks the same to me! [In reply to] Can't Post

My computer is on it's last legs - I can't tell if the trailer is supposed to look the way it does, or not! Regardless, it looks great. But I'd say that anyway. Wink

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Fardragon
Rohan

Sep 25 2012, 3:45pm

Post #8 of 55 (1637 views)
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Or you could [In reply to] Can't Post

try adjusting your monitor settings. You guys do know how to do that?

A Far Dragon is the best kind...


DarkJackal
Rohan


Sep 25 2012, 3:57pm

Post #9 of 55 (1683 views)
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But wasn't the point at CinemaCon... [In reply to] Can't Post

...that everything would look lighter and clearer when theaters got the new projectors that would be able to show 48 FPS? Or have I missed something in all the discussion (which I stopped reading about a few months ago, sorry). Which means that the lighter CGI we see now won't be darkened and suddenly look better.

Unless it will actually be better, because they will make it fit better? I hope so.




The Hobbit Photo Gallery

(This post was edited by DarkJackal on Sep 25 2012, 3:59pm)


Estel78
Tol Eressea

Sep 25 2012, 5:11pm

Post #10 of 55 (1505 views)
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That doesn't make a lot of sense. [In reply to] Can't Post

It would be kind of stupid to brighten 3D as well as 2D prints, don't you think?


Kangi Ska
Half-elven


Sep 25 2012, 5:13pm

Post #11 of 55 (1478 views)
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Remember everyone gets to wear dark glasses, (at least for #-D) // [In reply to] Can't Post

 

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Estel78
Tol Eressea

Sep 25 2012, 5:14pm

Post #12 of 55 (1487 views)
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48fps supposedly helps with the light loss but doesn't eliminate it. // [In reply to] Can't Post

 


Faenoriel
Tol Eressea


Sep 25 2012, 5:36pm

Post #13 of 55 (1491 views)
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I like the storybook colours too! [In reply to] Can't Post

They suit the Hobbit.

But every word you say today
Gets twisted 'round some other way
And they'll hurt you if they think you've lied


There&ThereAgain
Rohan


Sep 25 2012, 5:50pm

Post #14 of 55 (1489 views)
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not final renders [In reply to] Can't Post

it's barely October yall, Weta still has another two months to finish everything.

"The world is indeed full of peril, and in it there are many dark places; but still there is much that is fair; and though in all lands love is now mingled with grief, it grows perhaps the greater."-J.R.R. Tolkien

"Thanks for the money!" -George Lucas


lidlessEye
Rivendell

Sep 25 2012, 6:33pm

Post #15 of 55 (1474 views)
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it looked [In reply to] Can't Post

...so much like world of warcraft.
and thanks you brought up avatar: most overrated movie of all time - i thought i was watching a video-game come to live (btw. it was my first 3d movie in a cinema as well)


(This post was edited by Silverlode on Sep 25 2012, 7:11pm)


Carne
Tol Eressea

Sep 25 2012, 6:36pm

Post #16 of 55 (1489 views)
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My point wasn't about whether or not Avatar is a good movie [In reply to] Can't Post

I gave you an example of WETA's top notch FX.

And no, nothing in The Hobbit trailer looks like World of Warcraft.


(This post was edited by Carne on Sep 25 2012, 6:39pm)


DanielLB
Immortal


Sep 25 2012, 6:37pm

Post #17 of 55 (1423 views)
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Any chance you could edit that f-bomb out? :-) / [In reply to] Can't Post

 

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Lightice
Lorien

Sep 25 2012, 6:42pm

Post #18 of 55 (1398 views)
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Not quite [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
...that everything would look lighter and clearer when theaters got the new projectors that would be able to show 48 FPS? Or have I missed something in all the discussion (which I stopped reading about a few months ago, sorry). Which means that the lighter CGI we see now won't be darkened and suddenly look better.

Unless it will actually be better, because they will make it fit better? I hope so.



The 48fps does nothing to the light-levels of the picture. It simply reduces motion blur massively, which is good, as the extra blurring has been a big problem with 3D movies so far.


DarkJackal
Rohan


Sep 25 2012, 6:45pm

Post #19 of 55 (1426 views)
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Do you have any examples [In reply to] Can't Post

Of images from the avatar trailer to compare here? I would love my fears to be eliminated completely. :)




The Hobbit Photo Gallery


Shelob'sAppetite
Valinor

Sep 25 2012, 6:47pm

Post #20 of 55 (1439 views)
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Are storybook illustrations usually brightly-colored? NT [In reply to] Can't Post

 


Estel78
Tol Eressea

Sep 25 2012, 6:51pm

Post #21 of 55 (1419 views)
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Not quite [In reply to] Can't Post

"we’ll have brighter light levels" - that's a quote from John Landau, producer of Avatar on 48 / 60 fps.

http://www.48fpsmovies.com/tag/high-frame-rates/


Snaga
Lorien


Sep 25 2012, 7:12pm

Post #22 of 55 (1521 views)
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I saw the trailer in the theater over the weekend [In reply to] Can't Post

In 3D. It looked really good to me. I also noticed a slight difference in lighting (better) than what it looked like on my Ipad. In the theater it seemed like the overall lighting and color saturation was close to the LOTR films.

"Alas for Boromir! It was too sore a trial!"

-Faramir


Lightice
Lorien

Sep 26 2012, 12:47am

Post #23 of 55 (1346 views)
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Still no dice [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
"we’ll have brighter light levels" - that's a quote from John Landau, producer of Avatar on 48 / 60 fps.

http://www.48fpsmovies.com/tag/high-frame-rates/


Higher framerate does not directly translate to any kind of colour choice. Filmmakers may choose to work with brighter colours, especially for 3D productions that benefit from it, but making a movie with higher framerate does nothing to prevent filmmakers from using a muted palette if that serves their purposes better.


Estel78
Tol Eressea

Sep 26 2012, 1:26am

Post #24 of 55 (1282 views)
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I'm confused [In reply to] Can't Post

What has the director's color choice to do with the topic at hand? It's about the picture being brighter, having more contrast, due to the projector throwing more light at the screen. To be honest, i dunno exactly how higher framerates achieve that, what's going on in a projector. It's what i'm reading from people in the know so i suppose there's some truth to it.


Olessan
Bree


Sep 26 2012, 3:03am

Post #25 of 55 (1234 views)
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Okay [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
Do you know of any games with graphics comparable to the CGI in the trailer, because I sure don't. "Video game graphics" is always thrown around when there really are no games with graphics that good (nor will there be for many, many years). Same was said about WETA Digital's work on Avatar when the first trailer was released. Look at the final product: http://www.hdwallpapers.in/walls/neytiri_beautiful_warrior_in_avatar-wide.jpg

People need to remember that everything is still being worked on. I talked to someone who animated one of the shots seen in the trailer, and she said that it was submitted many weeks ago, and she's still working on it.

Edit:

And as Lightice mentions below me; the CGI is not worse, it's just the movie being much clearer and brighter compared to LOTR.

Concerning the first line, you'd be comparing pre-rendered and real-time visuals. Everything in a movie is obviously pre-rendered, as the engine's already done all its work and the footage is complete; I can think of several games from the last few years that meet movie visuals, and in the case of some movies, the games are noticably better.
However, it's usually pretty close because CGI has plateaued out a bit over the last year or two. Most game comparisons will be done from in-engine/real-time cg, but to see the grunt you have to look at pre-rendered (and this is also the same type, lol).

This is from Beyond: Two Souls, which is from this year, to release next year. This is real-time.
This and this are from Metal Gear Solid: Ground Zeros, which is coming in 2013/14 period. Also real time, but please note that the quality of the video these were taken from wasn't 100% pure.
This one is from Agni's Philosophy, which is a real-time tech demo of an engine to be used in the next three to five years.
And finally, this one is pre-rendered from an engine from 2008, almost five years ago. Visuals have taken bounds since, though.

Some of them come extremely close, but haven't quite hit yet -- and considering that all but the last one are real-time and not pre-rendered like in all movies (I couldn't find good-quality screenshots from the other games I wanted to give as examples, notably a pre-rendered sequence from Dragon's Dogma), that's pretty damn good.

We can't expect games to hit the visual quality of such movies as Avatar for another few years, because Avatar (and now, it seems, The Hobbit, perhaps) was at the forefront of its technology, and cost massive amounts of money that if spent on the visual side of a game would balloon production costs so high it'd be ridiculous -- also note that movies are two to four hours long, while all the decent games are at least fifteen hours, and maintain a great visual quality despite being many times longer.

Also, that Avatar and The Hobbit both use full mocap (including facial), whilst most games don't. I'm pretty sure Beyond does, and L.A Noire (poor quality, sorry) from a year or two ago was the first game to use Avatar technology. Most games from 2007 onward have been running at 60fps, as well, vs movies who are only now with The Hobbit hitting 48fps.
So whilst I agree, it won't be 'many, many years'; it's more like two or three, especially since a new generation of consoles is going to arise by 2014.
------
Off the subject of the game visuals, now, haha.
I agree! Of course the trailers will look a little unpolished compared to the final product, but I can see how a lot of people would think otherwise. The finished product's likely going to look noticably better than what's seen in the trailer, which looks great as it is. :3
(Oops, this post got a bit long and off-topic. Sorry about that, haha.)


(This post was edited by Olessan on Sep 26 2012, 3:05am)

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