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Kangi Ska
Half-elven
Sep 24 2012, 3:21am
Post #151 of 255
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You must be a real Tolkien scholar. Have you written any good papers on the Professor and his creations?
Kangi Ska Resident Trickster & Wicked White Crebain
Life is an adventure, not a contest.
At night you can not tell if crows are black or white.
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Kangi Ska
Half-elven
Sep 24 2012, 3:24am
Post #152 of 255
(1891 views)
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A Boys Own storyis different than a Boys Club.//
[In reply to]
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Kangi Ska Resident Trickster & Wicked White Crebain
Life is an adventure, not a contest.
At night you can not tell if crows are black or white.
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JWPlatt
Grey Havens
Sep 24 2012, 3:29am
Post #153 of 255
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Philippa Boyens "Boys' Own" quote is from the recent Comic-Con. You can read the transcript right here on this website. I'm surprised no one has really looked yet. Or did I miss the post?
http://www.theonering.net/...hall-h-hobbitcon-qa/
Those who quote or think of Philippa using the word "club" or "boys only" do give it a misleading connotation. She used the phrase "Boys' Own Story." That phrase refers to a British magazine named Boys' Own Paper "for boys that was sold at the beginning of the 20th century and contained stories of people having dangerous and exciting experiences."
Here is Philippa's quote from the transcript in full context. I leave to others to read it and defend their own take on her words.
Julia: My name is Julia Weldon. My father is a huge Lord of the Rings enthusiast and he’s actually an Elven linguist. He worked on the original trilogy. So I grew up with The Hobbit. It was one of my bedtime stories when I was little, but I was very upset as a small child that there weren’t any female characters in it. So I made him change a bunch of them, as he read it. [laughter] I made him make Gandalf a woman. [laughter] And also I didn’t actually know that Smaug wasn’t a female dragon until like a year ago. My question is, “What kind of role does Galadriel play, and are there are any female characters you added?”
Peter Jackson: That’s a great question for Philippa.
Philippa Boyens: I, yeah, there are. Galadriel, as you all know, is the most powerful being in Middle Earth, at the time. And we wanted to go in there and tell that story. We worked with Cate. We talked to her about the role. She did a phenomenal job. I was… I had my total geek-out moment when she stepped up. And, the battle of Dol Guldur. Let me just say that. It’s extraordinary. So she immediately brings a very powerful feminine energy into the film, and one of the reasons… It’s interesting that you did that, because we did feel the weight of it being a “boys’ own” story. After a while, you’d feel the weight of it. And we did create a character. Her name’s Tauriel, who is an elf. Who is played magnificently by Evangeline Lilly...
Who you saw a little bit of. She’s our redhead. We created her for that reason. To bring that energy into the film, that feminine energy. We believe it’s completely within the spirit of Tolkien. You know, we tried really hard, and she wanted that more than anything, herself. She didn’t want it to be a ploy. We wanted her to sit in the world, and I think you guys are going to fall in love with her.
(This post was edited by JWPlatt on Sep 24 2012, 3:35am)
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Sinister71
Tol Eressea
Sep 24 2012, 3:36am
Post #154 of 255
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a female character because there were none. or that 100% of the Tolkien written character were men I take it either way i guess 
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Shelob'sAppetite
Valinor
Sep 24 2012, 3:58am
Post #155 of 255
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The quote from PB that seems to support sinister's point is:
We created her for that reason. To bring that energy into the film, that feminine energy.
Object to that or not, it seems to be at least a major reason for her inclusion.
Personally, I am more annoyed that Legolas is back. 
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Solicitr
Gondor
Sep 24 2012, 4:00am
Post #156 of 255
(1867 views)
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...for the next or next but one issue of Tolkien Studies
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Altaira
Superuser
Sep 24 2012, 4:01am
Post #157 of 255
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That was in reaction to a specific adaptation, not the Peter Jackson version, and not The Hobbit in any version
The adaptation Tolkien was reacting to in that letter was one that squeezed everything into one movie. To accomplish that, for example, it cut out the entire journey from Rivendell to Lorien and had the eagles fly the Fellowship there instead. So, yes, any comments quoted from that letter *have* to be taken in context.
(and, no, the entirety of Letter #210 cannot be quoted here. Phibbus' points, and a few quotes here and there will have to suffice).
Koru: Maori symbol representing a fern frond as it opens. The koru reaches towards the light, striving for perfection, encouraging new, positive beginnings.
"Life can't be all work and no TORn" -- jflower
"I take a moment to fervently hope that the camaradarie and just plain old fun I found at TORn will never end" -- LOTR_nutcase
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Solicitr
Gondor
Sep 24 2012, 4:04am
Post #158 of 255
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"Galadriel, as you all know, is the most powerful being in Middle Earth, at the time."
No, that would be Sauron. Remember him?
Also three to five Istari, and Glorfindel. But at least Philippa got it within eight. Close enough for fan-fic.
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Phibbus
Rohan
Sep 24 2012, 4:16am
Post #159 of 255
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However, he also generalizes often enough in the letter that we can infer more broadly his thoughts on how adaptation ought to be handled. To whit: statements such as "[…] the failure of poor films is often precisely in exaggeration, and the intrusion of unwarranted matter owing to not perceiving where the core of the original lies," are not directed solely at Zimmerman's treatment. Also, in instances such as the Weathertop scene, where Jackson's is significantly similar in specifics to those to which Tolkien was objecting, we can safely assume that he would have likewise objected to either.
Man is but an ass if he go about to expound this dream.
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Altaira
Superuser
Sep 24 2012, 4:23am
Post #160 of 255
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I don't like the character in general if they are doing anything more than getting drunk in the cellar and getting pick pocketed by Bilbo and playing a good background character no matter what gender.
She isn't just replacing that one character, she represents a conglomeration of many similar minor, or even nameless characters. She represents the 'idea' of an Elven guard of Thranduil's. Since we know he had guards, how can one of them having a name and a few lines possibly be offensive?
Totally aside from that point which, again, is one that is often necessary and even advantageous in a screenplay, the character that "didn't do anything more than get drunk in the cellar and get pick-pocketed by Bilbo" is right out of the book! Not to beat a dead horse and entice you into repeating another list of changes you don't like, but why would you *not* have that character, or a representative of that character, in the movie? I'm getting very confused as to your definitions of what's okay to put in and what's okay to leave out, considering some of what you seem to object to is stuff that's in the book, albiet in the backgroud, yet still vital to the story.
Koru: Maori symbol representing a fern frond as it opens. The koru reaches towards the light, striving for perfection, encouraging new, positive beginnings.
"Life can't be all work and no TORn" -- jflower
"I take a moment to fervently hope that the camaradarie and just plain old fun I found at TORn will never end" -- LOTR_nutcase
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Silverlode
Forum Admin
/ Moderator
Sep 24 2012, 4:28am
Post #161 of 255
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Weekly threads have a way of starting themselves organically. Many people have tried to create one and failed.
For instance, "What movies have you watched" became a weekly thread because prior to that, we would have multiple individuals posting their movie reviews or book reviews on any given week, and rather than have them all separate we would, per board guidelines, ask them to post in the same thread if one was already on the board. A number of people expressed their wish for a weekly thread on a regular day as they really enjoyed reading others' reviews, and the suggestion won widespread approval. The "What have you been reading" thread was a natural extension. Both threads have continued to be very popular. Also, the movie/book threads are topics with constant new information. People are reading different books and different movies every week so there is endless variety. The same is true of other regular threads. TIME presents a different section of the books each day. SCOD discusses a different screen cap. The Chapter discussions in the RR discuss a chapter a week. The Walk to Rivendell thread is a group effort, with new totals to report each week.
We do not have any weekly threads dedicated to one static topic. To have a weekly thread dedicated to the Green Tint would be like having a weekly thread dedicated to movie-dwarf beard length. Once you've said your say on it, pro or con, you get into repetition. The issue does not change, and the fact that some people still don't like it and never will does not equate to new news. If there were a change in the topic - for instance, if a new edition were to come out without the tint, or a new picture of a dwarf with a much longer beard than before, that would naturally spark new posts because it would be news, but it wouldn't justify a weekly thread. Movie-Dwarf beards and the green tint are subjects too limited in scope to sustain a varied enough conversation over a long period of time.
We do not approve weekly/scheduled threads that do not have a) wide appeal and b) a broad enough subject base to sustain new and different conversations each week. In addition, some time back we had to ask people to stop trying to turn every good discussion into a scheduled weekly one, as it was crowding the boards, discouraging spontaneous discussion, and people were getting too territorial over "their" topics. Nor are they ever contentious topics to begin with - a regular thread must be fun, not argumentative. There is plenty of disagreement to go around without scheduling it! Weekly threads are only continued as long as they sustain a general appeal and are adding to the enjoyment of the boards for a significant number of people.
Actually, it's pretty rare to find a topic which sustains a weekly thread for a long time. They run for a while and then fade away, to be replaced by others. SAST, GOLD Nuggets, and many others I can't recall the names of have come and gone over the years. Fiesta is the longest-standing, and still by far the most popular!
Silverlode
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Altaira
Superuser
Sep 24 2012, 4:57am
Post #162 of 255
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we can safely assume anything on behalf of anyone, really, especially not a non-living author. We can project our own opinions onto what Tolkien said, but we can't draw any conclusions other than what we *think* he might have thought about something. His comments in that letter may appear to be general in places, yet they were still motivated by his being upset by that one adaptation. Your example of Weathertop is probably as close as we can get but, to infer anything out of the context of that letter that wasn't almost identical, and apply it to an adaptation he never saw, is nothing but our own opinion - not his.
Koru: Maori symbol representing a fern frond as it opens. The koru reaches towards the light, striving for perfection, encouraging new, positive beginnings.
"Life can't be all work and no TORn" -- jflower
"I take a moment to fervently hope that the camaradarie and just plain old fun I found at TORn will never end" -- LOTR_nutcase
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JWPlatt
Grey Havens
Sep 24 2012, 4:59am
Post #163 of 255
(1861 views)
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So variety and enjoyment make the difference. I understand. A bit of history and an entertaining post. Thanks.
I find the SCOD and chapter discussions to be of the most value, especially the chapter discussions because they usually look like a real literary course and, when I've peeked in, involved a lot of up-front preparation by the OP.
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Phibbus
Rohan
Sep 24 2012, 5:22am
Post #164 of 255
(1857 views)
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True, I am making an assertion, and that's the nature of the animal. When an author is deceased, you assess the evidence that you've got and state your position. True, we are looking at a specific response here, one affected adversely by a poor reaction. However, when the comments made in this letter are taken in the context his responses to other adaptations, including the first BBC radio dramatization, Humphrey Carpenter's first musical adaptation, and the Dramatic Publishing Company's amateur stage adaptation, a certain consistency begins to emerge that we may take as, at least, insightful.
In the absence of an open essay entitled, "How I'd Like My Work to Be Adapted," if we want to form an idea of what Tolkien's opinions may have been, we've got to look at what he actually wrote. To say we should not form a hypothesis at all is a bit thwarting of the spirit of learning.
Man is but an ass if he go about to expound this dream.
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Solicitr
Gondor
Sep 24 2012, 5:29am
Post #165 of 255
(1861 views)
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It's difficult to imagine that Tolkien, having castigated Zimmerman's version of Weathertop, would then turn around and endorse PJ's nearly identical version of Weathertop.
I'd also have to say that Christopher Tolkien's view of what his father would have thought has to be given considerable weight- who else on earth more?
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Silverlode
Forum Admin
/ Moderator
Sep 24 2012, 6:23am
Post #166 of 255
(1834 views)
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Tolkien also said that the assertion that there were no women in his books was untrue. By this we must assume that he envisioned there being plenty of women about even if he did not always name them or make a point of saying that they were there.
I've been saying for a long time, and still think, that Tauriel is more or less equivalent to Lurtz; an invented character who fills a role that was likely to have existed even if not specifically mentioned. In one case, an Uruk-Hai captain, in the other an Elven guard. People were similarly worried when Lurtz was named in the run-up to FOTR, but few people disliked him in the actual movie, aside from those few who simply didn't like the general Uruk-hai design or thought that the name was not authentic-sounding - but since it wasn't ever used in the movie itself, that became a non-issue.
As long as Tauriel's reputed love story doesn't become a thing, I think she might be equally inoffensive in the final product.
Silverlode
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JWPlatt
Grey Havens
Sep 24 2012, 6:43am
Post #167 of 255
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The point should be made that to refute your argument is equally an assertion that it is not true.
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macfalk
Valinor
Sep 24 2012, 8:01am
Post #168 of 255
(1824 views)
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Could you then explain what you mean with actual and non-actual Tolkien fans? And antidote for those who liked the trailer?
Pardon me, but your approach to Tolkien fandom strikes me as a good example of elitism.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elitism
The greatest adventure is what lies ahead.
(This post was edited by macfalk on Sep 24 2012, 8:01am)
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geordie
Tol Eressea
Sep 24 2012, 8:41am
Post #169 of 255
(1818 views)
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geordie
Tol Eressea
Sep 24 2012, 8:45am
Post #170 of 255
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geordie
Tol Eressea
Sep 24 2012, 8:52am
Post #171 of 255
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"But fear no more! I would not take this thing, if it lay by the highway. Not were Minas Tirith falling in ruin and I alone could save her, so, using the weapon of the Dark Lord for her good and my glory. No, I do not wish for such triumphs, Frodo son of Drogo."
are truly great, and a mark of the man as Tolkien wrote him. Boyens wrote this off; in her opinion these words invalidated the power of the Ring.
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geordie
Tol Eressea
Sep 24 2012, 8:56am
Post #172 of 255
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geordie
Tol Eressea
Sep 24 2012, 9:05am
Post #173 of 255
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Elessar
Valinor
Sep 24 2012, 1:03pm
Post #175 of 255
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They do mark him as a great man but they also take away some of the power the ring is supposed to have over men.
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