Our Sponsor Sideshow Collectibles Send us News
Lord of the Rings Tolkien
Search Tolkien
Lord of The RingsTheOneRing.net - Forged By And For Fans Of JRR Tolkien
Lord of The Rings Serving Middle-Earth Since The First Age

Lord of the Rings Movie News - J.R.R. Tolkien
Do you enjoy the 100% volunteer, not for profit services of TheOneRing.net?
Consider a donation!

  Main Index   Search Posts   Who's Online   Log in
The One Ring Forums: Tolkien Topics: Movie Discussion: The Hobbit:
The Clouds Burst *Spoilers
First page Previous page 1 2 Next page Last page  View All

There&ThereAgain
Rohan


Sep 24 2012, 3:07am

Post #1 of 32 (1894 views)
Shortcut
The Clouds Burst *Spoilers Can't Post

I've been rereading The Hobbit and wow, what a chapter!

Tolkien is noted to spend as little time as possible on events that one might conceive to spend time on when constructing drama. In “The Clouds Burst,” Thorin learns of Bilbo’s traitorous act of handing over the prized Arkenstone, leaves him for dead, Gandalf, Thranduil and Bard resolve to take care of the Dwarves, evil wargs and goblins from the North surprise attack everyone, Elves, Men and Dwarves decide to team up together, the Battle of the Five Armies ensues, Eagles come to save the day, and finally Bilbo gets knocked out with a rock.

PHEW, that’s a lot of narrative material that just takes place in a mere handful of pages in The Hobbit. I can imagine quite easily, why Peter Jackson wanted to take more time with these events. Establishing a deep friendship between Bilbo and the dwarves can only feel tragic upon the rending of their relationship when Thorin casts him out. How do the other dwarves feel about this? I hope it’s heartbreaking.

There and Back Again is going to be quite a ride!

"The world is indeed full of peril, and in it there are many dark places; but still there is much that is fair; and though in all lands love is now mingled with grief, it grows perhaps the greater."-J.R.R. Tolkien

"Thanks for the money!" -George Lucas


Elutherian
Rohan


Sep 24 2012, 3:30am

Post #2 of 32 (754 views)
Shortcut
Agreed 100% [In reply to] Can't Post

The moment of betrayal between Thorin and Bilbo will likely be the most heartbreaking scene since Gandalf's fall in FOTR.... another great rendition by Jackson.

The Grey Pilgrim, they once called me. Three hundred lives of men I walked this earth, and now I have no time...


Mooseboy018
Gondor


Sep 24 2012, 6:40am

Post #3 of 32 (644 views)
Shortcut
one of my favorites [In reply to] Can't Post

That's one of my favorite scenes Tolkien ever wrote. I've been praying to see it on screen since I first read the book twelve years ago.


macfalk
Valinor


Sep 24 2012, 7:28am

Post #4 of 32 (602 views)
Shortcut
Fully agreed. [In reply to] Can't Post

I hope PJ also manages to explain why Thorin casts Bilbo out, even though Bilbo did the right thing... he sort of betrayed the company he endured so much with for almost a good year. Bilbo did a valiant deed, at the cost of his friendship with Thorin.

I love this chapter, because I can see it from both Bilbo's and Thorin's angles, and sympathize with them both.



The greatest adventure is what lies ahead.


Fardragon
Rohan

Sep 24 2012, 7:35am

Post #5 of 32 (608 views)
Shortcut
It could go to far the other way [In reply to] Can't Post

and make Thorin look too villainous.

But PJ handled Boromir very well, so I have high hopes.

A Far Dragon is the best kind...


Rolfina
Rivendell

Sep 24 2012, 7:47am

Post #6 of 32 (574 views)
Shortcut
Me too [In reply to] Can't Post

it is going to be gut wrenching.


DanielLB
Immortal


Sep 24 2012, 9:21am

Post #7 of 32 (574 views)
Shortcut
This is why TABA excites me more than ROTK ever did! / [In reply to] Can't Post

 


Want Hobbit Movie News? Hobbit Headlines of the Week!



macfalk
Valinor


Sep 24 2012, 9:38am

Post #8 of 32 (545 views)
Shortcut
Me too. [In reply to] Can't Post

The ending of The Hobbit is so much more emotionally powerful than Return of the King. In The Hobbit, many of our heroes die, while all of them survives the process in ROTK. And of course Bilbo > Frodo



The greatest adventure is what lies ahead.


Valandil ed Imladris
Lorien


Sep 24 2012, 9:59am

Post #9 of 32 (540 views)
Shortcut
How do you think will PJ handle the end of the Hobbit? [In reply to] Can't Post

Will there be a long way back home .. resting at rivendell again?


Silverlode
Forum Admin / Moderator


Sep 24 2012, 10:18am

Post #10 of 32 (537 views)
Shortcut
Well, we heard that [In reply to] Can't Post

the Bag End auction was shot. And we know that the Hobbit version of Sting does not have the runes inscribed that the LOTR version does. So my guess is that we will get a brief bit in Rivendell to get Sting inscribed, but that the travel time will be compressed and we'll hurry back to the Shire to find Bilbo's stuff all over the Party field (because there isn't much room on the Bag End doorstep in the movie), similar to the way that ROTK skimmed over the return journey and concentrated its last scenes in the Shire to move on to the Grey Havens.

Silverlode



Don't have a Hobbit Day footer? Want one? Click here!



xxxyyy
Rohan

Sep 24 2012, 10:22am

Post #11 of 32 (532 views)
Shortcut
Wow! It's incredible how much I disagree with this one. [In reply to] Can't Post

There are worst things than death.
Dying is the natural resolution of life, it's "a gift".
Losing everything and been dead inside while been still alive is worst, IMO. That's why LOTR (ROTK) is little bit better than TH (TABA), and with a little I mean a lot.
That's why I'm so happy PJ is expanding so much the story.
As a matter of fact, I don't like the Hobbit at all, it's too simple/simplistic, not a flaw, in general, but, most important, too similar to LOTR, a dumbed down version of it.
That's why I'm SO happy PJ is expanding this much the story.

http://energyfromthorium.com/


macfalk
Valinor


Sep 24 2012, 10:33am

Post #12 of 32 (504 views)
Shortcut
Too similar to LOTR? [In reply to] Can't Post

Actually it's the other way around - LOTR is too similar to TH, if so. LOTR is a sequel to TH that came out 15 years later.



The greatest adventure is what lies ahead.


stoutfiles
Rohan

Sep 24 2012, 12:37pm

Post #13 of 32 (490 views)
Shortcut
It would be heartbreaking... [In reply to] Can't Post

If Thorin wasn't a huge jerk to Bilbo up until that point. Thorin makes Bilbo do practically everything along the journey, and still believes he's a "descendant of rats". When people get angry, they rarely make things up; they just say what they they've always believed but wouldn't normally say outloud.

The end was sad only because he apologized, but he was an angry, bitter person and I never connected with him at all.


xxxyyy
Rohan

Sep 24 2012, 2:02pm

Post #14 of 32 (416 views)
Shortcut
Ok: LOTR = an improved version of the Hobbit. [In reply to] Can't Post

My point does not change, from whichever angle you see it.
The Hobbit has it merits... as a LOTR draft.
Sorry to say that, but Tolkien himself wanted to modify it, to make it more consistent in his world. The only thing he did, and I'm extremely happy about that, was fixing some stuff in LOTR appendices.
I guess we could say, as someone here has said before (and I totally agree), PJ is finishing what Tolkien could not finish.

http://energyfromthorium.com/


There&ThereAgain
Rohan


Sep 24 2012, 3:42pm

Post #15 of 32 (370 views)
Shortcut
you could see it like that [In reply to] Can't Post

and although I am already on the PJ train and am embracing his version of Middle-Earth, the reason why Tolkien didn't make an "epic" version of The Hobbit is because it would have destroyed the charm and whimsy of the original. Just because something "appears" more simple than something else doesn't make it so.

I'm happy to get both for what it's worth, but The Hobbit is just as great if not more enjoyable and heartwarming than Tolkien's epic trilogy.

I think we are so just so lucky to have this many opportunities to explore Middle-Earth. Heart

"The world is indeed full of peril, and in it there are many dark places; but still there is much that is fair; and though in all lands love is now mingled with grief, it grows perhaps the greater."-J.R.R. Tolkien

"Thanks for the money!" -George Lucas


macfalk
Valinor


Sep 24 2012, 4:59pm

Post #16 of 32 (326 views)
Shortcut
Couldn't disagree more. [In reply to] Can't Post

For me,LOTR is the very opposite of an "improved verision of The Hobbit". For me, it is actually a lesser verision. Less is more!



The greatest adventure is what lies ahead.


imin
Valinor


Sep 24 2012, 5:09pm

Post #17 of 32 (323 views)
Shortcut
Everyone is different [In reply to] Can't Post

For some less is more (i am usually in this group, especially when it comes to films), for others more is more.

I think its great there are loads and loads of people who prefer the hobbit over the lord of the rings, it shows both are (in my mind) masterpieces which have stood the test of time.

In this case i am in the more is more group but i still love the hobbit and its great to see you like it so much.


There&ThereAgain
Rohan


Sep 24 2012, 5:11pm

Post #18 of 32 (317 views)
Shortcut
in many ways [In reply to] Can't Post

LOTR is more of a history book than an actual "story" in the traditional sense. Tolkien was really an unconventional writer by many standards and I love that LOTR can be this tome, a peak into the past and get a sense of a certain period, history, culture, etc.

The Hobbit is more like a bedtime adventure told by the coolest grandfather ever!

"The world is indeed full of peril, and in it there are many dark places; but still there is much that is fair; and though in all lands love is now mingled with grief, it grows perhaps the greater."-J.R.R. Tolkien

"Thanks for the money!" -George Lucas


Hanzkaz
Rohan

Sep 24 2012, 5:41pm

Post #19 of 32 (313 views)
Shortcut
I suspect that Tolkien was somewhat torn - [In reply to] Can't Post


Quote
the reason why Tolkien didn't make an "epic" version of The Hobbit is because it would have destroyed the charm and whimsy of the original.


He wanted a version of the Hobbit with stronger connections to his later books but he didn't want to lose the charm of the original. In the end he settled for a just slightly altered version of what already existed.

If Tolkien had written the Lord of the Rings first and the Hobbit after, I imagine the latter would have had a closer resemblance to PJ's current trilogy of movies.


Or it might have become the Hobbittillion.


(This post was edited by Hanzkaz on Sep 24 2012, 5:45pm)


Ardamírë
Valinor


Sep 24 2012, 9:04pm

Post #20 of 32 (235 views)
Shortcut
Hobbittillion :-) [In reply to] Can't Post

I love it. I think I shall start calling the hobbit movies this! Smile

"...and his first memory of Middle-earth was the green stone above her breast as she sang above his cradle while Gondolin was still in flower." -Unfinished Tales


Reptile
Rivendell


Sep 25 2012, 1:30am

Post #21 of 32 (201 views)
Shortcut
I lost a lot of respect for Thorin on this occasion [In reply to] Can't Post

This part was stunning to me in its unfairness. I had seen Thorin as a stern, but fair-minded individual. His rejection of the offer from Bilbo to give his share in exchange for peace, or at least an "equitable" distribution of the spoils didn't make a lot of sense to me. In one sense, the burgling of the arkenstone was unnecessary, since all the arkenstone did was stand against Bilbo's share. He might have just stood up and announced that he would give his share to the outsiders, and what would Thorin have had to say about that--unless he intended to cheat Bilbo out of his share, which I doubt.

I think the real problem here for Thorin is that somebody else has the arkenstone; he goes into a rage and can't get over it. I wonder how it would have played if Bilbo hadn't used the arkenstone as the mcguffin in this scene. Would Thorin have agreed to let Bilbo give over his share?

It sort of doesn't make sense for Thorin to begrudge Bilbo his share to distribute as he liked, but then I can never figure out why the dwarves didn't develop some sort of plan to ambush the dragon on his reentry into the treasure chamber, after his thundering attack on the mountainside.

"If you listen closely, you can hear the gods laughing."


Shelob'sAppetite
Valinor

Sep 25 2012, 1:37am

Post #22 of 32 (184 views)
Shortcut
Simple [In reply to] Can't Post

The Arkenstone wasn't just any treasure, and it certainly wasn't Bilbo's to give (according to Thorin).

It was a very special item that was explicitly tied up with Thorin's birthright. It was a matter of extreme pride, to say the least.

Bilbo taking it, and then handing it over to those Thorin had deemed his enemies, was not only a breach of trust, but a severe blow against Thorin's pride.

I can't imagine any more natural reaction from Thorin.


Reptile
Rivendell


Sep 25 2012, 2:14am

Post #23 of 32 (168 views)
Shortcut
Simple up to a point [In reply to] Can't Post

Yes, his rage is easy to understand, but even after they have agreement to trade the arkenstone for a fourteenth share of the treasure, why does Thorin try to figure out a way to regain the arkenstone and still keep all the treasure. Is he so outraged at Bilbo that he decides not to stand by their contract? That sounds pretty outrageous. Not to mention he's turning his back on Bilbo after getting them out of a number of tight situations. Can he really just ignore all the good that Bilbo has done for them and the fact that Bilbo's offer ti forfeit his share will save them from having a big battle with the lakemen and the elves. Note also, that when the lakemen show up to turn over the arkenstone, Thorin has not made any effort to come up with the promised payment. He's trying to work an angle where he gets the treasure and the arkenstone, too, not very kingly. His apology at the end is kind of weak compared to his denouncement of Bilbo and his attempt to go back on the deal they made in the beginning.

"If you listen closely, you can hear the gods laughing."


Shelob'sAppetite
Valinor

Sep 25 2012, 5:49am

Post #24 of 32 (152 views)
Shortcut
Pride and greed gets the better of him [In reply to] Can't Post

That's a core aspect of the Hobbit as a story. Humility (Bilbo) vs. pride (Thorin).

You say it is not 'kingly,' and you might be right if you were talking about a 'virtuous' king, or the ideal 'Christian' king.

But Thorin behaves quite consistently with the heroic ethos of pagan Northern Europe. In that context, he is simply claiming what's his, and to hell with etiquette and contracts. Those are for a prosaic age and people, not a poet warrior like Thorin.

But, because of Bilbo's influence, Thorin realizes the folly of this worldview on his deathbed. Humility, modesty, mercy and the practical, in effect "win" over pride, greed, vengeance and the foolhardy idealism of Thorin.

Though Bilbo goes home intact, some of the poetry and fire of the ancient world remains within him. He has become the perfect "blended type," with Took and Baggins now on a more balanced footing. Tolkien, really.


Solicitr
Lorien

Sep 25 2012, 2:26pm

Post #25 of 32 (102 views)
Shortcut
I would point out though [In reply to] Can't Post

that there was nothing secret about Thorin's claimed ownership of the Arkenstone, independent of any contract or shares: "That stone of all the treasure I name unto myself, and I will be avenged on anyone who finds it and witholds it."

Me, I'd just as soon try to keep a Silmaril from the sons of Feanor....

Now, the lawyers will immediately observe that Thorin stakes the above claim after Bilbo had already pocketed the Arkenstone and so was moot; and the other lawyers would chime in that Bilbo was not entitled to self-help prior an equitable division of Smaug's Hoard by and in the presence of all parties signatory to the contract. Then the first lawyers will point out that no procedure for distribution was to be found within the four corners of the document and start serving threatening writs and preparing briefs, and then the other lawyers, (these being dwarves), will pull out their axes and start bashing people.

Suffice it to say, Bilbo had a thin legal argument, even if based on something like a technicality (andit's entirely possible the Arkenstone was worth more than Bilbo's 1/14 share); and Thorin may have been (just barely) in the legal wrong but most would think him in the moral right - especially since from the perspective of equity Bilbo didn't exactly have clean hands, behaving in a secretive and borderline dishonest way- even Tolkien's child audience would have appreciated that the *right* thing for Bilbo to have done was declare the Arkenstone openly to his partners from the start, not hide it from them in a manner that has a faint odor of embezzlement.

NONETHELESS- Thorin is indeed a Dwarf of honor, even though his honor is outraged, and it must be remembered that even in his wrath he nonetheless honors the contract and counts the Arkenstone as, or exchangeable for, Bilbo's one-fourteenth share. He still agrees to pay up.

First page Previous page 1 2 Next page Last page  View All
 
 

Search for (options) Powered by Gossamer Forum v.1.2.3

home | advertising | contact us | back to top | search news | join list | Content Rating

This site is maintained and updated by fans of The Lord of the Rings, and is in no way affiliated with Tolkien Enterprises or the Tolkien Estate. We in no way claim the artwork displayed to be our own. Copyrights and trademarks for the books, films, articles, and other promotional materials are held by their respective owners and their use is allowed under the fair use clause of the Copyright Law. Design and original photography however are copyright © 1999-2012 TheOneRing.net. Binary hosting provided by Nexcess.net

Do not follow this link, or your host will be blocked from this site. This is a spider trap.