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Saelind
Menegroth
Oct 30 2007, 1:33am
Post #1 of 47
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Chapter 2 The Shadow of the Past II
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Gandalf returns after a 9 year absence and almost 80 years after Bilbo set out on his ‘adventure”. Does the length of time that has elapsed between the main action in The Hobbit and the present in LOTR seem too long?
What follows is a long history lesson. Did this history bog you down at all when reading the book for the first time? How about during subsequent re-readings? For those of you who have read “The Silmarillion”, does this chapter fit in with the larger history of Middle-earth?
“’In Eregion long ago many Elven-rings were made, magic rings as you call them, and they were, of course, of various kinds; some more potent and some less. The lesser rings were only essays in the craft before it was full-grown, and to the Elven-smiths they were but trifles-yet still to my mind dangerous for mortals.” What sorts of powers would these “lesser” rings have? Why would the elves feel a need to make such things?
Gandalf continues:
“’But the Great Rings, the Rings of Power, they were perilous. A mortal, Frodo, who keeps on the great Rings, does not die, but he does not grow or obtain more life, he merely continues, until at last every minute is a weariness. And if he often uses the Ring to make himself invisible, he fades: he becomes in the end invisible permanently, and walk in the twilight under the eye of the dark power that rules the Rings. Yes, sooner or later-later if he is strong or well-meaning to begin with, but neither strength nor good purpose will last-sooner or later the dark power will devour him.’”
A twisted sort of immortality. I can see why the Rings would appeal to men envious of the immortal lives of the elves. Would the Dwarf Rings do the same thing to a man or a hobbit? Do you think Frodo noticed anything different about Bilbo over the years? And if he did, did he think it was due to the Ring?
Gandalf goes on to say that he became concerned about the Ring from the beginning of Bilbo’s possession. “’A shadow fell on my heart then, though I did not know yet what I feared…Clearly the ring had an unwholesome power that set to work on its keeper at once. That was the first real warning that I had that all was not well… ’” Why did it take Gandalf so long to figure out about the Ring?
“’…I could only watch and wait might perhaps have consulted Saruman the White but something always held me back.’” Were these shadows and promptings the Powers aka the Valar at work?
Frodo asks if Bilbo recovers from his exposure to the Ring in part, I suspect, to allay his own growing fears.
“’He felt better at once, ‘ said Gandalf. ‘But there is only one Power in this world that knows all about the Rigns and their effects; and as far as I know there is no Power in the world that knows all about hobbits. Among the Wise I am the only one that goes in for hobbit-lore; an obscure branch of knowledge, but full of surprises.’” Do you think this is a comment by Tolkien on his dying academic discipline of philology? What does this say about Gandalf as one of the Wise?
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Humbert
Lindon
Oct 30 2007, 3:11am
Post #2 of 47
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Gandalf returns after a 9 year absence and almost 80 years after Bilbo set out on his ‘adventure”. Does the length of time that has elapsed between the main action in The Hobbit and the present in LOTR seem too long?
It certainly is a long time, but the idea of course is that the shadow has taken time to grow.
Not only Gandalf is slow on the uptake when it comes to the Ring. Rumor of it has spread, but even Sauron takes time to make his move. His power grows - slowly - and no one is certain yet of the Ring's whereabouts.
Somehow it seems to add some realism to the story - a sense that forces are moving, forces so large that they take a very long time to build up momentum. But now, as the story begins in earnest, these slow-building forces become an avalanche.
What follows is a long history lesson. Did this history bog you down at all when reading the book for the first time? How about during subsequent re-readings? For those of you who have read “The Silmarillion”, does this chapter fit in with the larger history of Middle-earth?
I've never been bogged down here. The history we learn in this chapter is enthralling - full of secrets and dark magic, betrayal, murder. High events of long ago, as well as the petty murderous deed of one pathetic hobbit-cousin. Unlike the long-winded and dull lectures during the Council of Elrond, this chapter has never been a burden to me.
As for how well it relates to the Silmarillion, well Professor Tolkien went back and rewrote his old tales to make sure they matched, didn't he!
What sorts of powers would these “lesser” rings have? Why would the elves feel a need to make such things?
Why did Feanor create the Silmarils? Why did Aule create the Dwarves? Why did JRR Tolkien create The Lord of the Rings? The art of sub-creation is an end in itself. To use the abilities given us by the One to make our own art within the sub-structure of the reality that He has made, is fulfilling our nature that was made in His image.
If you could make rings that had magic powers, wouldn't you? 
I imagine the first attempts, the lesser rings, were capable of simple tricks. Perhaps invisibility, like Bilbo's (without the nastier side-effects, naturally), or perhaps simpler, and subtler. Conveying far-sightedness, perhaps, or wisdom. Enhanced strength, skill, beauty. Cooking ability.
Would the Dwarf Rings do the same thing to a man or a hobbit? Do you think Frodo noticed anything different about Bilbo over the years? And if he did, did he think it was due to the Ring?
On the first note, our recent discussion of the ring poem contained a certain amount of debate on the nature of the rings. Specifically, that they were not intended for "Three... Elven-kings under the sky, Seven... Dwarf-lords in their halls of stone, Nine... mortal men doomed to die." That is just how they were eventually distributed.
However, were they so given because of the nature of the individual rings? Gandalf here calls the Three rings "the fairest of them all". That clearly suggests that those rings were different from the others. (Were these made without Sauron's direct help, by Celebrimbor? I forget for the moment.) So are there inherent properties of the Seven that made them fit for the Dwarf Lords in their halls of stone? Or did they just end up there, with the rings themselves being indistinguishable otherwise from those given to mortal men?
I don't know, so it's difficult to say what effect the Seven would have on men, or hobbits.
I have no doubt that Frodo noticed that his "uncle" was different from other hobbits. But due to the ring? Surely not, as Bilbo had it long before Frodo was ever born - this was the only way Frodo had ever known Bilbo. The effects of the Ring on him were well established by the time he and Frodo were close.
(Besides, I'm not sure the Ring's effects were all that pronounced with Bilbo anyway.)
Frodo asks if Bilbo recovers from his exposure to the Ring in part, I suspect, to allay his own growing fears.
Undoubtedly, there is some of that mixed with genuine concern for Bilbo.
The apartment across the hall from mine recently burned up. That night, as I stood shoeless in the cold watching flames shoot out of that apartment window, I couldn't help but worry that my own apartment might catch fire. My concerned queries about the blaze were genuinely thoughtful of others' safety, but equally for my own comfort. Is that selfish? Probably. But we are quite capable of being selfish while equally being considerate of others' welfare.
Do you think this is a comment by Tolkien on his dying academic discipline of philology? What does this say about Gandalf as one of the Wise?
I doubt the reference is specifically to philology (although...) but clearly it plays on the Professor's own feelings on academia. The lesser respected areas that hold their own charms, clung to by people who cannot be understood by those without that love.
As for Gandalf, it is very telling that he is so concerned with a seemingly insignificant people who represent the "heart" of Middle-earth. Hobbits are quite literally the "little people" that history forgets. But history is all about, and for, them even when it has not recorded them.
Of the Istari, only Gandalf ultimately completed his mission as it was intended. And he did it because his heart was where it should have been - with the insignificant people, the common man, the actual population that makes up the world. Saruman was led astray by power, by thoughts of prominence and of prominent people. Radagast was distracted by the backdrop, the brushstrokes, the world in which the people live. And the Blue Wizards don't seem to have accomplished anything at all.
But Gandalf, Gandalf whose heart is with the people, he alone stayed true and was victorious. Hobbit-lore may or may not have ultimately been responsible for his success, but his interest is an indicator of the kind of man he is and why he won through in the end.
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FarFromHome
Doriath
Oct 30 2007, 11:20am
Post #3 of 47
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Does the length of time that has elapsed between the main action in The Hobbit and the present in LOTR seem too long?
No, it makes us understand that this is a different story, and that the story of The Hobbit is now History.
What follows is a long history lesson. Did this history bog you down at all when reading the book for the first time? How about during subsequent re-readings? For those of you who have read “The Silmarillion”, does this chapter fit in with the larger history of Middle-earth?
I don't recall being bogged down, but then I never worry too much about absorbing everything on a first read. I assume that the author will remind us of anything really important, and that I'll figure things out as I go along. So what I probably got the first time was mostly a sense of the depth of the history, without the details necessarily sinking in.
What sorts of powers would these “lesser” rings have? Why would the elves feel a need to make such things?
I imagine the Elves making rings that would channel the kinds of powers they already have. So I imagine rings that enhance the ability to read others' thoughts, make it easier to remain unseen (if not necessarily invisible), and increase physical or mental resilience. They might make them for the same reason they make elven cloaks - because they are both beautiful and useful.
Would the Dwarf Rings do the same thing to a man or a hobbit?
I got the impression that the great rings were not made with any particular race in mind. Or more accurately, I assume that the Elves who made them intended them for themselves. We see that things that are natural to the Elves have an extreme effect on other creatures, for example the way the Elves' singing makes hobbits sleep, but also allows them to recall with great accuracy what they heard in their sleep. Lembas and miruvor too seem to be particularly potent for other races. I imagine the great rings would also be like this - for other races they would be like a kind of overdose of something that would be powerful but natural and wholesome for the elves themselves. Maybe Sauron is a bit like a drug pusher, offering "prescription drugs" that were designed for benign purposes but that can be highly addictive if misused. He knows that the other races won't be able to give up these pleasurable rings once they have them, and will be in his power for ever.
Do you think Frodo noticed anything different about Bilbo over the years? And if he did, did he think it was due to the Ring?
Well, Bilbo is different, that's clear. I doubt whether Frodo ever thought Bilbo was anything other than eccentric, and I expect he thought that was mostly due to his adventure. Frodo must have shared a lot of Bilbo's odd habits anyway - they both loved walking in the wild, under the stars, and talking to Elves they met in the woods. That's quite enough to make them both seem "cracked" to everyone else, but for the two of them it was just the way they preferred to live. Even Bilbo never realized that he was being affected by the Ring, so I think it's unlikely that this thought ever crossed Frodo's mind.
Why did it take Gandalf so long to figure out about the Ring?
Because he just couldn't believe it, I guess. Sometimes things stare you in the face for a long time before you come to terms with them, because they seem so impossible at the time. I think I read something similar about 9/11 - there were reports that might have been enough to prevent the attacks, but those in the know just couldn't believe the threat was real - it was so enormous that it was unthinkable.
Were these shadows and promptings the Powers aka the Valar at work?
Yes and no. Everything good might be the Higher Powers, and everything bad might be the influence of Sauron or the Ring. Or they might be Fate, or Chance. Or just simple human impulses for good or ill.
"Among the Wise I am the only one that goes in for hobbit-lore; an obscure branch of knowledge, but full of surprises." Do you think this is a comment by Tolkien on his dying academic discipline of philology? What does this say about Gandalf as one of the Wise?
I get the impression that Tolkien knew from his philological studies just how easy it is for knowledge to be lost or ignored. The prestigious, the new and cool, gets lots of attention, but unglamorous subjects get dropped and forgotten. Hobbits aren't cool, and they certainly aren't prestigious, so most of the Wise overlook them completely. The Wise, like most of Tolkien's academic colleagues it seems, prefer sophisticated subjects to suit their perception of their own sophisticated tastes. Gandalf is a nerd - he loves the obscure for itself, and doesn't care whether he looks cool and sophisticated or not. Saruman especially is exactly the opposite, and taunts Gandalf about his foolishness, and his dress sense, more than once.
...and the sails were drawn up, and the wind blew,
and slowly the ship slipped away down the long grey firth;
and the light of the glass of Galadriel that Frodo bore
glimmered and was lost.
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Curious
Gondolin
Oct 30 2007, 12:01pm
Post #4 of 47
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“’In Eregion long ago many Elven-rings were made, magic rings as you call them, and they were, of course, of various kinds; some more potent and some less. The lesser rings were only essays in the craft before it was full-grown, and to the Elven-smiths they were but trifles-yet still to my mind dangerous for mortals.” What sorts of powers would these “lesser” rings have? Why would the elves feel a need to make such things?
Apparently there are lesser rings of invisibility, and that's what Gandalf thought Bilbo had for all these years. This is part of the somewhat-awkward explanation for why Gandalf did not recognize the importance of Bilbo's ring.
Gandalf goes on to say that he became concerned about the Ring from the beginning of Bilbo’s possession. “’A shadow fell on my heart then, though I did not know yet what I feared…Clearly the ring had an unwholesome power that set to work on its keeper at once. That was the first real warning that I had that all was not well… ’” Why did it take Gandalf so long to figure out about the Ring?
The explanation given is that Saruman had assured the White Council that the One Ring was lost forever, and that there are many lesser rings in the world that cause invisibility, so there was no reason to connect Bilbo's ring with the One Ring. I'm not sure I find that explanation plausible. I prefer to think that Gandalf like to wait for signs and omens before taking action. Although it seems as if much trouble would have been averted if Gandalf had looked for Gollum immediately, instead of waiting, perhaps it was all part of the Plan.
“’…I could only watch and wait might perhaps have consulted Saruman the White but something always held me back.’” Were these shadows and promptings the Powers aka the Valar at work?
See what I mean about signs and omens? Most of the time, Gandalf operates based on hunches and instinct rather than cleverness and deduction. He trusts his heart over his head. And yes, I believe these hunches are sent to Gandalf by the Higher Powers, including the Valar or Eru Himself.
Among the Wise I am the only one that goes in for hobbit-lore; an obscure branch of knowledge, but full of surprises.’” Do you think this is a comment by Tolkien on his dying academic discipline of philology? What does this say about Gandalf as one of the Wise?
I suppose there could be a connection between the Anglo-Saxon branch of philology and the study of hobbits. Both are obscure branches of knowledge. Both, I'm sure, are full of surprises. But Gandalf, unlike Tolkien, is an angelic being sent by the Valar, so his interest in hobbit-lore is full of portent. Apparently Gandalf thinks the hobbits have some role to play in the War against Sauron, as unlikely as that may seem. And note that he thought that well before Bilbo went on his adventure. It is Gandalf's ability to see the worth of hobbits that distinguishes him from Saruman, or even from the other great leaders of the Free Peoples of Middle-earth.
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a.s.
Doriath
Oct 30 2007, 12:06pm
Post #5 of 47
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Something Wicked This Way Comes
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Why did it take Gandalf so long to figure out about the Ring?
I think that's the essential question of this chapter, and I believe Gandalf "knew" a lot more a lot sooner than he lets on to Frodo.
In fact, soon we will see Frodo's harsh and almost disbelieving re-questioning of Gandalf on just this point: how much did you know, old man, and when did you know it? And Gandalf's testy answers.
Because Frodo can tell that Gandalf is dissembling.
Gandalf is an incarnate angel, a guardian of ME. He may not have been 100% sure that the Ring is THE One Ring. But he knows it has done harm to Bilbo and will do harm to Frodo. He also knows (better than anyone else inside the story) that there are Powers at work here, for good and evil, and that Frodo is literally meant to have this Ring. The Powers that have placed Frodo in this path are the same Powers under which Gandalf is at work. Gandalf stands in the place of a guardian angel, so well defined in the passage from Tolkien:
"I perceived or thought of the Light of God and in it suspended one small mote (or millions of motes to only one of which was my small mind directed), glittering white because of the individual ray from the Light which both held and lit it...And the ray was the Guardian Angel of the mote: not a thing interposed between God and the creature, but God's very attention itself, personified". (Letter 88)
That is Gandalf: God's very attention itself, personified. But unlike the angel in Tolkien's description, Gandalf has the supporting duty to ALL the citizen-motes of ME, not just this one citizen-mote he particularly likes and admires. Gandalf is himself part of Fate, can't get out of Fate (or the Will of God) anymore than can Frodo.
He is going to equivocate on his answer to Frodo about when and how much he knew, because no matter what, he can't relieve Frodo of this burden.
Even before he knew it was The One Ring, he suspected it...and left it in the Shire.
a.s.
"an seileachan"
"Nothing that is worth doing can be achieved in our lifetime; therefore we must be saved by hope. Nothing which is true or beautiful or good makes complete sense in any immediate context of history; therefore we must be saved by faith. Nothing we do, however virtuous, can be accomplished alone; therefore we must be saved by love."
~~~Reinhold Niebuhr
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elostirion74
Nargothrond
Oct 30 2007, 2:40pm
Post #6 of 47
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That sure was an interesting connection between Tolkien's own beliefs and the character of Gandalf!
But even if Gandalf could not relieve Frodo of this burden, why should he wait for so long before taking action and planning how to get the Ring to Rivendell? Was the truth of his suspicions too alarming (as I'm prone to believe), so he simply did not want to accept the fact, or could it be due to some other reason?
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a.s.
Doriath
Oct 30 2007, 2:54pm
Post #7 of 47
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Frodo was *meant* to have the Ring
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and going backwards, Bilbo was meant to have the Ring. And while Gandalf wasn't sure if the "Power" that "meant" the hobbits to have the Ring was a good or bad Power (or some combination of those), he knows the two hobbits are good. The Ring is far safer in the obscure Shire with the hobbits--at least until Mordor gets wind of "Baggins" and "Shire", at any rate.
Gandalf may be an incarnate angel, but he isn't in direct communication with the Mind of Eru and/or the Valar. He isn't getting telepathic communications of some kind!  He is an incarnate being playing by the rules of incarnation. He is used to thinking about signs and portents and intentions; used to "catching the drift" of what the Powers That Be are up to and attempting to act accordingly.
Personally, and it saddens me to say so, I believe Gandalf has knowingly placed Frodo in harm's way--because he must. He knows the Ring is dangerous to Frodo, but has to make the decision to keep the Ring where it is, as the safest current course. All this talk about "making sure" and "investigating" and "talking to Saruman" and "consulting the library at Minas Tirith" is so much bluster. And Frodo begins to know this, when he asks Gandalf repeatedly "And WHEN did you know about the Ring?" until Gandalf, feeling guilty, snaps back.
This is the burden of incarnate angels, as I've said before: to love a particular individual being but, in duty, to realize you cannot both protect the individual and be a guardian to all.
a.s.
"an seileachan"
"Nothing that is worth doing can be achieved in our lifetime; therefore we must be saved by hope. Nothing which is true or beautiful or good makes complete sense in any immediate context of history; therefore we must be saved by faith. Nothing we do, however virtuous, can be accomplished alone; therefore we must be saved by love."
~~~Reinhold Niebuhr
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Morwen
Nargothrond
Oct 30 2007, 3:04pm
Post #8 of 47
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Does the length of time that has elapsed between the main action in The Hobbit and the present in LOTR seem too long?
No. The Hobbit ended with Bilbo safely and happily at home in the Shire. His adventure was over. If Bilbo had packed up and left the next year, he and the readers of The Hobbit would have been cheated out of their happy ending. Hobbits live longer than we do, so seventeen years is not such a long time for them as it would be for us.
Did this history bog you down at all when reading the book for the first time? How about during subsequent re-readings? For those of you who have read “The Silmarillion”, does this chapter fit in with the larger history of Middle-earth?
I never felt bogged down at all. Instead, I felt like I was being drawn into a deeper and larger world, with a history all its own.
What sorts of powers would these “lesser” rings have? Why would the elves feel a need to make such things?
Perhaps the lesser rings were prototypes, or simply practice, for the three greater rings. In that case, they would have had the same powers as the Three Rings but to a lesser degree; to preserve, heal and to kindle the hearts of men. The Elves would have made them to protect their homes in Middle-earth, to keep their lands green and safe.
Would the Dwarf Rings do the same thing to a man or a hobbit?
Not sure. Dwarves had somewhat different weaknesses than men and hobbits, and the rings appeared to attack the wearer's particular weakness. Perhaps a hobbit with a Dwarf Ring would have developed an insatiable craving for food, ale and tobacco to the exclusion of all else!
Do you think Frodo noticed anything different about Bilbo over the years? And if he did, did he think it was due to the Ring?
We don't notice oddities about the people we grow up with. To Frodo, who had known Bilbo all his life, I'm sure Bilbo was just Bilbo, and I doubt he connected anything about Bilbo's behavior or character with the Ring.
Why did it take Gandalf so long to figure out about the Ring?
For one thing, he trusted Saruman, and Saruman deliberately threw him off-track. Also, he had to be sure of his suspicions before he took any action. Can you imagine what would have happened if he'd sent Frodo off to Mordor to destroy the wrong Ring?
Finding out what he needed to know took time. Research would have taken longer in Middle-earth, Gandalf had to ride long distances to find the scrolls and books that he needed, or to talk Elrond or Galadriel. Councils of the Wise were infrequent. If Gandalf had had internet access, or even a phone or a car, he would have learned about the Ring much earlier but LotR would have definitely been a very different story.
’…I could only watch and wait might perhaps have consulted Saruman the White but something always held me back.’” Were these shadows and promptings the Powers aka the Valar at work?
I think Gandalf's reluctance to consult Saruman was due to his own intuition. His training and loyalty told him Saruman was his superior and someone to be trusted, but his heart and his common sense told him something different. But who knows when or where the Higher Powers are at work?
Do you think this is a comment by Tolkien on his dying academic discipline of philology? What does this say about Gandalf as one of the Wise?
I'm not sure if Tolkien purposely intended that statement to be a comment on his own interests, but he must have known what it feels like to be fascinated by a subject many other people can't understand, and think is dry or boring, or simply unimportant. Gandalf's willingness to explore the simple and the unsophisticated gave him an edge over the other Wise folk in Middle-earth.
I've heard your anguish, I've heard your hearts cry out
We are tired, we are weary, but we aren't worn out
Set down your chains, until only faith remains
Set down your chains--Jewel
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FarFromHome
Doriath
Oct 30 2007, 3:11pm
Post #9 of 47
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The problem I have with this interpretation
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is that I find it hard to accept that Gandalf would have put Frodo in harm's way without giving him the knowledge to decide to take up the burden willingly. He does give him this knowledge eventually, of course, in the Shadow of the Past. But before this, he has overseen the transfer of the Ring between Bilbo and Frodo, and left Frodo with the Ring long enough that he can no longer make a truly objective decision about it. Wouldn't it have been more respectful of the free will of Bilbo and Frodo if Gandalf had been completely honest with them from the start? As things stand, if Gandalf really did know all along that this was the One Ring, isn't he guilty of paternalism (or worse)? As Gandalf tells Frodo in this chapter, "All we have to decide is what to do with the time that is given us." It is this decision, to willingly accept one's duty (or not), that makes one a hero (or a villain). But until this point, Gandalf has not given Frodo (or earlier, Bilbo) the necessary knowledge to make such a decision, and by this point, the decision cannot be totally free.
...and the sails were drawn up, and the wind blew,
and slowly the ship slipped away down the long grey firth;
and the light of the glass of Galadriel that Frodo bore
glimmered and was lost.
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elostirion74
Nargothrond
Oct 30 2007, 3:20pm
Post #10 of 47
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What follows is a long history lesson. Did this history bog you down at all when reading the book for the first time? How about during subsequent re-readings? For those of you who have read “The Silmarillion”, does this chapter fit in with the larger history of Middle-earth?
The history certainly didn't bog me down - I liked it - but I didn't pay attention to details like I do know. As for the fit between The Silmarillion and this part of ancient history, it continues the theme of the dangers and temptations of creative work which is so dominant in the Silmarillion. At the same time the One Ring seems more like an item of old folklore - the idea of hiding your power or part of your soul into an object - than the Silmarils, whose light can be coveted, but have no particular sinister influence in their own right, in fact quite to the contrary.
The details that strike me nowadays revolve more around the effects of the Great Rings and the One Ring in particular on different characters and races. Would an elf wearing the One Ring be invisible to other elves, or would he visible anyway because the elves live at once in both worlds (Gandalf talking to Frodo about the Seen and the Unseen in Many Meetings) but inivisible to mortal men? Would there be a difference between the perception of elves who had been to Valinor and elves who had not? Was the One at all capable of making an elf fade?
And finally, what does Gandalf mean by saying that "the dark power sooner or later would devour" the one who wore it (supposing he or she was mortal)? Does he by "fading" mean that your own life force is reduced to a shadow?
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visualweasel
Nargothrond
Oct 30 2007, 4:02pm
Post #11 of 47
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What sorts of powers would these "lesser" rings have?
I imagine the first attempts, the lesser rings, were capable of simple tricks. Perhaps invisibility, like Bilbo's (without the nastier side-effects, naturally), or perhaps simpler, and subtler. Conveying far-sightedness, perhaps, or wisdom. Enhanced strength, skill, beauty. Cooking ability.
I'm guessing maybe +2 WIS, +1 INT, but -2 DEX — and maybe a +3 CHA at the cost of a -2 CON. And they probably helped your Save Versus Spell throw as well.
Jason Fisher
Lingwë - Musings of a Fish
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a.s.
Doriath
Oct 30 2007, 7:06pm
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I find it hard to accept that Gandalf would have put Frodo in harm's way without giving him the knowledge to decide to take up the burden willingly. He does give him this knowledge eventually, of course, in the Shadow of the Past. But before this, he has overseen the transfer of the Ring between Bilbo and Frodo, and left Frodo with the Ring long enough that he can no longer make a truly objective decision about it. Wouldn't it have been more respectful of the free will of Bilbo and Frodo if Gandalf had been completely honest with them from the start
However, at the time he convinces Bilbo to leave the Ring with Frodo, he isn't quite sure yet about the Ring. He sees it is dangerous, obviously, based on Bilbo's behavior. And he warns Frodo not to use it, because it may have "other powers than just making you vanish when you wish to", etc.
But during all the time he was gone out of the Shire, collecting information, he began to have grave misgivings and suspicions. He even plainly says he "first began to guess" way back when Bilbo first found the Ring, when the White Council first drove the dark power from Mirkwood. However, he says he couldn't take it by force from Bilbo, because that might harm him (or actually, "without doing greater harm", which may mean to both himself and the rest of ME--as well as Bilbo--if he puts himself up as a Dark Lord by forcefully removing the Ring from one who is "meant" to have it) and further, that he has "no right to do so anyway".
But the one thing he could have done--should have done, I often think, although it's hard to judge the decisions of angels--was tell both Bilbo and Frodo how dangerous the thing possibly was, how awful and terrible a threat it "probably" was. And how could he do that, and then leave? How to explain to someone that they might have the most terrible, powerful power in the whole of ME right there in their hobbit-hole, and then go off about the work of ME and leave it there with them, unguarded?
I'm sure he felt he had no recourse but to trust to the inherent goodness and innocence of the hobbits, over whom the Ring has obviously less influence than over wicked creatures (like Gollum) until he can make some plans, decide what to do with it, and try to find out from "lore" if there was anything to be done to destroy the thing.
So I'm not saying that Gandalf knew, prior to finding out exactly how to "unmake" the Ring, that he was condemning Frodo to a walk to Mordor and certain death there (we'll get to the point where I think Gandalf realizes that Frodo will not be able to actually throw the Ring in the Fire of Mt Doom soon, in this chapter). However, he knew a lot about the danger of a Ring of Power, a lot more than he shared with either Bilbo or Frodo.
And he left it there in the Shire because he had no other reasonable choice.
And I think Frodo realizes this, as he asks Gandalf repeatedly "How long have you known this?" (twice) and "when did you discover that?" (once).
But as Gandalf himself explains:
"Of course, my dear Frodo, it was dangerous for you; and that has troubled me deeply. But there was so much at stake that I had to take some risk..."
Gandalf made a risk-benefit analysis, and Frodo was expendable. It was, after all, his mission to be expendable. That's why he was "meant" to have the Ring.
a.s.
"an seileachan"
"Nothing that is worth doing can be achieved in our lifetime; therefore we must be saved by hope. Nothing which is true or beautiful or good makes complete sense in any immediate context of history; therefore we must be saved by faith. Nothing we do, however virtuous, can be accomplished alone; therefore we must be saved by love."
~~~Reinhold Niebuhr
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Darkstone
Elvenhome
Oct 31 2007, 4:54pm
Post #13 of 47
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Gandalf returns after a 9 year absence and almost 80 years after Bilbo set out on his ‘adventure”. Does the length of time that has elapsed between the main action in The Hobbit and the present in LOTR seem too long?
Absolutely! It's so long that Bilbo can't be the hero of LOTR. I was really miffed at that.
What follows is a long history lesson. Did this history bog you down at all when reading the book for the first time?
Not really. I like exposition if it's well done. This is very well done.
How about during subsequent re-readings?
I alway see something new.
For those of you who have read “The Silmarillion”, does this chapter fit in with the larger history of Middle-earth?
Silmarillion Light.
“’In Eregion long ago many Elven-rings were made, magic rings as you call them, and they were, of course, of various kinds; some more potent and some less. The lesser rings were only essays in the craft before it was full-grown, and to the Elven-smiths they were but trifles-yet still to my mind dangerous for mortals.” What sorts of powers would these “lesser” rings have?
Probably powers like the Legion of Substitute Heroes. Chlorophyll Kid could make plants grow super fast, Matter Eater Lad could eat anything, and Stone Boy could turn into an inanimate stone statue. Pretty useless overall, though they made good use of Stone Boy by dropping him on the bad guys.
Why would the elves feel a need to make such things?
Why would NASA feel a need to have the Mercury and Gemini projects instead of going straight to the moon right off the bat?
A twisted sort of immortality. I can see why the Rings would appeal to men envious of the immortal lives of the elves. Would the Dwarf Rings do the same thing to a man or a hobbit?
Sure. Sauron intended the rings to have those effects on Dwarves, but the nature of Dwarves thwarted him.
Do you think Frodo noticed anything different about Bilbo over the years?
If he's as smart as Pippin and Sam.
And if he did, did he think it was due to the Ring?
If he's as smart as Merry.
Gandalf goes on to say that he became concerned about the Ring from the beginning of Bilbo’s possession. “’A shadow fell on my heart then, though I did not know yet what I feared…Clearly the ring had an unwholesome power that set to work on its keeper at once. That was the first real warning that I had that all was not well… ’” Why did it take Gandalf so long to figure out about the Ring?
He's got a lot on his mind. And the Shadow can be felt everywhere. It's like trying to find a skunk in a mercaptan distillery.
“’…I could only watch and wait might perhaps have consulted Saruman the White but something always held me back.’” Were these shadows and promptings the Powers aka the Valar at work?
Divine intuition, which as Tacitus notes is highly prized and respected by the Germanic people. I think it's a faint memory of the Music of the Ainur (see my sig). The same reason he picked Bilbo to go with Thorin.
"Among the Wise I am the only one that goes in for hobbit-lore; an obscure branch of knowledge, but full of surprises.’” Do you think this is a comment by Tolkien on his dying academic discipline of philology?
I never thought of it that way before, but nice catch.
What does this say about Gandalf as one of the Wise?
He listens to his gut. Which, really, if more people did, they wouldn't get into so many bad situations.
******************************************
The audacious proposal stirred his heart. And the stirring became a song, and it mingled with the songs of Gil-galad and Celebrian, and with those of Feanor and Fingon. The song-weaving created a larger song, and then another, until suddenly it was as if a long forgotten memory woke and for one breathtaking moment the Music of the Ainur revealed itself in all glory. He opened his lips to sing and share this song. Then he realized that the others would not understand. Not even Mithrandir given his current state of mind. So he smiled and simply said "A diversion.”
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Curious
Gondolin
Oct 31 2007, 9:45pm
Post #14 of 47
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Except that "reason" has little to do with it.
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It's more about trust -- Gandalf's trust in Higher Powers, and Bilbo and Frodo's trust in Gandalf. Gandalf operates based on hunches and intuition rather than reason and deduction, and often asks others to do the same. Saruman and Denethor, on the other hand, are men of reason.
So Gandalf left the ring with Bilbo because he trusted that Someone meant for Bilbo to find it. He encouraged Bilbo to pass it along because he trusted that Someone meant for the ring to come to Frodo. Gandalf asked Bilbo and Frodo to trust him, as he himself trusted in Higher Powers. And Bilbo and Frodo did trust him, even when they could not possibly comprehend what they were up against.
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FarFromHome
Doriath
Oct 31 2007, 10:07pm
Post #15 of 47
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Yes, I think that's the crux of it.
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It's about faith. In the world of the story, it's important to put your trust in those who are wiser than you. Even though Frodo gives Gandalf a bit of a hard time in The Shadow of the Past, more or less asking what took him so long to come clean about the Ring, ultimately he accepts that Gandalf is wiser than him, and that it's his duty to allow himself to be led by him. Gandalf tells Frodo what he thinks is best for him to know, and makes it clear that he has no intention of telling him everything that the Wise know!
I think we see the same thing with Sam, as he watches Frodo make difficult decisions regarding Gollum. Sam doesn't always understand why Frodo chooses to behave as he does, which sometimes worries him, but he trusts Frodo's wisdom and accepts his decisions on faith. Gandalf has faith in the Higher Powers, Frodo has faith in Gandalf, Sam has faith in Frodo. It's a hierarchical system, but accepted willingly by those at every level. A wonderful fantasy of what the world might be like if we really could have faith in our leaders!
...and the sails were drawn up, and the wind blew,
and slowly the ship slipped away down the long grey firth;
and the light of the glass of Galadriel that Frodo bore
glimmered and was lost.
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a.s.
Doriath
Oct 31 2007, 11:11pm
Post #16 of 47
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yes, I meant that when I said:
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"Gandalf may be an incarnate angel, but he isn't in direct communication with the Mind of Eru and/or the Valar. He isn't getting telepathic communications of some kind! He is an incarnate being playing by the rules of incarnation. He is used to thinking about signs and portents and intentions; used to "catching the drift" of what the Powers That Be are up to and attempting to act accordingly."
I don't mean Gandalf had any choice in trusting Frodo. I don't mean Gandalf used Frodo to further Gandalf's own end. I don't mean Gandalf is responsible for the workings of Providence. I don't think Gandalf really had any choice in the matter--except for not telling what he really knew about the Ring and passing that lapse off as "not being sure". That was his choice, and he decided to leave Frodo with vague warnings about using a "magic ring".
Maybe it's slightly too cold to say that Gandalf did a risk-benefit ratio and decided the safest thing to do was leave it in the Shire with Frodo in ignorance of all the fretful things he (Gandalf) was worried about concerning this ring. But that's how it appears to me: he decided Frodo was meant to have this ring, and decided to just leave it with him but withhold information about his suspicions.
Gandalf doesn't decide that Frodo is expendable. Gandalf sadly acknowledges that Frodo is expendable. I don't think Gandalf thought so at the beginning of his quest for information about the Ring. But by the time of this chapter, he knows it.
And by the end of the chapter, in my opinion, so does Frodo.
a.s.
"an seileachan"
"Nothing that is worth doing can be achieved in our lifetime; therefore we must be saved by hope. Nothing which is true or beautiful or good makes complete sense in any immediate context of history; therefore we must be saved by faith. Nothing we do, however virtuous, can be accomplished alone; therefore we must be saved by love."
~~~Reinhold Niebuhr
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Curious
Gondolin
Nov 1 2007, 1:05am
Post #17 of 47
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I don't think Gandalf really had any choice in the matter--except for not telling what he really knew about the Ring and passing that lapse off as "not being sure". That was his choice, and he decided to leave Frodo with vague warnings about using a "magic ring".
What makes you think Gandalf was lying about being unsure? Or that he knew this was the One Ring when he said he didn't?
As for Frodo being expendable, it is true that Gandalf is used to sending others into danger. It is his mission, really, since he is forbidden from matching his own strength against Sauron's. He did it with Bilbo, he did it with Aragorn, and he does it with whole armies where necessary. But Gandalf knows that the alternative is even worse. It isn't Gandalf that has placed Frodo in danger, nor the Higher Powers, but Sauron. Against all hope, Frodo has been given an opportunity to save the Shire. And Gandalf has faith in Frodo, just as he has faith in Aragorn. Frodo isn't some poor dupe being set up for a fall. Frodo is Gandalf's pride and joy, chosen for a heroic task.
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a.s.
Doriath
Nov 1 2007, 2:38am
Post #18 of 47
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once again, I fail to communicate!!
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Sometimes I wish we were all sitting around in a room conversing, rather than trying to type out our thoughts, as I am always in a hurry and obviously not being particularly clear.
I agree that Gandalf wasn't *sure* exactly what the Ring was after Bilbo's party, only that it was very bad, much worse than he had initially thought. What Gandalf failed to do was tell Frodo that---even though he wasn't SURE---he had very grave doubts about the Ring, and about Frodo's place in this whole thing, but was trusting that Frodo was meant to have the Ring and so was leaving it with him because it seemed the only alternative.
In other words, Gandalf lied by omission. He didn't tell Frodo of his grave misgivings--that's the lie. Why did Gandalf have to be CERTAIN of what the Ring was EXACTLY prior to telling Frodo he was gravely worried and that Frodo was bound up in the fate of the Ring one way or another?
I agree that Gandalf made that choice (to leave the Ring with Frodo) out of necessity and out of quick judging of facts and best case-worst case analysis. He didn't think Frodo had to know the depth of his worry at that point. I get that.
It still makes Frodo an unequal partner here.
Frodo isn't some poor dupe being set up for a fall. Frodo is Gandalf's pride and joy, chosen for a heroic task.
I am not saying that, and that's how I know I am not communicating my thoughts. I am trying to say that Gandalf did not tell Frodo what he knew about the Ring AS HE KNEW IT. Even during the times he visited the Shire, he did not let Frodo know what he was doing. He purposely left Frodo out of the loop.
I believe he probably did this to spare Frodo, not from some evil motive.
I believe this is what makes Gandalf such a sympathetic wizard: he must try to do his duty to the Powers That Be and that sent him to ME, and this means he must get Frodo to accept that he is meant to have the Ring. He cannot try to save this one small mortal creature, even if he wants to.
And I interpret the scene where Frodo cannot throw the ring in the fire at Bag End, which Gandalf gets him to try doing fully knowing he won't be able to do it, to be a foreshadowing of Frodo's inevitable failure, losing either himself or his sanity in the process. Even if Gandalf doesn't exactly see Frodo walking all the way to Mordor at this point, he knows (he has just seen demonstrated) that Frodo will not be able to divest himself of the Ring without force, which will break him in some way (I don't have the book upstairs to quote from).
Frodo is doomed. Gandalf is sad about that, because he loves and admires Frodo. Gandalf is a good guy.
a.s.
"an seileachan"
"Nothing that is worth doing can be achieved in our lifetime; therefore we must be saved by hope. Nothing which is true or beautiful or good makes complete sense in any immediate context of history; therefore we must be saved by faith. Nothing we do, however virtuous, can be accomplished alone; therefore we must be saved by love."
~~~Reinhold Niebuhr
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Curious
Gondolin
Nov 1 2007, 11:28am
Post #19 of 47
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At least not in a bad way. Yes, Frodo will not be able to live out his days among the hobbits in the Shire. But Frodo will be exalted in the highest. Even if he does not find healing in Valinor, his soul will find happiness. Frodo is lucky. Granted, its the kind of luck most of us could do without. Most of us would prefer not to be heroes or martyrs or saints. But in the grand scheme of things, in Tolkien's mythos, Frodo is blessed, just as the Nazgul, for all their powers, are cursed.
On the other hand, again, after Bilbo's departure, Gandalf doesn't know anything. It isn't a lie if you aren't concealing anything. Gandalf is worried about the ring, and he tell Frodo is worried about the ring. He doesn't lie about that at all. Gandalf is not even 50% sure about the nature of the ring, not even 10% sure, so there is nothing more to tell except that he is worried. Indeed, Gandalf has every reason to believe that this is not the One Ring, which the head of his order, Saruman, has assured him is lost forever. Yet Gandalf is worried. So he doesn't know what more to say. To say anything more at this point would be sheer speculation, and in Gandalf's mind might very well be misleading.
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FarFromHome
Doriath
Nov 1 2007, 2:55pm
Post #20 of 47
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Frodo has been "chosen", and yes, if he succeeds in fulfilling the task he has been chosen for, he will be blessed and exalted. The difficulty lies in whether Gandalf is simply an agent of Fate, or whether he has a duty of care (like a doctor or maybe like a lawyer). It's normal for Fate (or just blind chance) to thrust an unprepared person into a situation where they will be tested. But normally, if the situation is one under the control of other people, even ones who have more knowledge or expertise than us (in fact, especially them), we expect those people to share whatever information they have. If a doctor didn't disclose full information about risks, survival rates etc., to a patient, he would be failing in his duty. Gandalf clearly suspects more than he tells Bilbo - Bilbo wouldn't have passed the Ring on if he'd known what Gandalf suspected. And in Rivendell Bilbo tells Frodo how he wanted to go back and get the Ring once Gandalf told him how dangerous it was, but Gandalf wouldn't let him.
Now, I'm not arguing that Gandalf wasn't acting for the best. I'm just saying he was acting in a high-handed manner. This used to be quite common at one time - ordinary folk were kept in the dark because their "betters" felt that was more appropriate. Within the context of the story, I can accept this - Gandalf is higher and Wiser than others. He keeps many things secret, because that's the way Wizards work. But, on the other hand, it means that he doesn't allow Bilbo and Frodo to make clear choices for themselves. He lets "Fate" do its work first, at which point their choices are limited - they can either do what they are "meant" to do, or refuse and fail.
...and the sails were drawn up, and the wind blew,
and slowly the ship slipped away down the long grey firth;
and the light of the glass of Galadriel that Frodo bore
glimmered and was lost.
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Curious
Gondolin
Nov 1 2007, 3:17pm
Post #21 of 47
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I still don't think Gandalf withholds much.
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He doesn't sit down and discuss everything he knows about rings with Frodo after Bilbo's party, and all the various possibilities he must investigate, because there are too many possibilities to list. He does share his vague sense of unease with Frodo, and that's about all it is -- a vague sense of unease.
Doctors, again, are men of reason, who discuss what they know with their patients, not their hunches. And yes, at one time doctors might not have shared what they knew with their patients -- but that is not an apt analogy, because at the end of Bilbo's party Gandalf doesn't know anything. No doctor would make a diagnosis based on the information available to Gandalf at that time.
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FarFromHome
Doriath
Nov 1 2007, 3:55pm
Post #22 of 47
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Tolkien finesses it quite nicely
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We only have Gandalf's word for what he knew and when he knew it.
Dernwyn recently posted some interesting notes from Tolkien's early drafts, where he noted that it might seem like a "dirty trick" to hand on the Ring. I think in the end, Tolkien gets around this problem quite well, but there's still a hint of it there, I find. Both Bilbo and Frodo seem to be told, for their "own good", less than everything Gandalf knew or suspected. Gandalf admits as much himself, when Frodo questions him:
Gandalf looked at Frodo, and his eyes glinted. I knew much and I have learned much," he answered. "But I am not going to give an account of all my doings to you."
That's fine - it's the way the story works. Gandalf is in some ways a personification of (or agent of) Fate, although on another level he's also a counsellor. Fate isn't expected to consult with the people it affects, but a counsellor or mentor is. There's a certain ambiguity there, I think, in Gandalf's role.
...and the sails were drawn up, and the wind blew,
and slowly the ship slipped away down the long grey firth;
and the light of the glass of Galadriel that Frodo bore
glimmered and was lost.
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Darkstone
Elvenhome
Nov 1 2007, 4:24pm
Post #23 of 47
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"Elves seldom give unguarded advice, for advice is a dangerous gift, even from the wise to the wise, and all courses may run ill."
-Gildor Inglorion
******************************************
The audacious proposal stirred his heart. And the stirring became a song, and it mingled with the songs of Gil-galad and Celebrian, and with those of Feanor and Fingon. The song-weaving created a larger song, and then another, until suddenly it was as if a long forgotten memory woke and for one breathtaking moment the Music of the Ainur revealed itself in all glory. He opened his lips to sing and share this song. Then he realized that the others would not understand. Not even Mithrandir given his current state of mind. So he smiled and simply said "A diversion.”
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a.s.
Doriath
Nov 1 2007, 5:18pm
Post #24 of 47
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**a.s. transfers all her thoughts to FFH for translation from this point on.
LOL.
Just kidding.
But you said what I meant. There is a hint. I catch it EACH time I read this chapter now.
Gandalf is in some ways a personification of (or agent of) Fate, although on another level he's also a counsellor. Fate isn't expected to consult with the people it affects, but a counsellor or mentor is. There's a certain ambiguity there, I think, in Gandalf's role.
Yes. It's what I mean by Gandalf's particular burden. He can't help but love some individuals along the way of ministering to the good of all. It must tear him in two, at times.
a.s.
"an seileachan"
"Nothing that is worth doing can be achieved in our lifetime; therefore we must be saved by hope. Nothing which is true or beautiful or good makes complete sense in any immediate context of history; therefore we must be saved by faith. Nothing we do, however virtuous, can be accomplished alone; therefore we must be saved by love."
~~~Reinhold Niebuhr
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a.s.
Doriath
Nov 1 2007, 5:39pm
Post #25 of 47
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He was meant to have the Ring. That's his doom. It's already come to pass. The powers that be have determined this, so Gandalf says. At this point, no one (including Gandalf) can know exactly how this is all going to play out. However, it's obvious by the end of this chapter-to Gandalf and, in my interpretation, to Frodo- that it won't be good.
I don't mean they have an inkling of the ultimate end, at this point. I just mean both of them will accept, by the end of this chapter, that Frodo's doom is wrapped up in the Ring, and it won't be good.
Frodo has no choice but to become guardian of the Ring, at this point. I mean, no real choice. He has had a demonstration of trying to rid himself of it (he can't). Gandalf has explained that he (Gandalf) can't take it from him (Frodo) without destroying him in some essential manner. Gandalf can't take the Ring. NO ONE can take the Ring, at this point. Frodo is stuck in a web of fate.
Guardianship of the Ring is Frodo's doom. He is doomed to be a Ringbearer.
a.s.
"an seileachan"
"Nothing that is worth doing can be achieved in our lifetime; therefore we must be saved by hope. Nothing which is true or beautiful or good makes complete sense in any immediate context of history; therefore we must be saved by faith. Nothing we do, however virtuous, can be accomplished alone; therefore we must be saved by love."
~~~Reinhold Niebuhr
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