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The One Ring Forums: Tolkien Topics: Movie Discussion: The Lord of the Rings:
SCOD - Theodred, Eomer and Eowyn

Loresilme
Valinor


Sep 19 2012, 6:14pm

Post #1 of 11 (986 views)
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SCOD - Theodred, Eomer and Eowyn Can't Post





1. There are lots of new characters introduced at the beginning of TTT. Do you think the way this scene was done was effective in helping to communicate who these characters are and what their importance is in the story?

2. What exactly *is* their importance in the story? For instance, from the standpoint of the action and flow of the film, was the character of (film) Theodred necessary?

3. Aside from Eowyn's whispered "Theodred!", there are no words in this scene. Yet there seems to be a lot going on here. What do you think was the intent in this scene?



Thanks for viewing and please feel free to share any comments that come to mind - discussion is not restricted to just the questions above :).


Cheers!








(This post was edited by Loresilme on Sep 19 2012, 6:22pm)


One Ringer
Tol Eressea


Sep 19 2012, 6:46pm

Post #2 of 11 (412 views)
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From what I remember of the theatrical version [In reply to] Can't Post

the scene when they find Theodred is cut, and we enter on Eomer returning to Edoras. In my opinion (though I would've only seen that version once, MAYBE twice) this scene comes across better with it. Knowing from the start that Theodred is a prince makes more of an impact and understanding when we see both Eomer and Eowyn here, a sort of solemn shudder that doom is at hand, and Rohan is suffocating by the works of Saruman. Though the state of things are told in the following scenes, I find it more enticing to have to put pieces together beforehand, and therefore makes it less overwhelming to receive so much information.

FOTR 10th Anniversary Music Video - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=33xJU3AIwsg

"You do not let your eyes see nor your ears hear, and that which is outside your daily life is not of account to you. Ah, it is the fault of our science that it wants to explain all; and if it explain not, then it says there is nothing to explain."



GoodGuyA
Lorien

Sep 19 2012, 10:20pm

Post #3 of 11 (370 views)
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The Rohan culture, I feel, was just impossible to introduce correctly [In reply to] Can't Post

1. There are lots of new characters introduced at the beginning of TTT. Do you think the way this scene was done was effective in helping to communicate who these characters are and what their importance is in the story?

I personally really like the great character scenes at the beginning of the picture, but it really halts the flow of the piece. They were certainly necessary, given that you can't just wait until halfway through the film to introduce them, yet they never felt right. Perhaps it was just the feeling of it overall, as it seemed detached from the true suffering of Rohan. Maybe that was just to subtle for me to catch, but I still don't quite see it. Eomer particularly never got cleared up for me. I never remembered him from the book, and all I knew is that he was part of the royal family.

In terms of introducing their character elements, it's not entirely successful at that either, since the scene is basically repeated with Eowyn after Theodred's death and seeing Eomer's exile really makes you doubt the whole validity of Rohan society. Their importance is certainly not brought out, beyond the fact that these characters are focused on for a time in the film. Their connection to the quest does not become clear basically until they reach Helm's Deep.

2. What exactly *is* their importance in the story? For instance, from the standpoint of the action and flow of the film, was the character of (film) Theodred necessary?

Theodred was certainly necessary, otherwise you only see the bad of Theoden. Without his 'sacrifice', there's no way for Theoden to gain perspective on what's around him, or gain a greater peace with himself. Eomer didn't seem all that necessary, as I said, and I mean that in the sense that neither is Erkenbrand. The purpose of the character sort of undermines Gandalf's contribution to the story at all; to know that their salvation lies in just having "more Rohirrim". Eowyn's better scene is the one with Wormtongue, so this wasn't completely necessary. I think most will agree that the bringing out of Eowyn's character was much an improvement, beyond arguments of where she should have been in the film. Like I said, it's just a very complicated scene to put in the film, and giving it more time wouldn't have solved anything. Our heroes get thrown by the wayside for a few minutes, and we miss them because we want to understand their struggles more than the political situation of Rohan (which in itself becomes very engaging, but it takes a while).

3. Aside from Eowyn's whispered "Theodred!", there are no words in this scene. Yet there seems to be a lot going on here. What do you think was the intent in this scene?

The intent was, obviously, as you said, to introduce the characters and relationships to each other. Eomer is seen as the mirthful warrior standing overhead, Theodred is a rather important man to have one person who looks rather garnished at his side, and Eowyn's compassion serves as the basis for the rest of her character. Beyond the proper relationships, that was all portrayed very well through their simple expressions. It's not a bad scene, in and of itself, but the placement just contributes to why TTT suffers as a film.




weaver
Half-elven

Sep 20 2012, 12:02am

Post #4 of 11 (355 views)
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I loved the intro to Rohan, all the way around... [In reply to] Can't Post

When I read the books the first time, I had a hard time getting into the whole Rohan section of the Tale...I was so caught up in the story of the main characters, that I had little patience for wanting to learn about these people. Eowyn came along at the right time, as she was a character that created a focal point that interested me.

In the films, I think they did a great job at getting us to immediately feel a connection and interest with this new culture. The mother who sends her children away to safety gets our sympathy. Then, we get this scene, and we see a fallen soldier, right after Saruman's line about "Rohan is ready to fall". Without knowing their names, or anything about them, we start to wonder about all of them -- who is "Theodred, why do the other characters (E&E) care so much about him, what kind of bond do they have that they can communicate to each other without words, etc. And from there, as Gimli will say, it gets even better!

What the films do is emotionally connect is with Rohan, rather than giving us a history lesson, I guess. This scene is a great example of how they did that. All in all, I thought it was a very effective way to pull the audience into this next and very different chapter of the story.

(Oh, and thanks for leading SCOD on Hobbit Trailer week! It was nice to come in here and get away from the noise on the Hobbit Board for a bit!)Smile

Weaver



Ataahua
Superuser / Moderator


Sep 20 2012, 12:46am

Post #5 of 11 (396 views)
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Also, [In reply to] Can't Post

this scene introduces Eomer and Eowyn as brother and sister, and that they have a close relationship (by understanding each other without talking). The prince's death also lends weight to the crippling despair of Theoden.

Also, more Eomer = more good.

Celebrimbor: "Pretty rings..."
Dwarves: "Pretty rings..."
Men: "Pretty rings..."
Sauron: "Mine's better."

"Ah, how ironic, the addictive qualities of Sauronís master weapon led to its own destruction. Which just goes to show, kids - if you want two small and noble souls to succeed on a mission of dire importance... send an evil-minded b*****d with them too." - Gandalf's Diaries, final par, by Ufthak.


Ataahua's stories


Nuradar
Rohan


Sep 20 2012, 1:31pm

Post #6 of 11 (322 views)
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contrast to Theoden [In reply to] Can't Post

I agree with weaver and the others on all points - well stated, guys. I just want to add that, for me, Eowyn and Eomer also served as a nice contrast to Theoden, who's mind has been ensnared by Sauman, via Wormtongue. They portray the despair and sorrow that is required for the imminent death of Theodred, while his father is oblivious to it. This simultaneously makes us identify with E&E, while also making Theoden's release from Saruman's hold more emotional.

Thanks Loresilme!

Nuradar


Shelob'sAppetite
Valinor

Sep 21 2012, 5:12am

Post #7 of 11 (318 views)
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Agreed on Eomer [In reply to] Can't Post

Karl Urban is a fantastic actor, and a perfect Eomer.

I would have liked to have seen more of him in Return of the King, where he was very sparsely employed.


zarabia
Tol Eressea


Sep 21 2012, 6:43am

Post #8 of 11 (292 views)
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This shines a light on Eomer's character [In reply to] Can't Post

I agree with the others. There's no easy way to introduce so many new characters, so it's best to throw the viewer right into the family drama.

I think seeing Eomer carefully carrying a dying Theodred home, and then showing true concern for his cousin at his deathbed shows he (Eomer) is an honorable man and not an opportunist looking to exploit the fact that he's about to become that much closer to the throne. So when you see him later confront our trio, there's tension, but it's the tension of seeing two equally honorable sides, who, because of circumstances, must first be suspicious of each other.


Thanks, Loresilme Smile




One Ringer
Tol Eressea


Sep 21 2012, 7:34am

Post #9 of 11 (299 views)
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Very true, [In reply to] Can't Post

I think it's safe to say that most of us are of sound mind of what is conveyed in this sequence, which must mean something is being done right. Tongue

FOTR 10th Anniversary Music Video - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=33xJU3AIwsg

"You do not let your eyes see nor your ears hear, and that which is outside your daily life is not of account to you. Ah, it is the fault of our science that it wants to explain all; and if it explain not, then it says there is nothing to explain."



Lily Fairbairn
Half-elven


Sep 21 2012, 7:56pm

Post #10 of 11 (285 views)
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Yes! [In reply to] Can't Post

I would so have liked to see the scene where Aragorn and Eomer meet in the midst of the battle of the Pelennor, but then, that was set up by events and dialog earlier, which wasn't in the movie either.

I can imagine those two actors when I read the scene in the book, though.




Shelob'sAppetite
Valinor

Sep 22 2012, 12:39am

Post #11 of 11 (647 views)
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One of the most disappointing ommissions of all for me [In reply to] Can't Post

The moment when the battle is almost completely lost, and despair takes hold of Eomer, we have a mini-eucatastrophe, as the banner of the foe is replaced for the banner of the White Tree. Eomer's sudden joy at this unexpected turn from death to life is incredibly powerful, and a key theme of Tolkien's LOTR.

Urban would have nailed it, I think.

 
 

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