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Ataahua
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Oct 26 2007, 5:14am
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LOTR chapter discussion: A Long Expected Party - open discussion!
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Have I left something out? Raise any additional topics from chapter one here!
***
And finally, a big thank you to everyone who has taken part in the discussion this week. Who would have thought that ruminations upon LOTR's fist chapter would have included references to snapdragons, Snoopy, and lobsters attached to delicate parts of the anatomy? 
Celebrimbor: "Pretty rings..."
Dwarves: "Pretty rings..."
Men: "Pretty rings..."
Sauron: "Mine's better."
"Ah, how ironic, the addictive qualities of Sauron’s master weapon led to its own destruction. Which just goes to show, kids - if you want two small and noble souls to succeed on a mission of dire importance... send an evil-minded b*****d with them too." - Gandalf's Diaries, final par, by Ufthak.
Ataahua's stories
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NoseOfSauron
Nevrast
Oct 26 2007, 2:07pm
Post #2 of 38
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Just wanted to add that I like Tolkien's "Mirror Effect"... that is, The Hobbit begins with an Unexpected Party, and LOTR Fellowship begins with a Long-Expected Party.
If Gandalf could just jump on an eagle and fly into Mordor... WHY IN THE NAME OF ERU DIDN'T HE DO IT THREE MOVIES AGO!?!
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Riel
Lindon
Oct 26 2007, 3:05pm
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great job! i really enjoyed this discussion. i like how the LOTR starts out...and yes, i always thought that "mirror-effect" was cool too.  i can't really think of anything else to add...
"Even the smallest person can change the course of the future."
~Galadriel
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Curious
Gondolin
Oct 26 2007, 4:55pm
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Here's a link to a blog I once started.
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I didn't get very far, but it has some of my thoughts regarding this chapter. Note that the earliest posts are at the bottom, so it is best read from the bottom up.
http://tolkienfan.blogspot.com/
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N.E. Brigand
Gondolin
Oct 27 2007, 12:38am
Post #5 of 38
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"Who is the first individual to actually speak in 'The Lord of the Rings'?"
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Here's a link to a discussion of that question from May, in which about a dozen different answers were suggested: if you want the summary, see squire's two responses.
Thanks for a great week, Ataahua!
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We're discussing The Lord of the Rings in the Reading Room, Oct. 15, 2007 - Mar. 22, 2009!
Join us Oct. 22-28 for "A Long-expected Party".
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Beren IV
Mithlond
Oct 27 2007, 2:31am
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Despite all of the things that we may argue about over the Silmarillion, the deeper meanings of LotR, and whether or not Tolkien was a nutcase, the fact remains that he could tell a very good adventure story, and that is what LotR is, from the very first line. Most of what we have been discussing this week are basically the fundamentals of writing fiction, and it is men like Tolkien that have taught us these academic lessons. The first main conflict of the story is introduced in the opening lines, but is only hinted at. We are given the feeling that there is tension, that all is not necessarily as it should be, and the suspense keeps us reading. The first chapter to me often seems very long, and at a glance, it is boring: it is a birthday party for people who aren't even real. Except, that, we know, that there is trouble to come, and the angst is palpable. It leads us into the second chapter, which is the real beginning of the novel, when the information about the enemy is first explained!
Once a paleontologist, now a botanist, will be a paleobotanist
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SilentLion
Ossiriand
Oct 27 2007, 12:10pm
Post #7 of 38
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Very nice discussion in your blog
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I enjoyed reading through it, and it meshed very well with the discussion from the past week.
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N.E. Brigand
Gondolin
Oct 27 2007, 6:15pm
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"What do you call these things, gardener?"
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I like what you wrote about the Gaffer and "roots", and also his function as foil for Bilbo.
That Bilbo was "consulting him constantly on the growing of vegetables" reminds me of Tolkien's conversation with an Oxford gardener (from Letter #148, quoted lately by Darkstone) on the subject of "naturtians". And that points up one of Tolkien's other unusual words in this chapter.
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N.E. Brigand
Gondolin
Oct 27 2007, 6:42pm
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has "nasturtiums" for "nasturtians"!
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N.E. Brigand
Gondolin
Oct 27 2007, 7:20pm
Post #11 of 38
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What pictures hang on Frodo's walls?
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There was plenty of everything left for Frodo. And, of course, all the chief treasures, as well as the books, pictures, and more than enough furniture, were left in his possession.
And what books does he read?
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a.s.
Doriath
Oct 27 2007, 10:29pm
Post #12 of 38
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books are known in the Shire, enough that
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as one of his parting gifts, Bilbo gives a book-case to someone who is always borrowing books.
So not only do books exist, but they are inexpensive enough to be easily borrowed.
So...what books might they be? And how unusual was it, really, that Frodo and Bilbo both were writing books? In Bree, the Bree hobbits react with some surprise when Frodo says he is writing a book about history and geography, so maybe books are more unusual in Bree. Or maybe more unusual only among the kinds of hobbits who congregate in the common room at the Prancing Pony.
Paintings? I vote for pastorals of some kind, in a Romantic style. Pictures of the sheep on the little hills of the Shire, that sort of thing. Good taste, but provincial. And some good old-fashioned portraits of ancestor hobbits in old-fashioned get-ups.
a.s.
"an seileachan"
"Nothing that is worth doing can be achieved in our lifetime; therefore we must be saved by hope. Nothing which is true or beautiful or good makes complete sense in any immediate context of history; therefore we must be saved by faith. Nothing we do, however virtuous, can be accomplished alone; therefore we must be saved by love."
~~~Reinhold Niebuhr
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squire
Gondolin
Oct 28 2007, 12:05am
Post #13 of 38
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My first thought on this was that it did not. I thought it only had scrolls and manuscripts, which would put it technologically quite behind the Shire. Bilbo's books would have been another example of the essential early Victorian anachronicity of the Shire, along with the umbrella and the postal service.
In fact Gondor does have books, as we are told explicitly at least twice (remember where?). But they are always mentioned in a context that puts them in a continuum with those hoary scrolls and manuscripts, in the archives of the City, as mere records. Nothing we hear about Gondor suggests that the gentle lords and ladies of Denethor's demesne read books for pleasure, have bookshelves full of them in their houses, and even borrow each other's volumes as the highly literate hobbits of Bilbo's class clearly do.
I think the distinction is still there, only it is subtle. Tolkien could not quite afford to keep the Shire (descended from The Hobbit, where it was explicitly not supposed to be in contact with the heroic empires) entirely out of the world that Gondor so dominates, culturally and intellectually. By including books in Gondor's world, but downplaying them and withholding the kind of easy familiarity with them that the hobbits have, he makes both his points. Yes the Hobbits are somehow more advanced than the Numenoreans, but only as a kind of hothouse-flower petty bourgeoisie, not in any exclusive or potent way.
squire online:
RR Discussions: The Valaquenta, A Shortcut to Mushrooms, and Of Herbs and Stewed Rabbit
Lights! Action! Discuss on the Movie board!: 'A Journey in the Dark'.
Footeramas: The 3rd TORn Reading Room LotR Discussion; and "Tolkien would have LOVED it!"
squiretalk introduces the J.R.R. Tolkien Encyclopedia: A Reader's Diary
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dernwyn
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Oct 28 2007, 1:52am
Post #14 of 38
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"But nobody will read the book,
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however it ends."
This bothers me. What is Gandalf saying, here? Does he mean, that he really thinks no one will be interested in reading the book of Bilbo's adventures? Or, that he thinks Bilbo will not make the book available for those outside his own family to see? Or, is he teasing Bilbo about the interest level of his stories?
Thanks, Ataahua, for leading us in a fun chapter!
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"I desired dragons with a profound desire"
"It struck me last night that you might write a fearfully good romantic drama, with as much of the 'supernatural' as you cared to introduce. Have you ever thought of it?"
-Geoffrey B. Smith, letter to JRR Tolkien, 1915
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N.E. Brigand
Gondolin
Oct 28 2007, 2:24am
Post #15 of 38
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Presumably not to return, so it is unlikely anyone in the Shire will read Bilbo's book. And if Gandalf guesses that Bilbo will end up settling in Rivendell, perhaps he is thinking that elves, as Lindir's example in "Many Meetings" will show, have little interest in a hobbit's affairs
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Curious
Gondolin
Oct 28 2007, 3:38am
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Few hobbits ever read the Red Book.
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The hobbits simply aren't interested, with the exception of Sam's direct descendants. The version of the Red Book that Tolkien "translates" is the edition sent to Gondor, rewritten, annotated, and corrected by Gondorian scribes.
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N.E. Brigand
Gondolin
Oct 28 2007, 3:50am
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"The greater families were also concerned with events in the Kingdom at large"
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Within the conceit, Tolkien seems to have worked from more than one copy of the Red Book, else how could he say that only in Findegil's copy were Bilbo's 'Translations from the Elvish' preserved? And it's worth noting that Findegil's copy was made at the request of Pippin's great-grandson, and apparently returned to the Shire: interest was not entirely restricted to Sam's descendants. But in addition to at least two copies of the Red Book --one of them with the addition of excerpts from The Tale of Aragorn and Arwen (composed by Faramir's grandson) and other Gondorian matter-- The Lord of the Rings is also imagined to be derived from several other Shire works, including Merry's Herblore of the Shire and Reckoning of Years, and possibly his Old Words and Names in the Shire (for parts of Appendix F to LotR?) and The Tale of Years compiled by Pippin.
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N.E. Brigand
Gondolin
Oct 28 2007, 3:52am
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if perhaps that error appeared in the copy you were using then?
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Curious
Gondolin
Oct 28 2007, 4:22am
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I got the quote from Google Groups, as I often do, and it is still there.
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Kimi
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Oct 28 2007, 4:31am
Post #21 of 38
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with things they already knew, set out fair and square with no contradictions" (as we're told in the Prologue are what hobbits liked) would be the sort Bilbo might have inherited from his father. Historical records, perhaps (preferably of events from the not too distant past); gardening lore; animal husbandry; household hints.
And books of genealogical lore. All literate hobbits would have had their share of family histories on the shelves.
We're told (also in the Prologue) that "A love of learning (other than genealogical lore) was far from general among them, but there remained still a few in the older families who studied their own books, and even gathered reports of old times and distant lands from Elves, Dwarves, and Men." Perhaps Bilbo had acquired some books from the Took hoard.
I'd imagine he would have family portraits on the walls, with an occasional still life painted by a maiden aunt with pretensions to being artistic.
  
Promises to Keep: a novel set in 19th Century New Zealand.
The Passing of Mistress Rose
Do we find happiness so often that we should turn it off the box when it happens to sit there?
- A Room With a View
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N.E. Brigand
Gondolin
Oct 28 2007, 5:45am
Post #22 of 38
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"I was looking forward to your help."
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What help was Gandalf going to give Frodo in the week following the party?
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SilentLion
Ossiriand
Oct 28 2007, 3:14pm
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Mainly the comfort of his company
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At least that's my sense. Frodo's losing an uncle and surrogate father with Bilbo's departure. Gandalf is a bit of a substitute for that, especially since Gandalf was high in Bilbo's confidence. Gandalf might also have the best idea about where Bilbo is going and what he is doing, and might be able to provide some reasurance that Bilbo will be safe and well. Even a hobbit who was unaware of more sinister dangers might fear that a old hobbit wandering alone in the wilderness might be attacked by wolves or bandits, fall off a cliff, or be overcome in a rapid stream. Gandalf seems confident that Bilbo's fate will be none of those things, so hearing some more words of reassurance from Gandalf might be comforting to Frodo.
Although Frodo knows more about outside world than most hobbits, I don't think he really has much clue yet about the nature of Gandalf's larger role in the world. If Gandalf stayed, Frodo would probably put him to work with Pippen and Merry sorting through Bilbo's remaining belongs, asking their opinions on what to give away, and what to loan to the museum at Michel Delving, while pausing frequently for tea time and smoking breaks. It's a testament to Gandalf's humility that he probably would have enjoyed nothing better in the world than to oblige Frodo, if his schedule and events in the wide world would allow it.
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SilentLion
Ossiriand
Oct 28 2007, 3:38pm
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Interesting discussion about the Gaffer expertise in "roots"
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It's especially interesting since the other hobbit we know who was interested in discovering the "roots" of things is Smeagol/Gollum.
Another link to the Smeagol story in this discussion is Drogo and Primula Baggins' boating accident in the Baranduin. All present in the discussion agree that boating is "unnatural" and the source of trouble. The story of Primula pushing Drogo and Drogo pulling Primula after her may have been malicious rumour, but it strikes some familiar chords with the story of Deagol being pulled overboard from a boat in Anduin to find the ring, Smeagol murdering Deagol for the ring, and Smeagol himself eventually being destroyed by the Ring.
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a.s.
Doriath
Oct 28 2007, 5:14pm
Post #25 of 38
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well, they recognize "book" and "page" as metaphor
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In fact Gondor does have books, as we are told explicitly at least twice (remember where?). But they are always mentioned in a context that puts them in a continuum with those hoary scrolls and manuscripts, in the archives of the City, as mere records
I don't know where we are told explicitly that Gondor has books, prior to Findegil's copy (please let me know!).
However, it's interesting that Pippin, in discussing Mithrandir with Beregond, says: "But there is much to read in that book, and I cannot claim to have seen more than a page or two". And since Beregond apparently understands this reference and isn't puzzled by it, I'd take that to mean it's a common metaphor, understood by both hobbits and Men of Gondor.
Also, another look at books and hobbits is contained in a reference in Appendix F, II: On Translation, where Tolkien says: "It will be noticed that Hobbits such as Frodo, and other persons such as Gandalf and Aragorn, do not always use the same style. This is intentional. The more learned and able among the Hobbits had some knowledge of 'book-language', as it was termed in the Shire".
There had to have been some books and some study of books in the Shire for them to use this kind of metaphor.
a.s.
"an seileachan"
"Nothing that is worth doing can be achieved in our lifetime; therefore we must be saved by hope. Nothing which is true or beautiful or good makes complete sense in any immediate context of history; therefore we must be saved by faith. Nothing we do, however virtuous, can be accomplished alone; therefore we must be saved by love."
~~~Reinhold Niebuhr
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