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Shelob'sAppetite
Valinor
Sep 4 2012, 5:56pm
Post #1 of 247
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End of Film 1 Changed - SPOILERS
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TOR.com's recent spoilerific piece on Hobbit revelations from DragonCon contained one very interesting piece of speculation by the panelists of where film 1 might end, which has been overlooked in a recent thread. Basically, they seemed to suggest that film 1 will feature the Great Goblin as the main bad guy, and that it would all end with the eagle rescue. Here's the snippet:
POSSIBLE SPOILERS AHEAD: This was entirely speculation on the part of the panel, but they believe An Unexpected Journey will now feature a lot of dwarf history and will follow Bilbo and the dwarves into the mountains, with the Great Goblin serving as a Big Bad for the first film. Bilbo will meet Gollum, then be pursued out of the caves and into the woods where they'll finally meet with Gandalf. As they're all cornered by orcs, goblins, and flame, the eagles will arrive to rescue them and the movie will end. With the next film obviohttp://newboards.theonering.net/forum/gforum/perl/gforum.cgi?do%3Dpost_write%3Bforum%3D17=Post+Newusly focusing on Smaug. SPOILERS END.
Interestingly, due to my amazing powers of observation and foresight, I have been speculating for a while now, contrary to the prevailing wisdom, that this may indeed be the way film 1 will end, and that all the merchandise which is showing us Thranduil and Legolas, etc., are products of the "two film" days that simply cannot be reversed. But aside from my magical powers aiding me here, I have heard from one reliable source close to the production that this is, indeed, the likely cut-off. Here's what I said on August 13:
I really think that film 1 is going to end earlier than most people here expect.
My guess is that it will end with the eagle-assisted escape from the goblins and wargs. This provides for a powerful climax and ending.
The Goblin King is dead, Bilbo spars with Gollum, Bilbo acquires the Ring and escapes Goblin Town, the company is assailed by goblins and wargs intent on revenge, and the eagles arrive to fly the company away to safety, with Mirkwood on the horizon, and the Lonely Mountain far, far away in the blue distance.
and:
There's lots in there. I can see dwarven history, the Shire scenes, the trollshaws, initial run in with Radagast, Rivendell, the White Council meeting, the trek to the Misty Mountains, the stone giant sequence, an extended Goblin town sequence where we meet the main villains of film one, a prolonged "death of the Great Goblin" scene, Riddles in the Dark, an extended sequence of Bilbo escaping from Goblin Town, the aftermath of his escape and return to the dwarf company (he does have to find Gandalf and the dwarves, after all), the pursuit by the wargs and goblins, the fiery standoff in the treetops, and the final dramatic rescue by the eagles (likely due to Radagast's assistance), as easily taking up two and a half hours of screentime, if not three.
The reason we think "there's not a lot there" is because we are used to thinking about how short the Hobbiton-to-Frying Pan Into the Fire segment is in the book. But in terms of actual substance, a whole lot actually happens, and PJ added Dol Guldur stuff will fill that out even more.
I am quite convinced that film 1 will end with the eagle rescue.
What say you all?
(This post was edited by Shelob'sAppetite on Sep 4 2012, 5:56pm)
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DanielLB
Immortal
Sep 4 2012, 6:01pm
Post #2 of 247
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An Unexpected Journey should end somewhere in Mirkwood.
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Faenoriel
Tol Eressea
Sep 4 2012, 6:01pm
Post #3 of 247
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There has to be a LOT of Dwarven history to make up for that
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If we won't get to see at least Beorn and preferably also Mirkwood in film 1 I will be very, very, very dissapointed. No joking.
Besides, if we won't get past the Misty Mountains then we won't get past lands already discovered during LotR. It'll feel repetitive at least to the signed.
But every word you say today
Gets twisted 'round some other way
And they'll hurt you if they think you've lied
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Faenoriel
Tol Eressea
Sep 4 2012, 6:03pm
Post #4 of 247
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Besides, the Great Goblin doesn't have enough Big Bad charisma when compared to Smaug and Necromancer (and Saruman and Sauron.)
But every word you say today
Gets twisted 'round some other way
And they'll hurt you if they think you've lied
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Ardamírë
Valinor
Sep 4 2012, 6:06pm
Post #5 of 247
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I, personally, don't want the film to end any time before the spiders. And I still think it's likely to end even later than that, with the barrel escape.
However, I also see how the eagle rescue could end the film. It's all speculation at this point. And truth be told, I'd rather not know until the credits start to roll. 
"...and his first memory of Middle-earth was the green stone above her breast, as she sang above his cradle while Gondolin was still in flower."
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DanielLB
Immortal
Sep 4 2012, 6:09pm
Post #6 of 247
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Goblin town is the equivalent to the Moria scenes in The Fellowship of the Ring
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I'd be disappointed too if it ended there!
Beorn's is the equivalent of Lothlorien.
Mirkwood is the equivalent of Amon Hen.
An Unexpected Journey shouldn't end before Mirkwood.
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Delrond
Rohan
Sep 4 2012, 6:09pm
Post #7 of 247
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The main page of TORn has a story where it mentions Persbrandt is credited in being in all three films. I suppose this could be incorrect....
A few harmless flakes working together can unleash an avalanche of destruction.
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Kangi Ska
Half-elven
Sep 4 2012, 6:11pm
Post #8 of 247
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I too believe that this would make The Unexpected Journey far too short
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and would load up the last two movies with too much distance to cover.
Kangi Ska Resident Trickster & Wicked White Crebain
Life is an adventure, not a contest.
At night you can not tell if crows are black or white.
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Fardragon
Rohan
Sep 4 2012, 6:13pm
Post #9 of 247
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Book and toy companies have put huge amounts of money into creating products including events up to the Barrel Escape.
The cost of the law suits that would result from not including it would be astronomical.
The only things cut from the first film will be from the Dol Guldur subplot.
A Far Dragon is the best kind...
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Kangi Ska
Half-elven
Sep 4 2012, 6:18pm
Post #10 of 247
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Kangi Ska Resident Trickster & Wicked White Crebain
Life is an adventure, not a contest.
At night you can not tell if crows are black or white.
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Spaldron
Rivendell
Sep 4 2012, 6:21pm
Post #11 of 247
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Well I've said here and elsewhere before...
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... that I think AUJ will end as they enter Mirkwood but it could be earlier I suppose although I don't think likely.
"A single dream is more powerful than a thousand realities."
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Faenoriel
Tol Eressea
Sep 4 2012, 6:22pm
Post #12 of 247
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Even when we dissagree with some theory, shall we not shoot them down with quite this harsh words? I'm sure you didn't mean any harm, but some us (like me) are very sensitive and to have my theory being called "rubbish" would feel bad. Thank you for understanding!
But every word you say today
Gets twisted 'round some other way
And they'll hurt you if they think you've lied
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dormouse
Half-elven
Sep 4 2012, 6:25pm
Post #13 of 247
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Sounds pretty unlikely to me....
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I think it leaves too much still to be done and makes for a rather messy end to film 1 - and an awkward beginning to the next film. On your version there would be an awful lot of story to get through before they reach the Desolation of Smaug, or anything to do with him.
But if you're right, you'll have all the satisfaction of saying 'I told you so'! 
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GoodGuyA
Lorien
Sep 4 2012, 6:25pm
Post #14 of 247
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My biggest concern is that DoS will become "TTT"
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Two Towers didn't work right for a lot of reasons. One that my editing friends like to bring up a lot is that the intro to Rohan is far too late in the film. This might become the same situation with Laketown, if they go by this route. My thought is that a prologue about Dale's destruction will be at the front end of the film, just like the Rohan prologue. Then, an hour into the movie, we finally get there. It's not exactly a great way to introduce your primary allies for the rest of the story, certainly. That's why I was hoping that they would start off in Laketown, thus giving us ample time to care deeply about who is on our side. Laketown culture is also far less distinctive than the Rohirrim, so they might even fade quickly from the audience mind.
I mean, if you could literally just split the book that would be great (since Eagles are here near page 100), but pacing has always been an issue. I don't know if the Wargs is a large enough conflict to lead off on, then Beorn being the first new character in the movie? He disappears for a long while, thus making his primary placement very misleading. I'm wary, to say the least.
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dave_lf
Gondor
Sep 4 2012, 6:27pm
Post #15 of 247
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If they do end that early, I don't think the eagle rescue is the right moment. Rather, finish up right after Bilbo escapes the mountains and rejoins the dwarves (perhaps with the focus on the ring and his strange reluctance to talk about it), and save the warg hunt for the start of #2.
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sycorax82
Rohan
Sep 4 2012, 6:32pm
Post #16 of 247
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I'm sure Goblin Town will happen around 1hr into TUJ...
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That whole sequence could last 30mins (very likely) and that still leaves an hour of movie left. No way is Peter gonna make TUJ less than 2hr30mins. So this means Beorn and Mirkwood have to be in, otherwise there's not much else to show.
If there are any flashbacks they will amount to 5mins I would say.
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dormouse
Half-elven
Sep 4 2012, 6:34pm
Post #17 of 247
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Sorry - but what Rohan prologue?
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Unless I'm going completely mad, doesn't Two Towers begin with Gandalf falling from the bridge and his fight with the Balrog?
I agree with you that Laketown should come early in film 2 of The Hobbit. Would seem odd to call it 'The Desolation of Smaug' if we have all of the journey to Mirkwood and then the journey through Mirkwood to get through before coming anywhere near Smaug - but I don't understand your point about Rohan.
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DanielLB
Immortal
Sep 4 2012, 6:34pm
Post #18 of 247
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They have to accomplish something in An Unexpected Journey
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Finishing the film as they leave the Mountains doesn't deserve it's own film. Neither does it justify having 2 more films. When it was a duology, it was going to end at the barrels. Why change it?
Since The Desolation of Smaug is likely to have the most additional filming next year, then An Unexpected Journey can remain the same.
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duats
Grey Havens
Sep 4 2012, 6:36pm
Post #19 of 247
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Not without some serious revisions, anyway.
Bilbo and company being chased through the forest by goblins/warfare, forced up a couple of trees, and then rescued by the eagles would serve as a very underwhelming climax.
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GoodGuyA
Lorien
Sep 4 2012, 6:36pm
Post #20 of 247
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I count that as a prologue, since it happens before the story begins (presumably). All the stuff with Saruman, the orcs, etc. after "THEY'RE TAKING THE HOBBITS TO ISENGARD!"
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dormouse
Half-elven
Sep 4 2012, 6:41pm
Post #21 of 247
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I've never thought of that as a prologue because it isn't at the beginning of the film.
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Escapist
Gondor
Sep 4 2012, 6:49pm
Post #22 of 247
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I think that the great goblin could happen after 1 hour
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if the stay in Rivendell is short (remember, this is a likely WC meeting, discussion of the map and key, and knows what else because Rivendell is a place of great memory and coordination of many peoples in the efforts of the good-guys)
and the framing device is minimized (this could be a significant part like it was in The Princess Bride) and / or the dwarf characterization is not fleshed out much (I'd like to see their characters come out and become differentiated, myself - it will bring more punch to all the rest of the film)
And then after the great goblin (which could take 30 minutes including the journey to the goblin city, the goblin city, and leaving the goblin city), there would still be
Riddles in the dark
escaping the Mountain / Bilbo explaining himself
a battle with wargs
a rescue by eagles
which could all come in pretty close to an hour - probably closer to 40 or 50 minutes (depending on how much the battle and Bilbo's escape get drawn out - this could be over an hour of some of these glossed-over moments in the book get fleshed out more)
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Escapist
Gondor
Sep 4 2012, 7:00pm
Post #23 of 247
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I think this kind of comparison does make a lot of sense!
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Then the trolls would be like the battle at Weathertop
The introduction of the dwarves and arrangements for the whole thing would be like Bilbo's party
Any background and arrangements made between Bilbo and the dwarves would be like The Shadow of the Past
A short framing device can be like Bree (at least in terms of screen time)
... and the wargs and eagle escape can get cut in The Hobbit just like they got cut outside of Moria
... and a more detailed characterization of the dwarves can get passed-on in favor of emphasizing a few main characters like skipping the Conspiracy chapter downplayed the other hobbit roles a bit
... and who wants to spend time on all those silly songs anyway? There's another 15 that can get cut - or maybe just pick the best one and it can be like the Lay of Luthien sung by Aragorn in LOTR.
... and we can skip any of the stories that may have been heard by Bilbo in Rivendell just as easily as we skipped seeing the Mirrormere and its story in FOTR
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mandel
Rivendell
Sep 4 2012, 7:05pm
Post #24 of 247
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I personally predict that film 1 will end with the spider battle - Bilbo coming into his own - followed by the realization that Thorin is missing, and perhaps with Thorin's imprisonment by Thranduil. This has two advantages: (1) like FOTR, we can have a big climax with an emotional payoff for the main character, yet (2) again like FOTR, we see the company torn apart and left exhausted and uncertain.
(This post was edited by mandel on Sep 4 2012, 7:06pm)
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Istaris'staffs
Rivendell
Sep 4 2012, 7:08pm
Post #25 of 247
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I think many are over-estimating the amount of flashback material we're going to get in film one. As such, ending there would not be very good. Too short. It has to be somewhere in Mirkwood, and I'm betting on the barrel sequence. It's too perfect an ending.
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