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The One Ring Forums: Tolkien Topics: Movie Discussion: The Hobbit:
Critique of The Hobbit trilogy in today's Guardian.
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geordie
Tol Eressea

Sep 3 2012, 5:25pm

Post #26 of 98 (895 views)
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This is possibly true - [In reply to] Can't Post

- I've always thought of this as a pJ fan-site. That may be just me, though. Smile

.


Otaku-sempai
Half-elven


Sep 3 2012, 5:26pm

Post #27 of 98 (920 views)
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Well, Rankin/Bass isn't a 'he', it's a 'they'... [In reply to] Can't Post

And, yes, the animated Hobbit is extremely rushed. Nonetheless, I contend that one would not even need a three-hour film to adapt The Hobbit--a satisfactory adaptation could probably come in under two hours. That is why I was initially very skeptical about a Hobbit trilogy. Now I see how it might work, but I still have doubts about the final product.

'Thus spake Ioreth, wise-woman of Gondor: The hands of the king are the hands of a healer, and so shall the rightful king be known.' - Gandalf the White


geordie
Tol Eressea

Sep 3 2012, 5:33pm

Post #28 of 98 (862 views)
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Yes, I was irked by that - [In reply to] Can't Post

"Tolkien seems to have created the idealised past of Middle Earth in order to escape a confusing present."

What books has this bloke been reading? Tongue

.


Bombadil
Half-elven


Sep 3 2012, 5:40pm

Post #29 of 98 (832 views)
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We had cinema Critic here that was Such a waste of time [In reply to] Can't Post

two thirds or more of his so-called Review
was telling the readers
the Plot in his Own words.
Then would make comparations to other films proving over&over
Again his credibility ..which was so self-serving ..

Luckily I got in to an advanced screening once
and they
brought him on stage prior to the screening like he
was " The God of all Cinema critics"
..to only mild applause
And some Boos from the audience?

AFTER the showing I went up to him thrush out my hand
but jerked it away..and Told what an Ass he had been proving to everyone for years.
Bomby


JWPlatt
Grey Havens


Sep 3 2012, 5:49pm

Post #30 of 98 (908 views)
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Fan v Groupie [In reply to] Can't Post

You see it as a truism. I prefer to make a distinction between a "fan" site that can be realistic and objective despite its devotion to a particular realm of interest and a "groupie" site where the object of its affection can do no wrong. I've seen more recent strides along the lines of a balanced fan site here than in the past. I hope they keep it up, but the forums are a bit more collectively extreme in their range. Once you get past a few thousand people, it's less of a book club and more of a convention so you cannot expect a "like-minded community" who only accept agreeable things. I don't, for example, see the self-imposed, gated segregation of those who won't visit this Hobbit forum as a positive thing.


geordie
Tol Eressea

Sep 3 2012, 6:16pm

Post #31 of 98 (810 views)
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I don't disagree with this. // [In reply to] Can't Post

 


TomthePilgrim
Rohan


Sep 3 2012, 6:32pm

Post #32 of 98 (819 views)
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Sorry . . . can't agree. [In reply to] Can't Post

I agree that Rankin/Bass version was not a satisfactory rendition . . . but I have it and watch it because it is what we have.
and it does have it's charms . . . some sections are done very well . . . and John Huston as Gandalf was perfect! Smile

However (my opinion only) to make a film that is satisfactory to me would take all of three hours. However, if they're going to spend hundreds of millions of dollars on the project, well then . . . satisfactory ain't good enough!

A two-film rendition devoted ENITRELY to the Hobbit might seem overkill, but I imagine it would include just about everything, and that would be about right.
And . . . as PJ is harvesting material from the LOTR appendices to fill in those pesky gaps and connect it to the 'his' LOTR . . .
. . . three films is a must.
besides, we'll have more material to choose from for a condensed version . . . Laugh


The Road goes ever on and on
Down from the door where it began
Now far ahead the Road has gone
And I must follow, if I can

"Thorin sat up with a start. 'Something is not right,' he muttered to himself as he stood up and
looked towards the mirror . . . . . . . . . 'Durin's bones', he gasped, 'what's happened to my beard?'"


mandel
Rivendell


Sep 3 2012, 6:33pm

Post #33 of 98 (834 views)
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People like this don't deserve the title 'critic' [In reply to] Can't Post

Criticism (film, literature, art) is a valuable thing. But the whole notion of criticism has degraded into a medium in which self-styled experts find clever and snarky ways to deliver their undefended opinions about things. In this case, we have the worst example of this sort of thing: someone opining about films that no one (including its creators) has seen because they don't exist yet - they're still in the 'drafting' process.

I'm of the opinion that the best critics write about things they love, and help us understand how they work, and appreciate why they're worth paying attention to. This is what Tolkien himself did: through laborious, dedicated research, he studied texts that were and remain highly unfashionable among the literati - early medieval northern European literature. He thought long and hard about these texts, doing careful linguistic analysis to uncover aspects of them that were buried under long centuries of neglect and linguistic change, and tried his whole life to articulate what it was in them that he found so moving and profound.

Real criticism of this sort is damn hard work. Luxuriating at your keyboard finding clever ways to mock and insult others is hack work.


(This post was edited by mandel on Sep 3 2012, 6:35pm)


Escapist
Gondor

Sep 3 2012, 6:35pm

Post #34 of 98 (770 views)
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I have no interest to choose to spend any time reading the article. [In reply to] Can't Post

The original post was all I needed to read to make this decision.

"It's hard to see how making The Hobbit could be considered a positive step for Jackson. However, splitting the story into three separate films takes the moribund self-absorption of the project to entirely new levels. It looks as if Jackson is running entirely on empty, pushing this side project to ridiculous extremes because he has nothing else to offer."

This statement is an attack on the director and not a critique of a movie and it is based in assumptions and not grounded in anything outside of a single fact: The Hobbit as three films. This fact alone is no basis for any of these kinds of statements. It sounds like a lot of personal opinions, personally directed comments, and baseless statements.

Nothing about this article is interesting to me, sorry. I have better things to do than reading things like this! I don't think that it has anything to do with groupies or fanbois its really just that the original post started with a baseless personally directed remark about a director in an article that is supposed to be about a movie that the author of the article hasn't even seen yet.

Seriously?
Dismissed ...
Next


Otaku-sempai
Half-elven


Sep 3 2012, 6:40pm

Post #35 of 98 (781 views)
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You are certainly welcome to your own opinion [In reply to] Can't Post

And many here share your opinion. Notice that I wasn't objecting to the two-part (now three-part) adaptation, just stating that less can also work. A one-film adaptation of The Hobbit would probably have to keep its focus on the more child-like aspects of the story and might end up with a U.S. rating of 'G' or 'PG', so a three-hour version might be too long for a younger audience.

'Thus spake Ioreth, wise-woman of Gondor: The hands of the king are the hands of a healer, and so shall the rightful king be known.' - Gandalf the White


Dlanor da Great
Rivendell

Sep 3 2012, 6:50pm

Post #36 of 98 (753 views)
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One short book does not nessecarily interpret as one short movie.... [In reply to] Can't Post

The argument that the book is too short to be made into 3 films is ridiculous.
The book is short because of its own fault. It leaves much to be desired in the way of explanation.
What I mean is that it does not fill out alot of background information until Tolkien writes ANOTHER book that included the appendices.
It has so many characters but says little about most of them.
It has TWO climaxes (Smaug and 5 armies) that are very quickly written in the book.
Gandalfs disappearances are never explained.
These are examples of why the book is so short. Not because it is a quick story. But because it is'nt very in-depth of the events that are taking place ,which is a fault.
Even the short animated movie of 1977 proves that you cannot fit alot in the movie if you stick to just one movie.
Even Tolkien wanted to expand on the story. So obviously, even he felt something was missing.
The book maybe short but the full length audio version is about 11 hours long.
So my point is, how do you make a good character driven movie with so much to be explained, has so many characters , and more than 1 climax, in 2 hours???


TomthePilgrim
Rohan


Sep 3 2012, 6:52pm

Post #37 of 98 (760 views)
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Not a problem . . . [In reply to] Can't Post

. . . I was just saying that, for me, such a short version would not be satisfactory.

The Hobbit was my first glimpse of Tolkien. It is one of my . . . hmmm . . . probably three favorite novels. I didn't read the LOTR until high school, and I loved it, but it still does not hold the place in my heart that the Hobbit holds.
So, if they are going to turn it into a film (or two or three Wink), and if they are gonna spend the money they are spending . . . well then, I want everything in the film that I love from the novel. And, for me, that is nearly EVERYTHING. And I truly believe that even a three hour movie could not include everything without cuts that would be, well, honestly, unsetting to me.


The Road goes ever on and on
Down from the door where it began
Now far ahead the Road has gone
And I must follow, if I can

"Thorin sat up with a start. 'Something is not right,' he muttered to himself as he stood up and
looked towards the mirror . . . . . . . . . 'Durin's bones', he gasped, 'what's happened to my beard?'"


sharpened_graphite
Rivendell

Sep 3 2012, 7:26pm

Post #38 of 98 (740 views)
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Actually, he did! [In reply to] Can't Post

Tolkien started writing a sequel to "The Lord of the Rings" entitled "The New Shadow", a story that happens in Gondor some hundred years after Sauron's defeat and deals with an uprising of a Sauronic cult among Gondor's population. He didn't actually go on to finish it, but it was supposed to be exactly that, a crime-thriller in an urban environment. You can read the opening chapters in the twelfth volume of The History of Middle-Earth ("The Peoples of Middle Earth").


Buchanicus
Lorien


Sep 3 2012, 7:37pm

Post #39 of 98 (705 views)
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Totally. [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
It's not its length that makes it three movies, it's its structure.


TORn member formally known as ryan1976.

(This post was edited by Buchanicus on Sep 3 2012, 7:38pm)


SirDennisC
Half-elven


Sep 3 2012, 7:40pm

Post #40 of 98 (702 views)
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A target of convenience [In reply to] Can't Post

The blogger has given us a snapshot of what is wrong in the industry of late, but personified it; many of the criticisms belong to more than just PJ (and I'm not sure PJ owns many of them himself). The author's worst crime is using the Hobbit's popularity to make (what should have been) some general comments that likely would have been missed.

The comment about Tolkien in particular, is as confusing as it is unfounded.

(This post was edited by SirDennisC on 0 secs ago)


Lacrimae Rerum
Grey Havens

Sep 3 2012, 7:44pm

Post #41 of 98 (689 views)
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Haha [In reply to] Can't Post

Well I'm not quite sure I think of it in that light! But perhaps I should have gone for mummy porn just to be sure.

LR


Noria
Rohan

Sep 3 2012, 7:46pm

Post #42 of 98 (737 views)
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Waste of time [In reply to] Can't Post

If this piece had been published after the three movies had been released, or even after AUJ was out, it might be worth reading and considering. For all we know this guy is right, though I really doubt it. But at this point in time the article is just malicious speculation based on nothing and I just wasted a couple of minutes if my life reading it.


Silverlode
Forum Admin / Moderator


Sep 3 2012, 8:01pm

Post #43 of 98 (718 views)
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JWPlatt [In reply to] Can't Post

Everyone else here is talking about an article. You are talking about everyone else. Discuss issues instead of personalities, please. Read the article and comment on it, instead of making judgments and assumptions about people based on their response to something you haven't even read.

If you have not read the recent Admin Announcement, please do.

Silverlode

"Of all faces those of our familiares are the ones both most difficult to play fantastic tricks with, and most difficult really to see with fresh attention. They have become like the things which once attracted us by their glitter, or their colour, or their shape, and we laid hands on them, and then locked them in our hoard, acquired them, and acquiring ceased to look at them.
Creative fantasy, because it is mainly trying to do something else [make something new], may open your hoard and let all the locked things fly away like cage-birds. The gems all turn into flowers or flames, and you will be warned that all you had (or knew) was dangerous and potent, not really effectively chained, free and wild; no more yours than they were you."
-On Fairy Stories


geordie
Tol Eressea

Sep 3 2012, 8:05pm

Post #44 of 98 (739 views)
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I heard 'The New Shadow' - [In reply to] Can't Post

- read by Christopher Tolkien at the Sheldonian Theatre in Oxford in August 1992 during the Tolkien Centenary Conference. I remember the complete silence of the audience, and my _trying to remember it all_.

Christopher reads very well.
.


Ardamírë
Valinor


Sep 3 2012, 8:13pm

Post #45 of 98 (651 views)
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How exciting! [In reply to] Can't Post

That must have been quite an experience Smile

"...and his first memory of Middle-earth was the green stone above her breast, as she sang above his cradle while Gondolin was still in flower."


Silverlode
Forum Admin / Moderator


Sep 3 2012, 8:13pm

Post #46 of 98 (666 views)
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Pure speculation [In reply to] Can't Post

and personal opinion, based on nothing in particular. He even admits a couple of times along the way that he might like the end result. In fact, it reads very much like many fan rants being posted all over the net. "NNNNOOOOOOO!!!!! IT'S RUINED!!!!!!!......But I might like it after all."

I guess we will all just have to wait and see. Laugh


Quote
I'm not sure I agree this will be a total bust: I generally like my blockbusters slow and introspective, so this change may work for me as a viewer.


Silverlode

"Of all faces those of our familiares are the ones both most difficult to play fantastic tricks with, and most difficult really to see with fresh attention. They have become like the things which once attracted us by their glitter, or their colour, or their shape, and we laid hands on them, and then locked them in our hoard, acquired them, and acquiring ceased to look at them.
Creative fantasy, because it is mainly trying to do something else [make something new], may open your hoard and let all the locked things fly away like cage-birds. The gems all turn into flowers or flames, and you will be warned that all you had (or knew) was dangerous and potent, not really effectively chained, free and wild; no more yours than they were you."
-On Fairy Stories


Patty
Immortal


Sep 3 2012, 8:21pm

Post #47 of 98 (646 views)
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Perfect post./ [In reply to] Can't Post

 

Permanent address: Into the West






Shelob'sAppetite
Valinor

Sep 3 2012, 8:29pm

Post #48 of 98 (811 views)
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Though I don't agree with the author's general point [In reply to] Can't Post

The article is a lot less harsh than is being communicated here. Here is just one example:

Quote

I'm not sure I agree this will be a total bust: I generally like my blockbusters slow and introspective, so this change may work for me as a viewer.


This is, in fact, one of the reasons I am looking forward to a three-film series.


(This post was edited by Shelob'sAppetite on Sep 3 2012, 8:31pm)


Escapist
Gondor

Sep 3 2012, 8:46pm

Post #49 of 98 (644 views)
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I'm glad to hear that it wasn't all as negative sounding as the excerpt in the original post. [In reply to] Can't Post

But, when deciding to read an entire article, if given an excerpt like what was selected, my usual reaction would be one of disinterest.
It is a little bit like deciding whether or not to read a journal article based on the abstract.
And it wasn't just one single comment out of context either, it was several sentences of a sort that I don't generally take time to read.

But we shall see if I change my mind - I just don't like that kind of negativity - it is on a different level than simple disinterest, those comments from the article came off as pretty sharply negative ... even a little cruel! Among the sentences presented, there was one detail about the artistic material and decisions and a boatload of really loaded personal attacks - not even constructive criticism or concern - just personal character statements. No more please, I have already had enough, thank you.

I stand by my statement of disinterest ... I try to keep that stuff to a minimum in life - and where it becomes necessary - I latch onto the life-preserver called "just the facts ma'am" rather than scathing and provocative stuff that is more about a person's reaction to another person than anything that person actually ever did or said to anyone. I have such a low interest in such things ...


Istaris'staffs
Rivendell


Sep 3 2012, 9:44pm

Post #50 of 98 (576 views)
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His argument doesn't make sense to me. [In reply to] Can't Post

He's connecting oddly the fact that Jackson hasn't directed in a while to...The Hobbit being a failure? I don't get it. Plus I don't see how adapting a prequel of the same franchise you built makes you non creative.

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