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The One Ring Forums: Tolkien Topics: Movie Discussion: The Lord of the Rings:
Lotr the sequel and pick ups

Mr. Arkenstone (isaac)
Grey Havens


Aug 28 2012, 10:50am

Post #1 of 23 (1056 views)
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Lotr the sequel and pick ups Can't Post

I was watching FOTR yesterday and I tried to have in mind all the time, what we have seen, and know of The Hobbit movies at the moment. The entire movie grows with this background, and I feel that the trilogy is gonna be improved by Hobbit movies. Perhaps theyīll became best sequel ever! Even a better sequel than The Godfather IITongue

LOTR is, but is gonna be more awesome with all that background, I hope they donīt get worse compared to the new ones...Crazy

Also I have a feeling that PJ wonīt let go the chance to shoot some new pick ups to assemble a better imaginery of all 6 films, just toughts...

Cheers


DanielLB
Immortal


Aug 28 2012, 11:09am

Post #2 of 23 (524 views)
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Yes! Why not? [In reply to] Can't Post

I think he should go for it! Film extra scenes that were missed out (Bombadil being the most obvious) and the correct some of things they messed up (such as Denethor). People can compare it all they like to the original Star Wars films, but I would be more than happy if they decided to go back and re-edit, change, add (etc). scenes.


Mr. Arkenstone (isaac)
Grey Havens


Aug 28 2012, 11:15am

Post #3 of 23 (554 views)
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I donīt like Star Wars comparissions but... [In reply to] Can't Post

I think in LOTR pick ups, reedits and all that are more than justified, and if Lucas did it, I feel PJ has thought about it.

Yes, I didnīt understand why they didnīt explain Denethor motivations with the Palantir, it was simple but...

And Sarumanīs : Something festess in heart of Middle.earth, something that you have failed to see...

And then they dindīt show up that he was refering to Denethorīs madness, bad choice for me, very bad

And of course, Scouring of the shire, maybe PJ could redeem himself and Tolkien state would be more happier and let him do Silmarillion, who knows...


GoodGuyA
Lorien

Aug 28 2012, 3:10pm

Post #4 of 23 (543 views)
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NO BOMBADIL [In reply to] Can't Post

ADSJFIAEOKFDALJRWADKAPDSKAS

Anyways, you can't change a fundamental core of the story like that. For one, I don't think John Noble would like to be told that he was going grossly over the top and has to redo it, nor do I think Peter would like to change that vision he had for Denethor. Also it's just a ridiculous undertaking that a studio would simply not get behind. Lucas was able to do that stuff because it was just reintegrating scenes and visual effects. This would require scheduling half a dozen actors at a time... For no real extra studio money.

In terms of re-editing though, I'd be all in for that. I'd like to see what PJ would change if he went back to the trilogy. He mentioned in TTT commentary that he might like to edit the trilogy into a miniseries, like the Godfather trilogy, and I think that would be awesome. Perhaps less suited to a TV format that way, but it could be a realy neat experiment that would allow him to return to Middle-Earth at lower cost (though I'd imagine they'd at least need to rescore it).


DanielLB
Immortal


Aug 28 2012, 3:28pm

Post #5 of 23 (559 views)
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What's this in English? [In reply to] Can't Post


Quote
ADSJFIAEOKFDALJRWADKAPDSKAS


Tongue

I agree that adding such scenes would fundamentally change the heart of the films. Though I would like things to be added in, I think it's unrealistic anyway. PJ will want to leave Middle-earth forever, I feel. I wouldn't mind DVD extra's though.

Sort of like, "Meanwhile ... in Middle-earth", showing The Hobbits meeting Bombadil, Ghan, Quickbeam, Siege of Lorien etc etc. That would be nice.


Shelob'sAppetite
Valinor

Aug 28 2012, 11:03pm

Post #6 of 23 (450 views)
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Agreed [In reply to] Can't Post

Though it is a crying shame that that was PJ's vision for Denethor! Just awful, IMO.


kzer_za
Rivendell

Aug 28 2012, 11:22pm

Post #7 of 23 (476 views)
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Denethor's death as in the books would have made great cinema [In reply to] Can't Post

Imagine him being engulfed in flames and screaming as he clings to the palantir flaring in his hands. Could have been really scary and one of the trilogy's iconic moments, and you'd think it would have been right up PJ's alley with his horror roots. Denethor is definitely my least favorite part of the movies. I've only ever seen one person defend him, and I think he was playing devil's advocate.


(This post was edited by kzer_za on Aug 28 2012, 11:31pm)


GoodGuyA
Lorien

Aug 29 2012, 12:31am

Post #8 of 23 (486 views)
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It was just a dramatic misstep [In reply to] Can't Post

I find him easy to overlook, though. Pippin's story really isn't that interesting, in the end. Were Gandalf not there, we wouldn't pay much attention at all! I don't particularly find Denethor to be that strong a character in the books, and certainly not very memorable out of the lot, but PJ just ran about six miles in the wrong direction with the character! I have a feeling that the "condensing" of his character might have been a carry over from the two film script. They had such a great amount of time to expound upon the workings of the palantir, introducing it in Film 1 and using it throughout Film 2, yet only as a quickly disappearing plot point and easily misunderstood extended scene in Film 3. I would have certainly cared a lot more for Denethor's character if I realized he was being affected like Saruman. Establishing even a small connection about that would have done a lot, since we are led to believe (and will see, in The Hobbit) that Saruman is actually a good wizard inside.


Shelob'sAppetite
Valinor

Aug 29 2012, 12:42am

Post #9 of 23 (465 views)
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The problem was not the lack of a Palantir connection [In reply to] Can't Post

As his descent into despair could have also been explained as just that - an overly-realist sense of despair in the face of overwhelming forces. The problem was simply the extreme lack of subtlety with which he was portrayed.

As for memorable in the books - for me, Denethor was the second-most memorable character from ROTK. First is Ioreth. Smile


Elessar
Valinor


Aug 29 2012, 12:43am

Post #10 of 23 (442 views)
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Death [In reply to] Can't Post

His death was a bit over the top but honestly I didn't mind how the character was done. Denethor was a jerk in the book and was so in the movies so I felt like he was done right as a whole.


Shelob'sAppetite
Valinor

Aug 29 2012, 12:47am

Post #11 of 23 (463 views)
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If only writing a book, or screenplay, or acting, were as simple as that [In reply to] Can't Post

Book: And it then happened that Denethor, Son of Ecthelion II, was a right jerk.

Screenplay: Enter Denethor. Acts like a jerk.

Acted out: "Behold, I am a jerk!"


Elessar
Valinor


Aug 29 2012, 12:49am

Post #12 of 23 (435 views)
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What can I say. [In reply to] Can't Post

How he was in the books and how pj treated the character worked for me. I can't speak for others so your mileage may vary. lol


GoodGuyA
Lorien

Aug 29 2012, 1:17am

Post #13 of 23 (461 views)
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I think at least they did well with the beacons [In reply to] Can't Post

I liked his denial in that regard, which tied into the whole Rohan/Gondor relationship. It helped his character stand out a bit and at least seem like a somewhat realized nobleman. I mean, until later in the scene, the audience doesn't actually know that Mordor is about to attack. The lighting of the beacons beforehand seems a bit hasty, especially when you meet him afterwards and realize that, lo, he is not hopeful regardless! I think the most unfortunate part of his character was the one scene he could have showed that, when the forces were advancing, Gandalf had to step in and knock him out for a bad (unintentionally comedic) segway. The camera movements around him were always really weird too. They used steadycam to, I guess, emphasize the power of his movements but it always just bled into the over-the-topness.

I think the only thing that could be added in an "expanded" LotR is snippets of the War in the North or Lorien. Perhaps he could snip those into TTT middle-of-the-movie prologue or RotK... Somewhere. I'm sure PJ wouldn't be adverse to cluttering RotK some more! Wink


Ruinwen
Rivendell


Aug 29 2012, 2:02am

Post #14 of 23 (423 views)
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Hah [In reply to] Can't Post

This made me laugh. You should write us some more literal script-bits, ShelobsA. Laugh

I didn't mind Denethor too much in the movies. It was different, it was a little OTT, it wasn't what I'd expected or hoped for, but I actually found John Noble's performance very enjoyable. Wonderfully dark and forbidding, with just enough compassion to make him believeable. Also he looked a little like Faramir - I really believed they could be related, and seeing the older, prouder, more hopeless version contrasted with David Wenham's young innocent was kind of captivating. I actually had more problem with Faramir's portrayal than Denethor's....but that's just me.

Anyway, you can add me to the list of movie-denethor defenders! Evil


(This post was edited by Ruinwen on Aug 29 2012, 2:03am)


Harold.of.Whoa
Rivendell


Aug 29 2012, 2:07am

Post #15 of 23 (434 views)
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You don't think there was any comedic intention... [In reply to] Can't Post

...associated with Gandalf's bonking of Denethor after he started yelling orders to abandon posts? I always thought it was a bit of dark humor.


GoodGuyA
Lorien

Aug 29 2012, 2:26am

Post #16 of 23 (453 views)
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Was it well placed, though? [In reply to] Can't Post

I can't particularly tell if it was meant to make me laugh or not, but should it have? I don't think so. The context of the work should not be making me take going to battle so lightly, and again, it undermined my respect for Denethor's plight (and Gandalf's wits!). There was no real reason for a laugh to be there. Imagine if Denethor had spit up his meal whilst Pippin was singing. Would that have been funny? I guess, but it completely overwrites the message being sent there and adds nothing to either character.


Avnar
Lorien

Aug 29 2012, 6:46am

Post #17 of 23 (393 views)
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Hi [In reply to] Can't Post

If you don't mind -would you be able to explain what Saruman meant be that? I have never really got that part (Something festers etc)

Thanks

Cool


DanielLB
Immortal


Aug 29 2012, 7:19am

Post #18 of 23 (397 views)
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I was expecting him to pull out the Palantir at any moment ... [In reply to] Can't Post

But he never did. I like to imagine that more happens off-screen that we like to see (or is hinted at). Denethor and the Palantir is just one example.


Mr. Arkenstone (isaac)
Grey Havens


Aug 29 2012, 9:30am

Post #19 of 23 (391 views)
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Well [In reply to] Can't Post

I think is festers, isnīt it? Iīm not english speaker so I usually miss a word or twoTongue Anyway, is the part on Rotk EE when they go to Orthanc and have this "friendly" chat with Saruman. In the director comments, PJ says something that they meant with that phrase to point out that Saruman was seeing Denethor via The Palantir, and he was aware of his corruption and that the withe city wouldnīt hold Mordorīs attack much longer


Shelob'sAppetite
Valinor

Aug 29 2012, 3:14pm

Post #20 of 23 (460 views)
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Comedic intention, perhaps [In reply to] Can't Post

But that is very different from comedic success. Wink


Solicitr
Lorien

Sep 8 2012, 5:51pm

Post #21 of 23 (290 views)
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You're assuming [In reply to] Can't Post

...that Jackson and his accomplices are capable of conceiving that their rewritings of Tolkien were often ill-conceived. Noble became a cartoon monster because Boyens wrote Denethor that way and Jackson directed him that way, being incapable of comprehending Tolkien's marvellous character, nor his relationship with his younger son.

Do you really think that people capable of "Go home, Sam" have the capacity to do any better?


geordie
Tol Eressea

Sep 8 2012, 7:38pm

Post #22 of 23 (261 views)
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Well said. // [In reply to] Can't Post

 


DanielLB
Immortal


Sep 8 2012, 9:39pm

Post #23 of 23 (438 views)
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But they're the same people that got many things just right [In reply to] Can't Post

I'm not saying PJ, the script, the writing, the production etc was perfect. But who knows, give them a pen and plenty of planning time, I reckon they could iron out their mistakes.

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