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The One Ring Forums: Tolkien Topics: Movie Discussion: The Hobbit:
Jackson comments on Del Toro's vision of The Hobbit
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Black Breathalizer
Rohan


Aug 26 2012, 12:07am

Post #126 of 216 (3800 views)
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nope [In reply to] Can't Post

sinister71 wrote: Tolkien meant both LOTR and the Hobbit to have their own feel.

If that were truly the case and not your imagination, there wouldn't have been continuous efforts by the author to bring The Hobbit more in line with his later work.


Sinister71
Tol Eressea


Aug 26 2012, 12:19am

Post #127 of 216 (3818 views)
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and Tolkien himself [In reply to] Can't Post

ABANDONED such a drastic rewrite claiming himself it took away the tone and charm of the Hobbit. the only added part of the rewwrite ever published in the Hobbit was Riddles in the dark.

hate to burst your bubble on that one. but its a well known fact. go ahead and look it up. almost every Tolkien scholar out there will tell you the same thing


elostirion74
Rohan

Aug 26 2012, 12:52am

Post #128 of 216 (3828 views)
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what aspects of continuity are you particularly concerned about between The Hobbit and LoTR? [In reply to] Can't Post

I´m curious because there are so many differences between the two works. As regards the books tne great majority of the characters that feature in The Hobbit don´t make an appearance in LoTR and vice versa. The majority of the places and settings they travel through or visit are not the same. The nature of the respective quests of the two stories are very different - Bilbo goes to find a treasure, while Frodo must get rid of one. The tone of the Hobbit is quite different, with considerably larger doses of humour and comedy, even if you remove the "talking down to children" elements and the more seemingly silly elements (tra-la-lally elves for instance).

I understand the need for some continuity to be observed, for instance the general look of Hobbiton and the landscape of the Shire as seen in LoTR, to have the same actor play Gandalf and Elrond and Gollum, but apart from that there are from my perspective not many continuity aspects to worry about in the first place.


Black Breathalizer
Rohan


Aug 26 2012, 1:49am

Post #129 of 216 (3846 views)
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the facts [In reply to] Can't Post

Sinister71 wrote: hate to burst your bubble on that one. but its a well known fact. go ahead and look it up. almost every Tolkien scholar out there will tell you the same thing

I am quite familiar with the facts. Are you? This notion that Tolkien was against rewriting his children's tale to reflect his tone in the LOTR ignores mountains of evidence to the contrary. Tolkien revised The Hobbit a number of times and attempted, late in life, to even retell the entire story in the tone of the LOTR. He abandoned the project only after a person he trusted with reviewing his work discouraged him by saying the effort was taking away the charm of his original story. Being talked out of a project is very different than being adamantly opposed to it from the start.


(This post was edited by Black Breathalizer on Aug 26 2012, 1:51am)


MouthofSauron
Tol Eressea


Aug 26 2012, 1:56am

Post #130 of 216 (3831 views)
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Del toro's exit was clearly stated by Del toro himself [In reply to] Can't Post

GDT could no longer stand the studio delaying the project because of financial reasons, it was delay after delay...Finally GDT moved on than it almost seemed intentional by the (powers that be) because just weeks after GDT left the hobbit PJ stepped up to direct.


From the bottom of the Long-Lake a dragon shall be possessed...green lights glowing out of the deep waters shall be seen where the dragon fell...reanimated shall be Smaug that was killed...and the Dark Lord will fly over Middle-Earth unopposed...raining fire down upon his enemies...


SirDennisC
Half-elven


Aug 26 2012, 2:21am

Post #131 of 216 (3807 views)
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This makes a great deal of sense [In reply to] Can't Post


Quote
although i have heard that PJ has said that he intends these new films to be viewed after LOTR's


I don't remember him having said that, but yeah, watching the two films out of order -- as sets, chronologically I mean -- would make the most sense I should think. Don't ask me why... call it a trick of the mind to overcome the change in technology between the two titles.

Story telling is like that sometimes. Think of the story of Jules and Vincent in Pulp Fiction. You may recall that the movie ends with the pair exiting a restaurant, very much alive in all their baddie glory. But we know, because we were shown what happens to Vincent at Butch's house earlier in the film, that the total story of Vincent ends on not so high a note.

But yeah as you imply, The Hobbit is being presented as told by Bilbo sometime during the time frame of LOTR. And now that I think about it, this might be a way, a device if you will, of accounting for the difference in tone between PJ's movie and Tolkien's book.

(This post was edited by SirDennisC on 0 secs ago)

(This post was edited by SirDennisC on Aug 26 2012, 2:22am)


Shelob'sAppetite
Valinor

Aug 26 2012, 2:40am

Post #132 of 216 (3817 views)
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At least in the United States [In reply to] Can't Post

Guillermo would be described as "Latin American," which is separated from "White" or "Caucasian." A "minority ethnic group," in official terms.

Make of that what you will, but I think Dennis was referring to the fact that his first language is not English.


AinurOlorin
Half-elven


Aug 26 2012, 2:42am

Post #133 of 216 (3851 views)
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Well that is interesting. . . especially on an island chain where the natives are dark indeed [In reply to] Can't Post

Aboriginally so. I wonder if they are as unwelcoming to the lighter hued immigrants to their native land.

That said, the issues over diversity in the films rises to mind again, with the old curiosities concerning varying degrees of attention to matters of gender vs. ethnicity. No need to get into it further here, as it would only spirial into a vicious cycle of shifting umbrage and oblivious defense, but it is an interesting observation.

In Reply To
I have my suspicions that Jackson decided he wanted to take over when The Lovely Bones didn't do the business he hoped it would.

Or maybe it was the 3D thing that pushed him to leave (actually this one is highly plausible given various comments made along the way).

Or maybe plans to use The Hobbit to market NZ tourism didn't sit right with him? (Personally I find it not very classy at all, Sir Ian Holm V/O notwithstanding.)

Or being even less charitable, and along the lines of the hint of discomfort you mention, perhaps G picked up on a xenophobic vibe around the place? A casual racism has been noted in NZ (just saw this today: Nice country, shame about the racism.)


"Hear me, hounds of Sauron, Gandalf is here! Fly if you value your foul skins, I will shrivel you from tail to snout if you step within this circle!"

"Do not be to eager to deal out death in judgement. Even the very wise cannot see all ends."

(This post was edited by AinurOlorin on Aug 26 2012, 2:49am)


Shelob'sAppetite
Valinor

Aug 26 2012, 2:44am

Post #134 of 216 (3831 views)
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Exactly [In reply to] Can't Post

Though in that case, one of those opinions is simply better than the other, because one of those opinions is racist! Smile


Lusitano
Tol Eressea


Aug 26 2012, 2:48am

Post #135 of 216 (3803 views)
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Sirdennisc [In reply to] Can't Post

Yes he probably was. Thanks for the clarification.


GoodGuyA
Lorien

Aug 26 2012, 3:03am

Post #136 of 216 (3826 views)
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Do we have to view everything from the original perspective? [In reply to] Can't Post

The Hobbit changed in and of itself when LotR was released. The entire idea of it changed. The overall view of Tolkien changed, and his life became absorbed in the concept of Middle-Earth. After his death, the story continued to change. Now here we are, in 2012, and even without PJ's help the entire literary persona of Tolkien has completely altered itself. Why must we view this as it was? Why must we take these stories as entirely separated? Why must we think that there is no substitute for when it was written? Even Beowulf changed, my friends.


SirDennisC
Half-elven


Aug 26 2012, 3:13am

Post #137 of 216 (3926 views)
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Just to halt this here [In reply to] Can't Post

really the four theories I posited were just a bit of conjuring, in order to show the futility of second guessing the official story. I've as much as apologized already and would like to leave it at that... in fact it may surprise many to learn that even here in culturally diverse Canada, a casual (and sometimes overt) racism is in evidence in various pockets across the land. (Though Guillermo has been getting along quite well in one of our fair capitals, Toronto, for some time now.)

(This post was edited by SirDennisC on 0 secs ago)


Ataahua
Superuser / Moderator


Aug 26 2012, 3:16am

Post #138 of 216 (3853 views)
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My point [In reply to] Can't Post

was that New Zealand as a whole shouldn't be judged by the comments of some of its population. I didn't touch on right or wrong because that point is obvious.

Celebrimbor: "Pretty rings..."
Dwarves: "Pretty rings..."
Men: "Pretty rings..."
Sauron: "Mine's better."

"Ah, how ironic, the addictive qualities of Sauron’s master weapon led to its own destruction. Which just goes to show, kids - if you want two small and noble souls to succeed on a mission of dire importance... send an evil-minded b*****d with them too." - Gandalf's Diaries, final par, by Ufthak.


Ataahua's stories


AinurOlorin
Half-elven


Aug 26 2012, 3:17am

Post #139 of 216 (3847 views)
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Ah, dear Sibling to The North [In reply to] Can't Post

I so loved watching Oh Canada animations on PBS and cartoon network. True story.

"Hear me, hounds of Sauron, Gandalf is here! Fly if you value your foul skins, I will shrivel you from tail to snout if you step within this circle!"

"Do not be to eager to deal out death in judgement. Even the very wise cannot see all ends."


Shelob'sAppetite
Valinor

Aug 26 2012, 3:28am

Post #140 of 216 (3790 views)
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Agreed [In reply to] Can't Post

Numerous nations, even those that are deemed very liberal (Scandinavian nations, Canada, New Zealand, etc.), have various forms of both subtle and overt racism. I find it odd, and a little alarming, that anyone would not be prepared for such a thing. I wonder if the author of that article has been living in some dreamland utopia until now!


SirDennisC
Half-elven


Aug 26 2012, 3:32am

Post #141 of 216 (3839 views)
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Yes, [In reply to] Can't Post

and I in no way intended for the entire country to be judged on the opinion of one of its bloggers, and a couple blogging visitors.

Again, sorry about that Ataahua.

(This post was edited by SirDennisC on 0 secs ago)


dormouse
Half-elven


Aug 26 2012, 8:30am

Post #142 of 216 (3812 views)
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Too far, SirDennis... [In reply to] Can't Post

... much, much too far. Racism exists in all countries and there is absolutely no suggestion, at all, that it had anything to do with Guillermo's decision to leave The Hobbit. But now you've raised it, just as a suggestion, one poster after another is taking up the idea. You see where conspiracy theories and cynicism take you? The damage they can do?

We do know why Guillermo left. The green light was delayed and delayed, his stay in New Zealand ran on long beyond anything he had planned or anticipated, he had other projects in hand, a family to think of, and when he reached the point of realising that if the green light did come he would then be committed to another two years in New Zealand making the film he decided to leave. The Hobbit was never 'his' project in the sense of being something he had always loved and wanted to do - the dream project for him is 'Mountains of Madness'. He accepted The Hobbit, threw himself into it for a limited time and would have made an excellent job of it if things had gone as planned. But they didn't. The limit passed and he decided it was time to move on. He said it, Peter Jackson confirmed it, it makes perfect sense, why on earth do you - and so many other people here, refuse to believe it? Why do there have to be dark secrets 'they' are hiding from us? Why is it so enticing to believe that there was a falling-out, that someone was nasty to someone, that poor Guillermo was tricked by devious doings at Wellington? There is no evidence for it, none at all.

Sometimes I hate the internet, I really do.

ETA - sorry, SirD - I've just seen that you've drawn back from that one yourself. But I'm leaving this post up anyway because it seems a point worth making and re-making


(This post was edited by dormouse on Aug 26 2012, 8:34am)


macfalk
Valinor


Aug 26 2012, 9:02am

Post #143 of 216 (3754 views)
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Please... [In reply to] Can't Post

Aboriginally so. I wonder if they are as unwelcoming to the lighter hued immigrants to their native land.

That said, the issues over diversity in the films rises to mind again, with the old curiosities concerning varying degrees of attention to matters of gender vs. ethnicity. No need to get into it further here, as it would only spirial into a vicious cycle of shifting umbrage and oblivious defense, but it is an interesting observation.

This type of discussions are just meant to go out of hand... let's not go that route, please Unsure




The greatest adventure is what lies ahead.


macfalk
Valinor


Aug 26 2012, 9:02am

Post #144 of 216 (3744 views)
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Like Sweden? // [In reply to] Can't Post

 



The greatest adventure is what lies ahead.


macfalk
Valinor


Aug 26 2012, 9:03am

Post #145 of 216 (3789 views)
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Well said, dormouse. [In reply to] Can't Post

One conspiracy theory too many about GDT's departure in this thread, if you ask me...



The greatest adventure is what lies ahead.


DanielLB
Immortal


Aug 26 2012, 9:39am

Post #146 of 216 (3787 views)
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The "naffness" of it [In reply to] Can't Post

Rubbish sets, cheesy acting, poor CGI.

I still love it though!


lyndomiel
Rivendell

Aug 26 2012, 1:09pm

Post #147 of 216 (3782 views)
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Maori, actually [In reply to] Can't Post

of Polynesian origin. Aborigines are indigenous to Australia.


Flagg
Tol Eressea


Aug 26 2012, 1:31pm

Post #148 of 216 (3742 views)
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No need to draw such extreme implications from my statement [In reply to] Can't Post

Of course switching directors for each instalment of the Lord of the Rings trilogy would have been daft – it's a singular story in three volumes, and requires a steady hand to be coherent. But The Hobbit is a distinct and self-contained tale with its own themes, a very different tone and (for the most part) a different setting. It would have been the perfect opportunity to show us another aspect of Middle-earth – it'll be a pity if every live-action adaptation of Tolkien's vast universe we get to see has been filtered through the narrow confines of a single director's interpretation and blessed/cursed by the same strengths and weaknesses.

I don't think that Peter Jackson is all that great at capturing the 'realism' and 'sense of history' of the books. For example, the CGI tracking shots that swoop around the landscape at rapid speeds play havoc with the audience's grounding in reality, while the heroes' seeming invulnerability in the heat of battle prevents any real tension from accruing. I think the Game of Thrones directors do a much better job in this respect.


SirDennisC
Half-elven


Aug 26 2012, 2:05pm

Post #149 of 216 (3744 views)
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"Casting caution to the wind" is like that [In reply to] Can't Post

If you are able to follow the line of discussion, my four theories post (with the last being the wildest) was a reaction to BB's post:


Quote
Regarding GDT, I suspect that there were increasing concerns with his vision for The Hobbit than ran throughout the New Zealand production. Take a production incredibly loyal to PJ and bring in an 'outsider' who has a reputation for bringing his own unique vision to a project and you have a recipe for friction. I strongly suspect the failure for the production to get a "green light" had more to do with signals to the studios from the Jackson camp of their growing reservations about GDT than it did with MGM's problems. The delay became a convenient, face-saving way for a change of Director to be made.


I've seen the above theory one too many times, baseless and unkind though it is. So I pushed the absurdity of such speculation a bit further. The post title "as long as we're throwing caution to the wind" was meant to indicate that the post was not careful nor even rational, and at that, deliberately so. I guess I need to be more explicit when my intentions run devious.

On the other hand, I should know better than to repay evil with evil...

It is fascinating however how certain ideas can really take hold, or are easier to run with than others. It's like your post to Geordie about how when film makers consult experts, often they are only looking for broad strokes. Complexity can get in the way of the story, but sometimes it's the only way to understand a story...

Anyway, the tendency to gravitate to ideas that are portable, that have built in wheels, that are easy to grasp or understand (but are they truly understood?) is there in all media. The Internet is no different, but at least we can take the time to try to clarify our positions, if people are willing to read a little further... I appreciate you doing so.

(This post was edited by SirDennisC on 0 secs ago)

(This post was edited by SirDennisC on Aug 26 2012, 2:11pm)


Black Breathalizer
Rohan


Aug 26 2012, 2:59pm

Post #150 of 216 (3707 views)
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... [In reply to] Can't Post

SirDennisC wrote: If you are able to follow the line of discussion, my four theories post (with the last being the wildest) was a reaction to BB's post:


Quote
Regarding GDT, I suspect that there were increasing concerns with his vision for The Hobbit than ran throughout the New Zealand production. Take a production incredibly loyal to PJ and bring in an 'outsider' who has a reputation for bringing his own unique vision to a project and you have a recipe for friction. I strongly suspect the failure for the production to get a "green light" had more to do with signals to the studios from the Jackson camp of their growing reservations about GDT than it did with MGM's problems. The delay became a convenient, face-saving way for a change of Director to be made.

I've seen the above theory one too many times, baseless and unkind though it is. So I pushed the absurdity of such speculation a bit further.


Baseless and unkind? Absurd? Repay evil with evil? Wow, you are really on a roll.


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