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The One Ring Forums: Tolkien Topics: Movie Discussion: The Hobbit:
The Brown Wizard Revealed! (Major spoilers following)
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Lacrimae Rerum
Grey Havens

Aug 22 2012, 11:30pm

Post #101 of 131 (781 views)
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I think they would be presumed out, to me! NT [In reply to] Can't Post

 


DanielLB
Immortal


Aug 22 2012, 11:34pm

Post #102 of 131 (787 views)
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Even if you stayed overnight, on their doorstep, and they still didn't show up? [In reply to] Can't Post

Which is probably what the scouts did. Even if you searched the premises to see where they could be? Even if the neighbours didn't know where they were? Even if their were indications that no-one had been inside for days/weeks/months? Even if you couldn't contact them? Even if after you left, they didn't get in contact?

I think you're looking at this far too much from a real life situation. In Middle-earth, Radagast was missing. And that's that.


Otaku-sempai
Half-elven


Aug 22 2012, 11:35pm

Post #103 of 131 (766 views)
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I never suggested that there was a large-scale search. [In reply to] Can't Post

You assume much more than what I either stated or implied. All we know is that several scouts (out of many) went to Rhosgobel seeking after Radagast. I never suggested that they sent for reinforcements or carried out a more intensive search at some later date. All I stated is that the scouts had likely searched the area fairly thoroughly before giving up and returning with their report. They would not have been very good scouts if they had done otherwise. Or, to take your reponse point-for-point:

1. No one (except you) suggested a large-scale search.
2. See above.
3. See above above.

Arguments that don't apply also don't carry any weight.

"Good and ill have not changed since yesteryear; nor are they one thing among Elves and Dwarves and another among Men. It is a man's part to discern them, as much in the Golden Wood as in his own house." - Aragorn


TomthePilgrim
Rohan


Aug 22 2012, 11:41pm

Post #104 of 131 (747 views)
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Hmmmm . . . [In reply to] Can't Post

. . . and that fits with what it says in the LOTR . . . Radagast could have been away from home trying to avoid the coming conflict . . . a possibility.

It's unlikely that Elrond would have sent out scouts with instructions to simply 'look for signs of Nazgul'. As the LOTR mentions they stopped at Rhosgobelhe's likely to have given instructions to contact allies and ask what they've seen . . . and he may have specifically asked them to stop by and look in on Raddy.

---

Either way, I doubt Raddy gets killed off . . . I think . . . no, bad way to put it . . . . . . . . . I have faith in the PJ and the writing team that they will not kill of a canon character . . . that's partof the reason they create new characters . . . some of them act as cannon fodder . . . pun not intended, but noted . . .and I can't think of any character located somewhere in Tolkien's writtings that they killed off, unless that is what Prof. Tolkien did to them.

My Opinion only . . .


The Road goes ever on and on
Down from the door where it began.
Now far ahead the Road has gone,
And I must follow, if I can,

"Thorin sat up with a start. 'Something is not right,' he muttered to himself as he stood up and
looked towards the mirror . . . . . . . . . 'Durin's bones', he gasped, 'what's happened to my beard?'"


Lacrimae Rerum
Grey Havens

Aug 22 2012, 11:45pm

Post #105 of 131 (746 views)
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Eh? [In reply to] Can't Post

I don't follow why the scouts who are looking for servants of Sauron would probably be camping on Radagast's doorway (they might but I don't get the probably - one could just as well say they probably didn't as they had an alternate mission with a pressiing deadline but anyway).

Where are the indications that no one had been at Rhosgobel for a period of time? Now if Tolkien had said that, or that the place was boarded up, maybe I would say we had some clues. But he doesn't.

How were they to contact him? Smoke signals, maybe, I guess?

And how do we know whether Radagast came back, got in contact or anything else?

And you can't just say "that's that". That might be your reading but there's no that's that about it. I may as well say he was was on a safari holiday in south Harad and that's that.

To return to the original thrust Tolkien certainly didn't go out of his way to explain Radagast's absence from the rest of the events of LOTR or his subsequent fate. This doesn't seem to have caused any uproar historically.

LR


Lacrimae Rerum
Grey Havens

Aug 22 2012, 11:55pm

Post #106 of 131 (729 views)
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No we don't know that. [In reply to] Can't Post

Where does it state that they were seeking Radagast? And why would they be?

The scouting operation described is (excuse the longish quote):

"The hobbits had been nearly two months in the House of Elrond, and November had gone bywith the last shreds of autumn, and December was passing, when the scouts began to return. Some had gone north beyond the springs of the Hoarwell into the Ettenmoors; and others had gone west,
and with the help of Aragorn and the Rangers had searched the lands far down the Greyflood, as faras Tharbad, where the old North Road crossed the river by a ruined town. Many had gone east andsouth; and some of these had crossed the Mountains and entered Mirkwood, while others had climbed the pass at the source of the Gladden River, and had come down into Wilderland and overthe Gladden Fields and so at length had reached the old home of Radagast at Rhosgobel. Radagast was not there; and they had returned over the high pass that was called the Dimrill Stair."

The outcome of the scouting is revealed:

"In no region had the messengers discovered any signs or tidings of the Riders or other servantsof the Enemy. Even from the Eagles of the Misty Mountains they had learned no fresh news.Nothing had been seen or heard of Gollum; but the wild wolves were still gathering, and were hunting again far up the Great River ...etc"

And we know that this was vital information to decide if the Ring could leave Rivendell.

So are you suggesting that this ought to be interpreted as two separate searches - one for Radagast (for reasons unknown) and one to gather info on where Sauron's servants were in order to plan the journey of the Fellowship?

I don't see any evidence for that myself.

LR


DanielLB
Immortal


Aug 22 2012, 11:55pm

Post #107 of 131 (741 views)
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The scouts went from Rhosgobel to the Redhorn Pass, and back to Rivendell [In reply to] Can't Post

They had no other pressing business whatsoever. They obviously went to find Radagast on the end of their merry trip around Middle-earth. Although not their only mission, obviously Elrond wanted them to check up on him. If he wasn't in, then they may have assumed he was out, and waited for him to come back. He didn't, so they went back to Rivendell. More happens in Middle-earth than is written in black ink. The scouts were pretty crap otherwise.


Quote
To return to the original thrust Tolkien certainly didn't go out of his way to explain Radagast's absence from the rest of the events of LOTR or his subsequent fate. This doesn't seem to have caused any uproar historically.



You're still missing my point. I don't care how they leave it as a mystery, they should not however show him live happily every after.

Whether he is actually physically missing is a whole different issue. I'm not at all questioning whether he actually was missing, or busy living it large in Harad. I'm questioning where everyone else in Middle-earth, and therefore, the reader, believes Radagast is. So, for one final time, as I am getting irritable, the only person who knew where Radagast was at the beginning of the War of the Ring, was Radagast himself. So to everyone else in Middle-earth, where was he?

A) Missing
B) Not missing

And yes, there is only one right answer. And yes, it's A. I can't see how anyone in Middle-earth can think he is not missing.

I shall say no more of this until the morning. I'm tired, and need to catch some z's. Night all.


(This post was edited by DanielLB on Aug 23 2012, 12:04am)


Otaku-sempai
Half-elven


Aug 22 2012, 11:56pm

Post #108 of 131 (758 views)
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There is precedence for PJ killing off Tolkien's characters [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
Either way, I doubt Raddy gets killed off . . . I think . . . no, bad way to put it . . . . . . . . . I have faith in the PJ and the writing team that they will not kill of a canon character . . . that's partof the reason they create new characters . . . some of them act as cannon fodder . . . pun not intended, but noted . . .and I can't think of any character located somewhere in Tolkien's writtings that they killed off, unless that is what Prof. Tolkien did to them.

My Opinion only . . .



There was Haldir and his entire unit of Elven archers, whom Jackson wiped out at Helm's Deep. In the books, Haldir was never at Helm's Deep. The deaths were added to the film to symbolize the price paid for the War in the North.

"Good and ill have not changed since yesteryear; nor are they one thing among Elves and Dwarves and another among Men. It is a man's part to discern them, as much in the Golden Wood as in his own house." - Aragorn


Otaku-sempai
Half-elven


Aug 23 2012, 12:03am

Post #109 of 131 (745 views)
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Again, you assume too much... [In reply to] Can't Post

Firstly, I doubt that the scouts stopped by Rhosgobel to borrow a cup of sugar. If they were not looking for the Brown Wizard then they had no reason for being there. As for why, it would have been part of their orders to touch base with other allies and potential allies along the way to see what they knew. Not a separate search, but one that was integrated into their primary mission.

You keep trying to put words into other people's mouths that they never said. Stop it.

"Good and ill have not changed since yesteryear; nor are they one thing among Elves and Dwarves and another among Men. It is a man's part to discern them, as much in the Golden Wood as in his own house." - Aragorn

(This post was edited by Otaku-sempai on Aug 23 2012, 12:05am)


Lacrimae Rerum
Grey Havens

Aug 23 2012, 12:07am

Post #110 of 131 (740 views)
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The ring is at Rivendell [In reply to] Can't Post

And the Nazgul know it. And Elrond is sending out his forces on " merry trips"

I don't understand how the reader not knowing where he is equals no one in ME knows where he is.

And if he has gone for a walk , and no one does know his precise location that is not the same as him "going missing" for months/ years/ forever.

LR


TomthePilgrim
Rohan


Aug 23 2012, 12:08am

Post #111 of 131 (710 views)
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Hmmmm . . . [In reply to] Can't Post

Good point . . . Haldir was actually mentioned in the book, wasn't he . . .

Well, THANK YOU Tongue . . . . . . . . . . now I'm back to worrying about Radagast geeting killed off . . . . . . . . . .
Kidding . . . mostly . . . thanx for pointing that out.


The Road goes ever on and on
Down from the door where it began.
Now far ahead the Road has gone,
And I must follow, if I can,

"Thorin sat up with a start. 'Something is not right,' he muttered to himself as he stood up and
looked towards the mirror . . . . . . . . . 'Durin's bones', he gasped, 'what's happened to my beard?'"


DanielLB
Immortal


Aug 23 2012, 12:11am

Post #112 of 131 (743 views)
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Because if no-one in Middle-earth knows where he is, then the reader certainly doesn't know where he is! [In reply to] Can't Post

I don't care if he was out for a walk (he may well have been), but to the scouts, to Elrond, to Gandalf, and to the reader, he is not where he should be, and is never heard of again.

Quite a mystery to where he actually is, and therefore, presumed, missing.


DanielLB
Immortal


Aug 23 2012, 12:11am

Post #113 of 131 (728 views)
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You wan't to be more worried about whether Radagast was missing or not ;-) / [In reply to] Can't Post

 


Lacrimae Rerum
Grey Havens

Aug 23 2012, 12:15am

Post #114 of 131 (712 views)
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Well they are the words in the book [In reply to] Can't Post

Rhosghobel is mentioned as one of several specific locations. Perhaps they were borrowing sugar at each of those instead.

The purpose of the scouting is made perfectly plain in the following paragraph.

They stopped at Rhosghobel. Radagast wasn't there. The rest is supposition.

LR


Sinister71
Tol Eressea


Aug 23 2012, 12:16am

Post #115 of 131 (701 views)
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yes the ring is Rivendell during FOTR [In reply to] Can't Post

but in the Hobbit Sauron has no clue what so ever where it is. And the events with Radagast are taking place during the time of the Hobbit not FOTR from my understanding. So that makes the LOTR timeline obsolete and out dated


Lacrimae Rerum
Grey Havens

Aug 23 2012, 12:17am

Post #116 of 131 (716 views)
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Where does it say Gandalf or [In reply to] Can't Post

Elrond never heard from him again?

LR


DanielLB
Immortal


Aug 23 2012, 12:18am

Post #117 of 131 (687 views)
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Well, there we are then. [In reply to] Can't Post


Quote
The rest is supposition.


By that logic, Radagast was neither missing, nor out for a walk. He must have been in a state of flux, deciding whether to take the form of a moth or not.


Otaku-sempai
Half-elven


Aug 23 2012, 12:19am

Post #118 of 131 (724 views)
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Read more closely. [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
Rhosghobel is mentioned as one of several specific locations. Perhaps they were borrowing sugar at each of those instead.

The purpose of the scouting is made perfectly plain in the following paragraph.

They stopped at Rhosghobel. Radagast wasn't there. The rest is supposition.

LR



It is also made plain in that same paragraph that the scouts are consulting with other allies (such as the Eagles). Radagast falls under the same umbrella.

"Good and ill have not changed since yesteryear; nor are they one thing among Elves and Dwarves and another among Men. It is a man's part to discern them, as much in the Golden Wood as in his own house." - Aragorn


DanielLB
Immortal


Aug 23 2012, 12:21am

Post #119 of 131 (697 views)
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Because he was never mentioned again. [In reply to] Can't Post

If Tolkien wanted Radagast to suddenly appear at the end with a "congratulations for destroying Sauron" cake, then he would've done. Radagast's sudden re-appearance would certainly be worth a couple of sentences in the book, a note in the Appendices, or even a mention in one of his letters.

The fact he is not mentioned again is good enough evidence that nobody ever saw or heard from him again. Which I believe is called missing?


(This post was edited by DanielLB on Aug 23 2012, 12:22am)


TomthePilgrim
Rohan


Aug 23 2012, 12:25am

Post #120 of 131 (707 views)
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In flux, huh . . . [In reply to] Can't Post

Like Schrodinger's Cat? Wink


The Road goes ever on and on
Down from the door where it began.
Now far ahead the Road has gone,
And I must follow, if I can,

"Thorin sat up with a start. 'Something is not right,' he muttered to himself as he stood up and
looked towards the mirror . . . . . . . . . 'Durin's bones', he gasped, 'what's happened to my beard?'"


painjoiker
Grey Havens


Aug 23 2012, 1:02am

Post #121 of 131 (712 views)
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(This post includes book-spoilers) Why does Radagasts absence have to be explained? [In reply to] Can't Post

When there are 13 dwarves (well... 10, really) that doesn't show up in LotR, and that's fine...
The only one we get explanation from is Balin, in Moria... :P

Vocalist in the semi-progressive metal band Arctic Eclipse


Shelob'sAppetite
Valinor

Aug 23 2012, 2:19am

Post #122 of 131 (657 views)
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The text does not say they were seeking Radagast [In reply to] Can't Post

It simply implies that while the scouts scoured Mirkwood for signs of the Black Riders, they stopped by Rhosgobel, likely with the intention of asking if he, or his animal friends, had seen anything.mas he wasn't there, and there were likely no signs of him nearby, the implication is that he is gone, or missing, from that area. But as he seems to be a well-travelled wizard, there is no indication that him not being at Rhosgobel, or in and around Mirkwood, constitutes 'missing.'

The primary objective of the scouts was to find information about the Black Riders, not to find Radagast. He was likely just one potential informant among many.


Otaku-sempai
Half-elven


Aug 23 2012, 4:20am

Post #123 of 131 (642 views)
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Of course finding Radagast was of secondary importance (at most)... [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
It simply implies that while the scouts scoured Mirkwood for signs of the Black Riders, they stopped by Rhosgobel, likely with the intention of asking if he, or his animal friends, had seen anything.mas he wasn't there, and there were likely no signs of him nearby, the implication is that he is gone, or missing, from that area. But as he seems to be a well-travelled wizard, there is no indication that him not being at Rhosgobel, or in and around Mirkwood, constitutes 'missing.'

The primary objective of the scouts was to find information about the Black Riders, not to find Radagast. He was likely just one potential informant among many.



I am not saying that finding Radagast was part of their primary mission. Checking in on him, like questioning the Eagles, was another way of keeping track of enemy movements; he or his animal friends might have seen something that the scouts would have missed otherwise. The fact that he could not be accounted for was notable, though, especially since he ceases to be mentioned again in the annals of Middle-earth.

"Good and ill have not changed since yesteryear; nor are they one thing among Elves and Dwarves and another among Men. It is a man's part to discern them, as much in the Golden Wood as in his own house." - Aragorn


DanielLB
Immortal


Aug 23 2012, 6:48am

Post #124 of 131 (650 views)
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The definition of missing [In reply to] Can't Post


Quote
But as he seems to be a well-travelled wizard, there is no indication that him not being at Rhosgobel, or in and around Mirkwood, constitutes 'missing.'



1. (of a thing) Not able to be found because it is not in its expected place.
2. Not present or included when expected or supposed to be.

Synonyms: lost, absent, wanting, lacking, gone.

If Radagast doesn't fit this very definition, then I give up.


(This post was edited by DanielLB on Aug 23 2012, 6:49am)


stormcrow20
Gondor


Aug 24 2012, 8:06am

Post #125 of 131 (672 views)
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Ai! Aiwendil! [In reply to] Can't Post

It's a great relief to finally see the bird-tamer! I'm not fond of the hat, and I loathe the bird droppings. But otherwise, he looks good. I like the satchel, and his wavy hair and beard. I'm still concerned about his portrayal at this point, but regardless of that, I'm glad they are including Radagast. I can't wait to have a better look at him, and especially to "meet" him on screen!



(This post was edited by stormcrow20 on Aug 24 2012, 8:08am)

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