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The One Ring Forums: Tolkien Topics: Movie Discussion: The Hobbit:
(spoilers) The Battle of Which Five Armies?
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burgahobbit
Rohan


Aug 22 2012, 6:01pm

Post #1 of 57 (2414 views)
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(spoilers) The Battle of Which Five Armies? Can't Post

So who are these "Five Armies" that join battle in the epic conclusion of The Hobbit?

According to the book, they are: men, elves, dwarves, goblins and wargs.
According to the Rankin/Bass animated film: men, elves, dwarves, goblins and eagles.

These last two "armies", in both lists, seem to dissatisfy. Wargs are sort of like horses for orcs (per se), which do not constitute an army. The only way wargs could serve as one of the five armies in the movie (IMHO) is if they arrived alone, without goblins, while some other wargs were being ridden by the orcs. As for the eagles, there aren't nearly enough of them to be considered an army.

So what else might this fifth army be? Could it be...More Orcs? The reason I say this is because Azog is now going to be either alive or undead during the time of TH, and Bolg is going to be working for the Necromancer. If the Necromancer has an army of orcs, once the battle of Dol Gulder is over, these orcs could retreat into Mirkwood and later be lead by Bolg to the BO5A where they meet up with the other orc army led by Azog. Thus explaining the odd and seemingly needless use of Azog as the leader of the orc army.

What do you think?


TomthePilgrim
Rohan


Aug 22 2012, 6:22pm

Post #2 of 57 (1140 views)
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Nice question . . . you made me pull the Hobbit out instead of working from memory . . . [In reply to] Can't Post

. . . and here is what I've got so far:

1) The Battle of Five Armies, according to Prof. Tolkien: "Upon one side were the Goblins and the Wild Wolves, and upon the other were Elves and Men and Dwarves."
2) The Battle of Five Armies takes up four pages in the book . . . . . . . . . FOUR! PJ and Co. will have a lot of room for creative thought on this one.
3) huh . . . no three . . . yet . . .


The Road goes ever on and on
Down from the door where it began.
Now far ahead the Road has gone,
And I must follow, if I can,

"Thorin sat up with a start. 'Something is not right,' he muttered to himself as he stood up and
looked towards the mirror . . . . . . . . . 'Durin's bones', he gasped, 'what's happened to my beard?'"


Mooseboy018
Gondor


Aug 22 2012, 6:39pm

Post #3 of 57 (1049 views)
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Wargs [In reply to] Can't Post

I have a feeling the wargs will be made into more distinct creatures than they were in the other movies. Wasn't it mentioned somewhere that the wargs were going to have their own language? Or was that just speculation? If it's true, then that'd be one step to making them seem more like their own standalone army/race in a way and not just steeds of the orcs.


(This post was edited by Mooseboy018 on Aug 22 2012, 6:39pm)


TomthePilgrim
Rohan


Aug 22 2012, 6:42pm

Post #4 of 57 (978 views)
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That sounds like a GDT thing . . . [In reply to] Can't Post

. . . and I like it!


The Road goes ever on and on
Down from the door where it began.
Now far ahead the Road has gone,
And I must follow, if I can,

"Thorin sat up with a start. 'Something is not right,' he muttered to himself as he stood up and
looked towards the mirror . . . . . . . . . 'Durin's bones', he gasped, 'what's happened to my beard?'"


Faenoriel
Tol Eressea


Aug 22 2012, 6:43pm

Post #5 of 57 (990 views)
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Wargs are Goblins' allies, not domesticated animals [In reply to] Can't Post

In the book it seems pretty clear the Wargs are an indepenent socirty choosing to co-operate with the Goblins. I hope they capitalize on this instead of dumbing them down to "mere animals".

But every word you say today
Gets twisted 'round some other way
And they'll hurt you if they think you've lied


dave_lf
Gondor

Aug 22 2012, 6:44pm

Post #6 of 57 (974 views)
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The wargs belong to the Necromancer [In reply to] Can't Post

Indications are that the wargs are going to come from Dol Guldur. My guess: Men, elves, dwarves, goblins from the misty mountains, (were?)wolves from Dol Guldur.


Faenoriel
Tol Eressea


Aug 22 2012, 6:51pm

Post #7 of 57 (1010 views)
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Sauron, the Lord of Werewolves [In reply to] Can't Post

Somehow that title of his has always amused me. Of course, me loving both Sauron and werewolves I also adore the fact that in M-E the two are so intimately connected. However somehow I never thought of this connection in the context of Hobbit. Thanks for bringing it up! Some nice food of though it is. If they choose to play this card, we could perhaps get some juicy Silmarillion references, even to the Lay of Lúthien. Philippa and Fran, make it happen! Evil

But every word you say today
Gets twisted 'round some other way
And they'll hurt you if they think you've lied


Kangi Ska
Half-elven


Aug 22 2012, 7:07pm

Post #8 of 57 (877 views)
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The Army of Reanimated Dragons [In reply to] Can't Post

each dragon with a company of the ugliest Orcs riding on its back and led by The Witch King riding the resurrected Smaug. Now if we could only work in a few explosions...

Kangi Ska Resident Trickster & Wicked White Crebain
Life is an adventure, not a contest.

At night you can not tell if crows are black or white.
Photobucket



Otaku-sempai
Half-elven


Aug 22 2012, 7:09pm

Post #9 of 57 (924 views)
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That is from the book... [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
I have a feeling the wargs will be made into more distinct creatures than they were in the other movies. Wasn't it mentioned somewhere that the wargs were going to have their own language? Or was that just speculation? If it's true, then that'd be one step to making them seem more like their own standalone army/race in a way and not just steeds of the orcs.



The Wargs having their own language comes directly from the book. Luckily, Gandalf was able to understand them. Perhaps they were actually using the Black Speech, learned from the Werewolves.

"Good and ill have not changed since yesteryear; nor are they one thing among Elves and Dwarves and another among Men. It is a man's part to discern them, as much in the Golden Wood as in his own house." - Aragorn


Hanzkaz
Rohan

Aug 22 2012, 7:25pm

Post #10 of 57 (895 views)
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Possible movie version of the Battle of Five Armies - [In reply to] Can't Post

 
Army 1 : The Elves of Mirkwood and the Men of Lake-Town.


Army 2 : The Dwarves, intending to reclaim their treasure.


Army 3 : The Goblns, a savage horde bent on revenge for the death of the Goblin-King.


Army 4 : The Orcs, a more disciplined force, led by Bolg, sent by the Necromancer as vengeance for the fall of Dol Guldur (The death of Azog at Dol Guldur may also serve as further incentive for Bolg). There may also be the more unusual minions of Sauron present (Werewolves, wights, etc).

(Armies 3 and 4 have their own Wargs. Bats may be a Dol Guldur speciality).

Army 5: The White Council forces, sent by Galadriel to aid Gandalf and his allies, in their 'hour of need'. (The Eagles may herald the arrival of Army 5).

------------------------------------------------------------------


Phase 1: Army 1 vs Army 2. (Impending battle interrupted by the arrival of the bad guys)

Phase 2: Armies 1 and 2 vs Army 3. (Bad guys eventually retreat).

Phase 3: Armies 1 and 2 vs Armies 3 and 4. (Good guys are on the defensive after the surprise arrival of the Dol Guldur forces).

Phase 4: Armies 1, 2 and 5 vs Armies 3 and 4. (Tide finally turned in the favour of the good guys, especially with the arrival of Beorn).

------------------------------------------------------------


It looks like the Battle of Five Armies can take up quite a bit of screen time - and if Smaug does somehow make a comeback, things could get very messy.


(This post was edited by Hanzkaz on Aug 22 2012, 7:32pm)


AinurOlorin
Half-elven


Aug 22 2012, 8:45pm

Post #11 of 57 (749 views)
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There were enough Eagles for an army [In reply to] Can't Post

Jackson's ROTK adaptation only shows about four to seven Eagles, but the Animated films had dozens if not hundreds, which is in keeping with The Hobbit novel, in which it tells that The Lord of The Eagles had been watching the massing of the goblin armies, and had gathered Eagles from every Aeriye in The North to come against them.

"Hear me, hounds of Sauron, Gandalf is here! Fly if you value your foul skins, I will shrivel you from tail to snout if you step within this circle!"

"Do not be to eager to deal out death in judgement. Even the very wise cannot see all ends."


DanielLB
Immortal


Aug 22 2012, 9:41pm

Post #12 of 57 (686 views)
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I don't see any reason why they need to change it. / [In reply to] Can't Post

 


Kangi Ska
Half-elven


Aug 22 2012, 10:01pm

Post #13 of 57 (677 views)
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The Eagles would be an Airforce not an army.// [In reply to] Can't Post

 

Kangi Ska Resident Trickster & Wicked White Crebain
Life is an adventure, not a contest.

At night you can not tell if crows are black or white.
Photobucket



Sinister71
Tol Eressea


Aug 22 2012, 10:39pm

Post #14 of 57 (668 views)
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I've always seen it as [In reply to] Can't Post

the Goblins and Wargs as one, though separate forces, one army. With the dwarves as one army, the elves as an army, and men as another army...which gives us 4 out of the 5. Then the eagles show up making it 5 armies. Just like it was in the book. Beorn and Gandalf I really would just consider participants but not armies... I do however truly hope they leave any forces of Sauron out or anything about him wanting revenge for being chased out of DolGuldur. He willingly fled there in a strategic retreat, so i really hope he plays no part what so ever in the BO5A. Smile


Carne
Tol Eressea

Aug 22 2012, 11:00pm

Post #15 of 57 (644 views)
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Trolls? [In reply to] Can't Post

Do you think they'll have some trolls stroll along the goblins? Yes, there's goblins and wargs, but not much more. ROTK had nazguls, trolls and műmakils so I'm assuming they'll want to give the enemy something "big".

One way of doing this would be to create some unique looking body guards for Bolg and play around with these, but I'm not sure if that's enough.


Sinister71
Tol Eressea


Aug 22 2012, 11:02pm

Post #16 of 57 (637 views)
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they need something spectacular but... [In reply to] Can't Post

they don't want something bigger than the war in ROTK that was the end of life as the 3rd age knew it Smile


Carne
Tol Eressea

Aug 22 2012, 11:03pm

Post #17 of 57 (612 views)
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Spectacular, yes [In reply to] Can't Post

I know it won't be as big as ROTK, but I think they're going to throw in something special.


DanielLB
Immortal


Aug 22 2012, 11:05pm

Post #18 of 57 (624 views)
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How about the stone giants ;-) / [In reply to] Can't Post

 


Carne
Tol Eressea

Aug 22 2012, 11:06pm

Post #19 of 57 (685 views)
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"You want stone giants? I'll give you stone giants!" - PJ, summer of 2014 [In reply to] Can't Post

A scene with Legolas battling 20 stone giants Wink


(This post was edited by Carne on Aug 22 2012, 11:10pm)


Sinister71
Tol Eressea


Aug 22 2012, 11:16pm

Post #20 of 57 (602 views)
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20 thats it? [In reply to] Can't Post

it will be over in 3 minutes LaughLaughLaugh, We need to throw in about 50 trolls, a mumakil, a score of zombie wargs and orcs then everyone else with be decimated except Legolas and the battle might last 5 and a half minutes at least AngelicWinkLaughLaughLaugh


DanielLB
Immortal


Aug 22 2012, 11:17pm

Post #21 of 57 (607 views)
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And don't forget Smaug. He should be there too / [In reply to] Can't Post

 


Sinister71
Tol Eressea


Aug 22 2012, 11:18pm

Post #22 of 57 (646 views)
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Zombie Smaug... NT [In reply to] Can't Post

 


Otaku-sempai
Half-elven


Aug 22 2012, 11:37pm

Post #23 of 57 (624 views)
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Reserve the Trolls for Dol Guldur... [In reply to] Can't Post

No need for them at the Bot5A. The elite Goblin/Orc bodyguards will be huge enough.

"Good and ill have not changed since yesteryear; nor are they one thing among Elves and Dwarves and another among Men. It is a man's part to discern them, as much in the Golden Wood as in his own house." - Aragorn


Sinister71
Tol Eressea


Aug 23 2012, 12:22am

Post #24 of 57 (611 views)
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I'm still saying there wont be a physical battle at DolGuldur [In reply to] Can't Post

I'm still holding out hope that the devices (strategies) of Saruman will drive out the Necromancer because he seen them coming and knew he would have losses if he openly battled them and opted to "flee before them" to Mordor


Carne
Tol Eressea

Aug 23 2012, 12:32am

Post #25 of 57 (596 views)
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I think there will be fighting at Dol Guldur [In reply to] Can't Post

But not like a huge battle with thousands of people. More like an infiltration.

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