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AinurOlorin
Half-elven
Aug 20 2012, 9:45pm
Post #1 of 46
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Does Peter know of the defeat of Angmar and The Witch King at Fornost by Arnor/Lindon/Rivendell/Gondor? The bothersome rumours of entombed Nazgul makes me wonder.
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I don't say this to be mean. Yet I know that, for whatever reason, the final battles of The North Kingdom, in which Angmar was utterly overthrown by the combined might of Arnor, Lindon, Rivendell and Gondor, are detailed in the annals of Gondor rather than in the annals of Arnor.
While I imagine Peter et al have read this, I cannot be certain. There is skimming for key details, and then there is reading. . . and then there is careful, thorough READING. If Peter et al only did the former, and considered their own reading sufficient without further consultation of other, more precise Loremasters, it would have been possible to overlook this major conflict due to looking in the wrong place. That is to say, if one were looking specifically for records on Arnor and the line of Isildur and The Dunedain, one might read The Annals of Arnor and not bother with those of Gondor, even though the most momentous even of the last days of Arnor is detailed in Gondor's records. In newer copies, near the end of the Annals of Arnor there is a notation reffering the reader to Gondor's Annals for a more complete account of the last days of Arnor and Angmar. Yet, I noticed that some versions do not have this helpful hint.
One of the reasons for my old Glorfindel grude always went beyond just his awesome aspects in the LOTR narrative, but also his Third Age history as the person who drove The Witch King from The North and made the most famous ( and ultimately, strangely true) prophecy about him.
With this talk of Dunedain sealing Nazgul in crypts, I am forced to wonder now whether Peter is again slight Glorfindel (and, in this case, also slighting Lindon, Rivendell as a whole, Earnur and Gondor), or is actually ignorant of the battle that finally ended Angmar?
"Hear me, hounds of Sauron, Gandalf is here! Fly if you value your foul skins, I will shrivel you from tail to snout if you step within this circle!"
"Do not be to eager to deal out death in judgement. Even the very wise cannot see all ends."
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Radagast-Aiwendil
Gondor
Aug 20 2012, 9:57pm
Post #2 of 46
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I do not doubt that PJ has read this passage through thoroughly
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He's just chosen to ignore it. That said, while PJ is ultimately in charged of the whole thing, I think that his co-writers are just as much to blame for some of the ideas that have been produced, and most likely have encouraged him to try and get away with some of them in the first place ( they succeeded in getting away with it many times in the LOTR Trilogy).
I still hope for a flashback to the Battle of Fornost though, so that there is at least something to go with Galadriel's claim that the Nazgul were imprisoned by the Dunedain. However, given that we have no casting details to do with this, I suspect that it is highly unlikely.
"Radagast is, of course, a worthy wizard, a master of shapes and changes of hue, and he has much lore of herbs and beasts, and birds are especially his friends."-Gandalf, The Lord of the Rings.
(This post was edited by Radagast-Aiwendil on Aug 20 2012, 9:58pm)
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Lacrimae Rerum
Grey Havens
Aug 20 2012, 9:59pm
Post #3 of 46
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I doubt he is slighting Glorfindel because Glorfindel is a fictional character with no feelings to hurt.
Given that the tales of Arnor are not tales Jackson plans to tell (as far as we know) and given that I am almost certain he has no plans to film the text of the tale of years, changing the back stories of the Nazgul doesn't really cause any issues for the films in hand.
LR
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dormouse
Half-elven
Aug 20 2012, 10:06pm
Post #4 of 46
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... and I wouldn't have the cheek to say he doesn't know - after all, he certainly has the book and is as capable of reading it as any of us. But whether he knows of it or not, knowing about it and deciding to put it in the film are likely to be two different things. He can't put everything in and there will be things he has to simplify and contract to make a coherent narrative which is still centred on The Hobbit.
I'm sure he doesn't have anything personal against Glorfindel - but he might not have space in the film to build in another battle.
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geordie
Tol Eressea
Aug 20 2012, 10:25pm
Post #5 of 46
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- given that pJ believes the Appendices consist of what he refers to as 'extended hobbit notes', added to 'later' editions of RotK (by which I guess he means later than his own copy, which dates from 1978 and has only 'The Tale of Aragorn and Arwen') - it sounds to me as if he hadn't given these matters any mind when he filmed LotR.
What he may do now he's found them is anybody's guess.
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Lacrimae Rerum
Grey Havens
Aug 20 2012, 10:30pm
Post #7 of 46
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rather more accurately as "notes which expand the world of The Hobbit", as we know.
LR
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AinurOlorin
Half-elven
Aug 20 2012, 10:39pm
Post #8 of 46
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If there is blame to be had, it is certainly to be shared.
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If ever I doubted it, some of Phillipa's recent "gospel cause I see it that way" comments have convinced me. And I don't generally mean to cast aspersion. On the whole they did some really good work, but it wasn't without flaw, and there were also some glaring, ugly changes and omissions. Lacrimae may say whatever she likes, but Glorfindel was shafted, and if he is unable to be offended for himself I will be offended for him, as Kangi and Bombadil have been for Old Tom.
As to what it hurts. . . I hate it when they blatantly contradict the history of the Legendarium. I don't mind adding things to fill in blanks, but completely defying what is plainly stated is another more eggregious matter altogether. He's just chosen to ignore it. That said, while PJ is ultimately in charged of the whole thing, I think that his co-writers are just as much to blame for some of the ideas that have been produced, and most likely have encouraged him to try and get away with some of them in the first place ( they succeeded in getting away with it many times in the LOTR Trilogy).
I still hope for a flashback to the Battle of Fornost though, so that there is at least something to go with Galadriel's claim that the Nazgul were imprisoned by the Dunedain. However, given that we have no casting details to do with this, I suspect that it is highly unlikely.
"Hear me, hounds of Sauron, Gandalf is here! Fly if you value your foul skins, I will shrivel you from tail to snout if you step within this circle!"
"Do not be to eager to deal out death in judgement. Even the very wise cannot see all ends."
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Captain Salt
Tol Eressea
Aug 20 2012, 11:45pm
Post #10 of 46
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Well, they're not so much rumors as confirmed fact (having been part of the Comic-Con footage),..
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And I'm sure that PJ is familiar with the history pertaining to Arnor and the Nazgul...this deviation does seem rather strange, save for allowing of a variation on the barrow-wights/downs, and beginning Sauron's re-emergance with the resurrection of the Ringwraiths...potentially, quite a potent moment. We'll have to see...
Personally, I would have preferred that PJ had stuck with Tolkien's version of the war between Arnor & Angmar, but again, let's see how it plays out in the film.
As for Glorfindel...we may yet see him as a member of the White Council, assuming there are others than Gandy, Sarry, Elrond and Galadriel. Though I wouldn't hold my breath...
My Top 5 Wish List for "The Hobbit"
5. Legolas will surf down Smaug's neck
4. Bilbo will be revealed to a Robot
3. Naked PJ cameo as Ghan-Buri-Ghan
2. Use of not only 3D, but smell-o-vision, plus the inclusion of axes coming out of the seats and poking the audience when appropriate
1. Not only keep the claim that Thorin & Co. ran amok in Mirkwood "molesting people", but depict said incident in vivid detail!!!!!
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AinurOlorin
Half-elven
Aug 21 2012, 12:33am
Post #11 of 46
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I wouldn't even consider holding my breath, Captain Salt
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 . I agree with you on most of the points. Such curious turns. Truth be told, this is probably the one that bothers me most so far. I could kinda deal with Bolg at Dol Guldur. It isn't as though the texts ever detailed his every move. A ressurected Azog mainly bothers me for what it might portend about other things. . . like that rumour of a ressurected Smaug at The Battle of Erebor being more than rumour.
But Nazgul in crypts, The Battle of Fornost likely forgotten. . . it really bothers me, and I just wonder if it is oversight, or if Jackson knowingly and willfully proceeding with erroneous details.
"Hear me, hounds of Sauron, Gandalf is here! Fly if you value your foul skins, I will shrivel you from tail to snout if you step within this circle!"
"Do not be to eager to deal out death in judgement. Even the very wise cannot see all ends."
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Phibbus
Rohan
Aug 21 2012, 12:55am
Post #12 of 46
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Glorfindel is probably undead. You should probably be careful what you wish for.
Man is but an ass if he go about to expound this dream.
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Tim
Tol Eressea
Aug 21 2012, 1:32am
Post #13 of 46
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Hands AinurOlorin a towel and a button that says "Don't Panic!"
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King Arthur: You know much that is hidden oh Tim.
Tim: Quite.
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AinurOlorin
Half-elven
Aug 21 2012, 3:10am
Post #14 of 46
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I am very careful in my wishing, Phibbus.
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I know that some people have the "humour" of evil Djinn. I wish for a living Glorfindel, much like the one standing behind Elrond in Minas Tirith in the ROTK movie, who does NOT receive the Haldir treatment (i.e. false killing), and I would be quite content if all he received was a brief cameo, welcoming his friend Gandalf to Rivendell or something of the sort.
I also would like the final wars of Arnor and Angmar to follow the text, not be a fabrication pulled from the collective bum of Jackson, Boyens and Walsh. Just saying.,
"Hear me, hounds of Sauron, Gandalf is here! Fly if you value your foul skins, I will shrivel you from tail to snout if you step within this circle!"
"Do not be to eager to deal out death in judgement. Even the very wise cannot see all ends."
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Phibbus
Rohan
Aug 21 2012, 3:31am
Post #15 of 46
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I've always been fond of the character, as well
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And was only making a feeble attempt at lightheartedness.
One of the things I like most of all about him is that Tolkien changed his bridle to a headstall in response to a reader's criticism. See, some people do pay attention to fan input. Keep at it
Man is but an ass if he go about to expound this dream.
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TomthePilgrim
Rohan
Aug 21 2012, 3:37am
Post #16 of 46
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I'd also like to see Glorfindel . . .
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. . . . . . . . . as long . . . as . . . PJ doesn't portray him in a cameo. 
The Road goes ever on and on
Down from the door where it began.
Now far ahead the Road has gone,
And I must follow, if I can,
"Thorin sat up with a start. 'Something is not right,' he muttered to himself as he stood up and
looked towards the mirror . . . . . . . . . 'Durin's bones', he gasped, 'what's happened to my beard?'"
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MouthofSauron
Tol Eressea
Aug 21 2012, 3:43am
Post #17 of 46
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after Sauron's defeat at the war of the last alliance the Dunedain hunted down the Nazgūl and sealed them in crypts? i thought the Nazgūl were in spirit form like Sauron? i mean were they skeletons that could move like in Army of Darkness? i assumed when the nine kings died they turned into "wraiths" neither living nor dead. PJ is changing this so he can include Nazgūl in TH but how did Tolkien say they escaped the crypts and when? because i thought the Nazgūl were lurking around dol-guldur and mordor for a long time before the events in LOTR's.
From the bottom of the Long-Lake a dragon shall be possessed...green lights glowing out of the deep waters shall be seen where the dragon fell...reanimated shall be Smaug that was killed...and the Dark Lord will fly over Middle-Earth unopposed...raining fire down upon his enemies...
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Aitieuriskon
Lorien
Aug 21 2012, 4:17am
Post #18 of 46
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Does anyone else have to stifle a laugh
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when imagining the Nine lurking around in Mordor for centuries in housekeeping mode before the return of Sauron?
Humor aside, the takeover of the various Numenorean watch-towers and forts by the wraiths is a cool element to the history of this period. I think Lee and Howe did a nice job in the trilogy of designing Minas Morgul, Cirith Ungol and (to a lesser extent) the Black Gates to reflect the ancient foundations corroded by orcish metalwork and wraith sorcery. It is unfortunate that this crypt idea will muddle the legendarium between the fall of Angmar and the events of the Hobbit, particularly the story of Earnur's foolish acceptance of the challenge of the Witch-King. This always struck me as one of the creepier sections of the tale of years; imagining the fate of Angmar's destroyer at the hands of the being he thought had been vanquished with the help of Glor. and the Lindon Elves is such a cool twist.
"After all, I believe that legends and myths are largely made of 'truth', and indeed present aspects of it that can only be received in this mode; and long ago certain truths and modes of this kind were discovered and must always reappear." Professor Tolkien, 1951
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AinurOlorin
Half-elven
Aug 21 2012, 5:50am
Post #19 of 46
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Their just were no crypts for them in the actual tale.
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There was a final, great battle in The North, in which the surviving Dunedain and Arnorians were joined by a host of Elves from Lindon, and a fleet came from Gondor, captained by Earnur. Finally a second Elf host came from Rivendell, lead by Glorfindel, and between them the armies of Angmar were utterly routed. Near the end, The Witch-King turned to bay and filled the Men of North and South with terror, so that they panicked and began to fall into disarray, but Glorfindel rode up, and The Witch King was daunted and fled from his approach, retreating into shadows and departing The North. Earnur attempted to give chase, but Glorfindel restrained him and made the famous prophecy, "he will not return to this land. . . far off is his doom, and not by the hand of a man shall he fall."
And that foretelling was proven true. The Witch King did not return to Northern Eraidor, at least not for more than a thousand years, until the coming of Frodo and the hunt for The One Ring in the final decades of The Third Age, and the story of his demise is well known.
after Sauron's defeat at the war of the last alliance the Dunedain hunted down the Nazgūl and sealed them in crypts? i thought the Nazgūl were in spirit form like Sauron? i mean were they skeletons that could move like in Army of Darkness? i assumed when the nine kings died they turned into "wraiths" neither living nor dead. PJ is changing this so he can include Nazgūl in TH but how did Tolkien say they escaped the crypts and when? because i thought the Nazgūl were lurking around dol-guldur and mordor for a long time before the events in LOTR's.
"Hear me, hounds of Sauron, Gandalf is here! Fly if you value your foul skins, I will shrivel you from tail to snout if you step within this circle!"
"Do not be to eager to deal out death in judgement. Even the very wise cannot see all ends."
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AinurOlorin
Half-elven
Aug 21 2012, 5:54am
Post #20 of 46
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The fall of Minas Ithil and its transformation to Minas Morgul is both iconic and legendary, and dreadful. Also iconic and legendary are Glorfindel's routing of The Witch-King and the prophecy he made. . . And the Battle itself. Elves out of Lindon and Rivendell, men out of Arnor and Gondor, all warring against The Nazgul Lord and those under his sway, for supremacy in The North. . .Epic. One would be hard pressed to come up with a more magnificent yet entirely organic scenario, and I doubt Jackson, Boyens, Walsh or Guillermo will prove able to do so.
Humor aside, the takeover of the various Numenorean watch-towers and forts by the wraiths is a cool element to the history of this period. I think Lee and Howe did a nice job in the trilogy of designing Minas Morgul, Cirith Ungol and (to a lesser extent) the Black Gates to reflect the ancient foundations corroded by orcish metalwork and wraith sorcery. It is unfortunate that this crypt idea will muddle the legendarium between the fall of Angmar and the events of the Hobbit, particularly the story of Earnur's foolish acceptance of the challenge of the Witch-King. This always struck me as one of the creepier sections of the tale of years; imagining the fate of Angmar's destroyer at the hands of the being he thought had been vanquished with the help of Glor. and the Lindon Elves is such a cool twist.
"Hear me, hounds of Sauron, Gandalf is here! Fly if you value your foul skins, I will shrivel you from tail to snout if you step within this circle!"
"Do not be to eager to deal out death in judgement. Even the very wise cannot see all ends."
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MouthofSauron
Tol Eressea
Aug 21 2012, 5:55am
Post #21 of 46
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thanks for the info btw. So, how is PJ changing things up again? he's removing their crypts story?
From the bottom of the Long-Lake a dragon shall be possessed...green lights glowing out of the deep waters shall be seen where the dragon fell...reanimated shall be Smaug that was killed...and the Dark Lord will fly over Middle-Earth unopposed...raining fire down upon his enemies...
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Shelob'sAppetite
Valinor
Aug 21 2012, 6:00am
Post #22 of 46
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If we might get a flashback of the defeat of the Witch-King by the Arnorians and the elven contingent led by Glorfindel, only extended from canon. Instead of Glorfindel and Earnur holding off, they chase him down and lock him in a crypt in Dol Guldur?
Seems unnecessary and convoluted, but at least it would give us a glimpse of that epic confrontation...
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MouthofSauron
Tol Eressea
Aug 21 2012, 6:23am
Post #23 of 46
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but remember regarding the rights WB owns...
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PJ stated at comic-con they do not own the rights for the silmarillion, only LOTR's and the appendixes, The Hobbit. It does seem a little off the beaten path to show that flashback, especially if the focus is going to be on the necromancer/sauron.
From the bottom of the Long-Lake a dragon shall be possessed...green lights glowing out of the deep waters shall be seen where the dragon fell...reanimated shall be Smaug that was killed...and the Dark Lord will fly over Middle-Earth unopposed...raining fire down upon his enemies...
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Shelob'sAppetite
Valinor
Aug 21 2012, 6:25am
Post #24 of 46
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Is in the Lord of the Rings Appendices, so WB certainly has the rights to it.
(This post was edited by Shelob'sAppetite on Aug 21 2012, 6:26am)
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MouthofSauron
Tol Eressea
Aug 21 2012, 6:27am
Post #25 of 46
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well nevermind than! but still i just don't see how they could fit that into the films.
From the bottom of the Long-Lake a dragon shall be possessed...green lights glowing out of the deep waters shall be seen where the dragon fell...reanimated shall be Smaug that was killed...and the Dark Lord will fly over Middle-Earth unopposed...raining fire down upon his enemies...
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