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Tolkien Estate HATES these movies?
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Shelob'sAppetite
Valinor

Aug 19 2012, 8:40pm

Post #201 of 245 (1373 views)
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Brevity [In reply to] Can't Post

May be the soul of wit, but it is also the soul of "not having enough time to write novels on messageboards, because one should be working." Smile

I waste far too much time here as it is!

I try my best to include context for my offerings, but I do believe certain things should be implied. I, and most others here, are well aware of the financial and critical success of the films, such as they are. So, I am not likely to make reference to that each time I criticise the films.

On the subject at hand, I will say that in context of the great scripts recognized by film historians and aficionados and such, LOTR may prove rather poor. But it is impossible to project the future with a high degree of certainty, so I can only surmise.

IMO, these films will not stand the test of time very well. And their scripts won't either.


geordie
Tol Eressea

Aug 19 2012, 8:51pm

Post #202 of 245 (1395 views)
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It's pret-ty banal, isn't it? [In reply to] Can't Post

- I'm just waiting for this so-called 'quote' to become common currency on the interweb:

"Who sits by the window will one day see rain. - J.R.R. Tolkien"

Tongue


geordie
Tol Eressea

Aug 19 2012, 9:04pm

Post #203 of 245 (1358 views)
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Here's another one, from the same page - [In reply to] Can't Post

“If by my life or death I can protect you, I will. ”
J.R.R. Tolkien, The Fellowship of the Ring

Now I've been criticised for pointing things out without providing an alternative reading; but in this case -- Smile-- I'd like to put this up as a test question: Can anyone tell me what the actual quote is?

.


(This post was edited by geordie on Aug 19 2012, 9:05pm)


Gwytha
Rohan


Aug 19 2012, 9:18pm

Post #204 of 245 (1386 views)
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Are you referring to..? [In reply to] Can't Post

"But I am the real Strider, fortunately," he said, looking down at them with his face softened by a sudden smile. "I am Aragorn son of Arathorn; and if by life or death I can save you, I will."

We are plain quiet folk and have no use for adventures. Nasty disturbing uncomfortable things! Make you late for dinner!


(This post was edited by Gwytha on Aug 19 2012, 9:22pm)


geordie
Tol Eressea

Aug 19 2012, 9:52pm

Post #205 of 245 (1352 views)
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Yes, that's it. :-) // [In reply to] Can't Post

 


grammaboodawg
Immortal


Aug 19 2012, 10:37pm

Post #206 of 245 (1375 views)
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*high five* Yeppers :) [In reply to] Can't Post

That's exactly what I was Tolkien about ;)

*hugs*


sample

I really need these new films to take me back to, and not re-introduce me to, that magical world.




TORn's Observations Lists
Unused Scenes



grammaboodawg
Immortal


Aug 19 2012, 10:42pm

Post #207 of 245 (1368 views)
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Well... [In reply to] Can't Post

I completely respect Mr. Tolkien's feelings and opinion. I've always accepted and understood this. As Elizabeth said, I was talking about the assumption that the films were directed at a very narrow market of young men when the films were first released, and how some still have that opinion.

I can see where my comments could be misunderstood :)


sample

I really need these new films to take me back to, and not re-introduce me to, that magical world.




TORn's Observations Lists
Unused Scenes



(This post was edited by grammaboodawg on Aug 19 2012, 10:46pm)


imin
Valinor


Aug 19 2012, 11:46pm

Post #208 of 245 (1318 views)
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Did C. Tolkien say it was aimed at young males? [In reply to] Can't Post

From the le monde interview he says young people - never saying it was made for either sex, just for people between the ages of 15-25, an action movie. Now C.Tolkien may have said they were aimed at young men in another interview but from the le monde one (the one i have been thinking everyone is referring to) he does not.

I think most fast paced action movies are wanting to reach as broad an audience as possible but do have a target audience, most likely people (either sex) of that age range.

Take the avengers - fast paced action movie - aimed at comic book fans and young adults. Though it has had unbelievable box office success so it is appealing to a wide audience. It still will have had a target audience in mind - young people.


Spaldron
Rivendell


Aug 20 2012, 12:07am

Post #209 of 245 (1291 views)
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If you had said this... [In reply to] Can't Post


Quote
IMO, these films will not stand the test of time very well. And their scripts won't either.


....ten years ago people might have taken you seriously but as the films seem to be standing the test of time very well more than ten years on (and show no signs of getting old) then I have to frankly call you out on that one. Especially considering films age so quickly these days (just look at the SW prequels for examples of rapid ageing).

"A single dream is more powerful than a thousand realities."


grammaboodawg
Immortal


Aug 20 2012, 1:55am

Post #210 of 245 (1315 views)
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That that I'm aware of. [In reply to] Can't Post

I tend to jump around when I talk about things. The specific audience of young males I was talking about were articles and television interviews wih reviewers that mentioned it being so popular with young males. Made with young males in mind. Even Elijah Wood talked about that assumption and how surprised many were that so many females and people of all agest were fans of the films.

This assumption was more during the first year or two of the LotR film releases; but it still crops up every once in a while. I wasn't talking about any specific article :)


sample

I really need these new films to take me back to, and not re-introduce me to, that magical world.




TORn's Observations Lists
Unused Scenes



RosieLass
Valinor


Aug 20 2012, 4:11am

Post #211 of 245 (1408 views)
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Silverlode's post should be pretty much the last word on this thread. [In reply to] Can't Post

Peter Jackson & Co. (and all of us as well) owe all the respect in the world to the creative genius of JRRT Tolkien and the literary efforts of Christopher Tolkien and the Tolkien Estate. Without them there would be no books, and without the books PJ would have no movies.

Christopher Tolkien and the Estate "owe" nobody anything. CT understands his father's work in a way PJ can only dream he does, and it's base presumption to suggest that it's CT who should be meek and grateful.

"BOTH [political] extremes are dangerous. But more dangerous are team fanboys who think all the extremists are on the OTHER side." (CNN reader comment)

It is always those with the fewest sensible things to say who make the loudest noise in saying them. --Precious Ramotswe (Alexander McCall Smith)

(This post was edited by RosieLass on Aug 20 2012, 4:12am)


Shelob'sAppetite
Valinor

Aug 20 2012, 5:51am

Post #212 of 245 (1269 views)
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Amen, Rosie [In reply to] Can't Post

Honestly, this is one of the most bizarre conversations I have ever participated in...


geordie
Tol Eressea

Aug 20 2012, 6:11am

Post #213 of 245 (1288 views)
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No. [In reply to] Can't Post

He didn't use the word 'Hate', either.
.


geordie
Tol Eressea

Aug 20 2012, 6:12am

Post #214 of 245 (1215 views)
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Exactly! // [In reply to] Can't Post

 


sador
Half-elven


Aug 20 2012, 7:06am

Post #215 of 245 (1320 views)
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Not quite exact. [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
Peter Jackson & Co. (and all of us as well) owe all the respect in the world to the creative genius of JRRT Tolkien and the literary efforts of Christopher Tolkien and the Tolkien Estate. Without them there would be no books, and without the books PJ would have no movies.


The books were out there before Christopher became executor of his fathers literary legacy, and the right to make the films were also sold before that. So he would have movies without the literary effort of Christopher and the Estate. After all, everything published by Christopher (such as The Quest of Erebor) is off-limits.

"This chapter seems to be full of movement—slowly and deliberately (then less so) down hills; scrambling up trees-- then up, up, and away into the Eagles’ eyrie; and down, down back to the ground.
Flora, fauna, food, fear, and flight are featured..."
- batik



The weekly discussion of The Hobbit is back. Join us in the Reading Room for a somewhat less clever discussion of Out of the Frying Pan-into the Fire!


sador
Half-elven


Aug 20 2012, 7:09am

Post #216 of 245 (1209 views)
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Psst geordie... [In reply to] Can't Post

It is in Fog on the Barrow-downs, is it not?

And at least Frodo's journey at the end of the book could be seen as having to do with death - at the very least, he is leaving the lands of the living forever.

"This chapter seems to be full of movement—slowly and deliberately (then less so) down hills; scrambling up trees-- then up, up, and away into the Eagles’ eyrie; and down, down back to the ground.
Flora, fauna, food, fear, and flight are featured..."
- batik



The weekly discussion of The Hobbit is back. Join us in the Reading Room for a somewhat less clever discussion of Out of the Frying Pan-into the Fire!


imin
Valinor


Aug 20 2012, 7:44am

Post #217 of 245 (1301 views)
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Oh ok [In reply to] Can't Post

Just you were saying you take C.Tolkien's views personally and you were getting those from the interview, i was just wondering which interview this was if not the one in le monde.

I think some people have said the films are aimed at young males, however C.Tolkien has not (to my knowledge) said this, though he has said they are aimed at young people - something i think they definitely are - which there is nothing wrong about either. Just so happens they were liked by many of all ages, sexes, races.


On another point. What i get from reading C.Tolkien's views on the films, its not so much the films (as films), he is criticizing but more how they have (in his view) commercialized his fathers works - making it all about a race to get to mount doom, taking out all the beauty and seriousness of the books.

I think he is too close to the material to ever be happy with any adaptation of his fathers work. I think its a shame he cannot see that from the films have come many more readers of the books and money (after years of dispute from new line cinema).

I think to him people understanding and getting what ME is, is more important than an increase in book sales - was already in the hundreds of millions. As this seems to be his main problem with what the films have done in his opinion.

At the end of the day his is fully entitled to that opinion and i can see where he is coming from and i think if i were his age, having lived and breathed the works for my entire life and had it all made by my father i to would feel the same as he does.


ElendilTheShort
Gondor


Aug 20 2012, 7:59am

Post #218 of 245 (1265 views)
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He is not [In reply to] Can't Post

leaving the lands of the living. All in Valinor were alive and Frodo got to live out his remaining mortal life there.


Zubeneschamali
The Shire

Aug 20 2012, 9:57am

Post #219 of 245 (1304 views)
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Far green country [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
but wait; Gandalf's comments on the far country come from the movies, not from JRR.


In the DVD extras, the makers note that these beautiful words from Tolkien are moved to a different place, a different character and a different purpose. They seem quite pleased with themselves. McKellen notes that it's a bit problematic that an older war-leader is telling a young soldier that he'll go to Heaven if he falls in battle, an old, old story, but nobody remarks on the fact that:

Gandalf straight out tells Pippin that Hobbits go to Valinor when they die!

WTF???


Lacrimae Rerum
Grey Havens

Aug 20 2012, 12:18pm

Post #220 of 245 (1209 views)
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Well that rather depends [In reply to] Can't Post

How literally one takes it. I always took it to be a metaphor - especially with the references to the "grey rain curtain" and "silver glass".

I don't think Gandalf was describing a direct journey to Valinor.

LR


Phibbus
Rohan


Aug 20 2012, 12:46pm

Post #221 of 245 (1166 views)
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I'm with you on this [In reply to] Can't Post

Tom Shippey has likewise seen the transposition of the "Far Green Country" bit in a favorable light. While I usually find myself pretty firmly in accord with his thinking, in this instance, I find the attempt to preserve an element from the original runs amiss.

For all his Catholicism, Tolkien keeps formal religion and strict predictions of an afterlife (at least for us mortals) pretty firmly out of Middle-earth. It is important for the whole unfolding of his legendarium that the premise be kept which is laid out at its beginning—that mortals do not know what happens when they die. That is the Gift of Illúvatar to the secondborn, and, once arrived at, Tolkien sticks to it throughout his published Middle-earth writings. Characters may accept it, affirm it, rebel against it, or attempt to get around it, but they are not given direct promise of a "something better to come" after the inevitability of death; only that death itself, the ability to escape the confines of the world, is a "gift."

Now, we can argue (as we have already begun to do) whether or not the "Far Green Country" vision and its reiteration are simply foreshadowing and follow-through of Frodo's eventual passing into the West or Tolkien's metaphor for an afterlife promised to all of us (and affirmed by his faith.) I suspect it is both. However, I think it is a big point that Tolkien does not directly express the latter but leaves it open to interpretation. I think it certain that he would not have had Gandlaf (or any other character) say it outright.

Man is but an ass if he go about to expound this dream.

(This post was edited by Phibbus on Aug 20 2012, 12:51pm)


Patty
Immortal


Aug 20 2012, 3:39pm

Post #222 of 245 (1223 views)
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Can somebody say... [In reply to] Can't Post

AMEN.

"For starters, he should see the average age of TORn's regular board members."


Of course, there are those of us who are here out of loyalty to the books only. But I think it's pretty evident that most of us like/love the movies, too, even if we think there are flaws.


Permanent address: Into the West






Shelob'sAppetite
Valinor

Aug 20 2012, 4:01pm

Post #223 of 245 (1196 views)
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It seems to me [In reply to] Can't Post

That there are a decent number of people here who do not like the LOTR films very much...

But yes, I would say most here on TORN either like or love them.


geordie
Tol Eressea

Aug 20 2012, 5:02pm

Post #224 of 245 (1174 views)
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Let's have a look... [In reply to] Can't Post

...Oops! Quite right - Fog on the Barrow-Downs it is.

Though I don't agree that they're leaving the land of the living; as has been said, people in the Undying Lands are alive, and Frodo lives out his life there. BTW - as I recall, Frodo doesn't go to Valinor, but to Tol Eressea.
.


Patty
Immortal


Aug 20 2012, 6:28pm

Post #225 of 245 (1161 views)
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A decent number... [In reply to] Can't Post

but I'd say, from years of observation, that they are not the majority. It looks like most like/love them. No offense, but that's just how I see it.

Permanent address: Into the West





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