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The One Ring Forums: Tolkien Topics: Main:
Tolkien Estate HATES these movies?
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JWPlatt
Grey Havens


Aug 19 2012, 5:59pm

Post #176 of 245 (1353 views)
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Single Dream [In reply to] Can't Post

If there is a problem, you should elaborate with a solution.

In any case, the quote is attributed here...

http://www.goodreads.com/...656983.J_R_R_Tolkien

...as well as by a Weta Workshop video, as you noted in your January 1 post saying the same thing but again providing no corrected attribution.


Otaku-sempai
Half-elven


Aug 19 2012, 6:00pm

Post #177 of 245 (1399 views)
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Your reasoning is flawed... [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
So you are saying the Tolkien Estate should not be compensated for (the increased) sales of the books - the original works upon which all else is based - if they don't like the movies? That's absurd. I'd like to see your source that defines a "massive increase" in sales.



Why should the Estate be compensated for making more profits from book sales? That makes no sense whatsoever and is a completely separate issue, besides. It is the profits directly generated by the films that was the subject of disagreement between the Tolkien Estate and the studios. Hollywood accountants have a long tradition of creative bookkeeping. I'm not defending the practice, just pointing out the reality of it.

"Good and ill have not changed since yesteryear; nor are they one thing among Elves and Dwarves and another among Men. It is a man's part to discern them, as much in the Golden Wood as in his own house." - Aragorn


Spaldron
Rivendell


Aug 19 2012, 6:03pm

Post #178 of 245 (1345 views)
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Oops. [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
...slightly off-topic here - ref, your sig.

"A single dream is more powerful than a thousand realities."

- that isn't by Tolkien, y'know.

Smile


Damn, you would think that considering the amount of sites that claim it to be. Mad

(Must find new sig. )

"A single dream is more powerful than a thousand realities."


JWPlatt
Grey Havens


Aug 19 2012, 6:10pm

Post #179 of 245 (1385 views)
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Profits [In reply to] Can't Post

The Estate should be compensated for book sales if there is an agreement that they be paid x for each book sold regardless of anything else. Do you believe it is instead the case that they got a one-time fee from the publisher for the right to sell unlimited books and not per-book?

Also Spaldron clarified that he was "referring to the royalties from the massive increases in book sales (millions apparently) as a result of the films popularity, not the royalties from the films themselves." So that entered the discussion.


(This post was edited by JWPlatt on Aug 19 2012, 6:10pm)


JWPlatt
Grey Havens


Aug 19 2012, 6:12pm

Post #180 of 245 (1311 views)
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Due Diligence [In reply to] Can't Post

I wouldn't change it until it is proved to be from another source. geordie only claims it was not Tolkien, but provides no alternative.


(This post was edited by JWPlatt on Aug 19 2012, 6:14pm)


Otaku-sempai
Half-elven


Aug 19 2012, 6:14pm

Post #181 of 245 (1300 views)
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You misunderstand me. [In reply to] Can't Post

What I am stating is that the profits from book sales is a matter between the Estate and the publisher and is something that is likely already provided for in existing contracts. The Estate is doubtless automatically seeing increased royalties from book sales; however, if that is not the case then the issue is with the publisher, not the film studio. It has nothing to do with the films.

Yes, the Tolkien Estate should be receiving agreed upon percentages from the films' profits. Hollywood accounting is often suspect and there is a long-standing tendency to hide profits so as not to have to abide to written agreements.

"Good and ill have not changed since yesteryear; nor are they one thing among Elves and Dwarves and another among Men. It is a man's part to discern them, as much in the Golden Wood as in his own house." - Aragorn

(This post was edited by Otaku-sempai on Aug 19 2012, 6:20pm)


Morthoron
Gondor


Aug 19 2012, 6:16pm

Post #182 of 245 (1383 views)
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I concur, JW... [In reply to] Can't Post

I've not once slighted PJ for his spectacular cinematography, the look and feel of Middle-earth with the assists of Lee, Howe and Weta, or even switching dialogue from one book character to another (which was done in most instances to marvelous effect).

However, it is the unnecessary script changes (yes, unnecessary and blithely inane in most instances) that prove most irksome and has left the movies unwatchable for me. One is often left scratching their head at some of the "creative license" taken with the original plot -- changes that did not in any way improve upon the original story:

Elrond whining about "Arwen is dying", the goofy warg attack with gangrel hyena-like creatures and Aragorn falling off a cliff (only to be resuscitated by a french kiss from his horse), the cartoonish disennoblement of Denethor, the debasement of Faramir (and the long sequence of Faramir dragging Frodo and Sam to Osgiliath with Frodo offering the Ring to a Nazgul), the green scrubbing bubbles eradicating Sauron's army from Minas Tirith while Legolas surfs down a Mumakil's trunk (thus rendering Rohan's incredibly brave charge utterly useless), the WiKi breaking Gandalf's staff and knocking him to the ground like some dottering old fool -- the list is endless, and not some mere episodic annoyance.

The host of changes were senseless and detracted from the original story and account for countless minutes of screen time better served for character development (not character assassination) or sequences from the original plot that were thought unnecessary in comparison to the scriptwriters' self-aggrandizement (and couldn't we all have lived without the fifteen or so minutes of Aragorn falling off a cliff, or Faramir dragging the hobbits to Osgiliath? They served no important purpose in furthering the plot). Jackson, Boyens, et al, thought they could improvise better, but frankly it was a waste of time. The films most defintitely would be better, and sadly it did not require rocket science to leave well enough alone.

Honestly, wasn't it more stirring hearing phrases uttered from Tolkien's original story (no matter which character said the dialogue) rather than "Arwen is dying" or "Sam, go home", or Frodo, alone and wounded, bravely fending off the Nazgul at the Ford, rather than Xenarwen calling up the flood without the aid of a Ring of Power? Where'd she get that power, and why didn't she just go and defeat Sauron single-handedly?

And now PJ wants to stretch The Hobbit into three movies? Does anyone else get the sinking feeling that the comedic, linear quasi-epic of a hapless and fat Hobbit turned unlikely and lucky hero that has endeared itself to generations of loyal readers will be completely lost in a flood of unsupported and fan-fictional subplots where Tauriel and handsomely undwarf-like dwarves cavort about with Mary-Sue action-adventure poses, spouting ludicrous dialogue?

I fear the scripting more than I would Smaug in person.

Peter Jackson offers great promise with his films. The visual uniqueness, the virtual depth and breadth of his conception of Middle-earth are at times magnificent, leaving one viscerally tingling and emotionally awed. He may be a Michaelangelo from a visual presentation point, but out of the mouth of such Olympian figures comes the voice of Donald Duck.

That is what is most infuriating: to see such awesome sights and be disappointed by so much extraneous and inept material.

Please visit my blog...The Dark Elf File...a slighty skewed journal of music and literary comment, fan-fiction and interminable essays.



geordie
Tol Eressea

Aug 19 2012, 6:39pm

Post #183 of 245 (1349 views)
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Yes, it's misleading, isn't it? [In reply to] Can't Post

 I was hoping you'd respond - sorry if any posters here thought I was being anything but sincere. I was asking about this 'quote' some time ago, and a very knowledgable ToRnsib solved the problem for me: it comes, not from JRR, but from the poster for Bakshi's movie. There's a picture here:

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/LORD-RINGS-ORIGINAL-U-S-ONE-SHEET-MOVIE-POSTER-RALPH-BAKSHI-/110841106540?_trksid=m263&_trkparms=algo%3DSIC%26its%3DI%26itu%3DUCI%252BIA%252BUA%252B
FICS%252BUFI%26otn%3D10%26pmod%3D7614783111%26ps%3D50

sorry - that link is way too long; hope it works ok. The relevant part of the hype reads:

"JRR Tolkien triumphed with the perception that a single dream is more powerful than a thousand realities."

So there we are; advertising hype. Though I haven't has any success so far with another so-called quote from the page which JW linked to:

'"Little by little, one travels far." - J.R.R. Tolkien'

If JRR wrote that, I'm a Dutchman!

Smile


(This post was edited by geordie on Aug 19 2012, 6:45pm)


geordie
Tol Eressea

Aug 19 2012, 6:49pm

Post #184 of 245 (1325 views)
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Here's another one - [In reply to] Can't Post

“The greatest adventure is what lies ahead.
Today and tomorrow are yet to be said.
The chances, the changes are all yours to make.
The mold of your life is in your hands to break.”
J.R.R. Tolkien

- That's on the same Tolkien quotes page. It's from one of the cartoon movies, isn't it? Schmaltzy! Not like Tolkien at all, at all.


Tongue


(This post was edited by geordie on Aug 19 2012, 6:51pm)


Elizabeth
Valinor


Aug 19 2012, 6:50pm

Post #185 of 245 (1423 views)
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The issue isn't liking vs. not liking in this case. [In reply to] Can't Post

Gramma feels "minimized and ignored" by the assumption that the movies are directed at young males. I entirely agree with her. When they were in theatres a number of critics expressed bafflement at how well the box office figures were doing, given that the movies "only appealed to young males", completely ignoring the huge numbers of females in every audience (and tending to dominate late in the run with repeat viewers).

CT's objection that the movies were just for young males isn't necessarily based on his viewing and not liking the movies, it was a widespread opinion at the time. I think it's entirely possible that his disapproval is based on that perceived focus, not an independently-derived opinion.






Join us NOW in the Reading Room for detailed discussions of The Hobbit, July 9-Nov. 18!

Elizabeth is the TORnsib formerly known as 'erather'


JWPlatt
Grey Havens


Aug 19 2012, 6:52pm

Post #186 of 245 (1349 views)
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Single Dream... [In reply to] Can't Post

That poster might still have used the Tolkien quote. The existence of the poster does not disprove the attribution, but may in fact support it.

I found a post on the Help.com website which claims, "It has been confirmed by Lord of the Rings Blu Ray Extended Edition Extra Features that this is indeed a J.R.R Tolkein quote." I don't think it depends on the Blu-ray edition, but on any edition that contains the "extra features." So the next step would be to confirm the attribution on the disks, then confirm where *they* got the attribution.


Otaku-sempai
Half-elven


Aug 19 2012, 6:54pm

Post #187 of 245 (1258 views)
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Loosely based on a passage or two by Tolkien... [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
“The greatest adventure is what lies ahead.
Today and tomorrow are yet to be said.
The chances, the changes are all yours to make.
The mold of your life is in your hands to break.”
J.R.R. Tolkien



No, not a direct quote by any means.

"Good and ill have not changed since yesteryear; nor are they one thing among Elves and Dwarves and another among Men. It is a man's part to discern them, as much in the Golden Wood as in his own house." - Aragorn


geordie
Tol Eressea

Aug 19 2012, 7:09pm

Post #188 of 245 (1307 views)
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I think the makers of the EE probably got it from a quotes site [In reply to] Can't Post

- esp. if they really did mis-spell Tolkien's name.

The thing is, I've been reading works by and about Tolkien for many years now, and I've never heard of that 'quote' before. It certainly doesn't read (to me) like anything he would have thought or said; fundamentally it has no meaning. It's far more likely that this 'perception' is on the part of the copywriter than JRR himself.

As in all these cases, it's up to the people claiming these things as 'quotes' to actually say where Tolkien actually said it. There's a lot of rubbish about Tolkien out there on the net; try googling Tolkien and Nepal and you get this -

The secluded town of Pokhara lies 200km (125 miles) west of Kathmandu in the centre of Nepal on Lake Phewa. No other place in the world commands such a view of the Himalayas. It is a starting point for mountaineers and trekkers, and was at one time the home of JRR Tolkien.

Some people seem to have taken this at face value - at one time, it was repeated around the net. It isn't true, though.





(This post was edited by geordie on Aug 19 2012, 7:12pm)


geordie
Tol Eressea

Aug 19 2012, 7:11pm

Post #189 of 245 (1261 views)
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Actually, I can't put my finger on what those passages might be - [In reply to] Can't Post

- can you tell us which ones you're thinking of?
.


Otaku-sempai
Half-elven


Aug 19 2012, 7:25pm

Post #190 of 245 (1318 views)
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Specifically? [In reply to] Can't Post

Without finding the exact quotes, I was thinking of Gandalf's comments on the Far Country (beyond death) and his famous comment about accomplishing what one is able to with the time remaining to oneself.

"Good and ill have not changed since yesteryear; nor are they one thing among Elves and Dwarves and another among Men. It is a man's part to discern them, as much in the Golden Wood as in his own house." - Aragorn


Magpie
Immortal


Aug 19 2012, 7:38pm

Post #191 of 245 (1346 views)
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The net is like a petri dish - everything grows well in it [In reply to] Can't Post

A long time ago.. maybe 10 years ago... I tried finding the lyrics to a song I wanted to use in a classroom unit. I found some that made no sense at all. I found those same nonsensical lyrics one dozens and dozens of sites. I kept at it and finally found some that made sense and sounded plausible in terms of what I was hearing when I listened and that indicated those nonsensical ones could easily be mondegreens.

I don't think dozens and dozens of people came up with the same mistaken lyrics. I think one person posted mistaken lyrics and dozens and dozens of people copied them. The number of sites quoting those mistaken lyrics was a bit staggering when one thinks it was was *wrong* information - and it was a good lesson in that all those dozens and dozen sites didn't care at all about accuracy. In the end, for many sites, accuracy isn't the ultimate goal. Clicks are. It doesn't matter what's on that page as long as it gets them clicks.

When I started putting information on the web in regards the LOTR soundtracks, I did my upmost best to verify every piece of information I found that I wished to use and to cite as much information as possible so readers could know where my info was coming from. I might put something I couldn't verify up, but I would label it as such: "Here it is... but I can't verify it"

I don't have time to verify every thing I run across in real life before I might throw it out there in leisure. But I keep a critical sense of 'unless I do verify it, I can't really know if it's true.'

I once ran across a quote 'by Tolkien' on one of those quote sites and it was something I'd never run across before (in my own readings) nor did it sound quite like Tolkien. I wish I could remember what it was. I think I asked people about it - wondering if anyone else had run across it and could attribute it but it must not have been on these boards (I can't find it in a search). What drives me nuts about those quote sites is that they dump quotes from the movies (not from the books), quotes from characters (from the books and/or movies), and quotes from Tolkien all together with almost no attribution. I want to know who said, it: Tolkien? Gandalf in the book? Gandalf in the book and the movie? Or Gandalf only in the movie? (by rights, if it's only in the movie it's not a Tolkien quote but that's another layer of fussiness). I want to know where the quote is from. What book or what letter or what speech.

I have used those quote sites in the past but I don't much anymore. I just find them too vague. And just like anything that gathers its content from any user who wishes to register and submit, it's too risky. I'm trusting someone I don't know and I know that too many people aren't half as scrupulous as I am about stuff and I'm only half as scrupulous as others might be.


LOTR soundtrack website ~ magpie avatar gallery
TORn History Mathom-house ~ Torn Image Posting Guide


geordie
Tol Eressea

Aug 19 2012, 7:46pm

Post #192 of 245 (1239 views)
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Ah, thanks for that - [In reply to] Can't Post

but wait; Gandalf's comments on the far country come from the movies, not from JRR. In LotR, as you'll recall, the dream of the 'far green country under a swift sunrise' comes to Frodo in the house of Tom Bombadil. (FotR, 'A Knife in the Dark) - and then the narrator reminds us of this dream, at very nearly the end of the book.

But Frodo's journey has nothing to so with death.
.


AinurOlorin
Half-elven


Aug 19 2012, 7:54pm

Post #193 of 245 (1270 views)
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Very well said, JWplatt [In reply to] Can't Post

and I largely agree.

In Reply To
In his uniquely extreme way, Shelob represents my more moderate view about screen writers who think they know better - audience be damned. They'll kill off beloved characters with impunity ostensibly in the name of character-driven story when in reality they get a thrill from snuffing someone else's work in the name of drama because they can't think of anything better to invest in the existing franchise. See Kirk in Generations or Newt, Bishop and Hicks in Alien 3. Or they'll not give the audience what they want because they think they're smarter than us and are not imaginative enough to actually answer questions with direct linkage and still make things fresh and surprising. See Prometheus. See anything Chris Carter does. Or they'll have stupid scientists and two women running in a straight line under a gazillion ton rolling space ship instead of running to the side. See Prometheus again. Or they will change Faramir, have Frodo say "Go home, Sam," change plot and motivation and feel superior about it. I know I'd feel at least a little better about writers who do these things if I ever once hear them say "That was a bad decision -mea culpa."


"Hear me, hounds of Sauron, Gandalf is here! Fly if you value your foul skins, I will shrivel you from tail to snout if you step within this circle!"

"Do not be to eager to deal out death in judgement. Even the very wise cannot see all ends."


dernwyn
Forum Admin / Moderator


Aug 19 2012, 7:55pm

Post #194 of 245 (1257 views)
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LOL! Yes, those are the lyrics to the Rankin-Bass "Hobbit" theme song! [In reply to] Can't Post

Here's a link, with the pertinent info at the bottom of the page: http://www.jjjwebdevelopment.com/...ong/hobbitsong.shtml

Definitely not written by Tolkien, no not at all, preciousss!


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

"I desired dragons with a profound desire"

"It struck me last night that you might write a fearfully good romantic drama, with as much of the 'supernatural' as you cared to introduce. Have you ever thought of it?"
-Geoffrey B. Smith, letter to JRR Tolkien, 1915




AinurOlorin
Half-elven


Aug 19 2012, 8:01pm

Post #195 of 245 (1275 views)
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I cannot do much other than bow my acknowledgent of the general accuracy of this post [In reply to] Can't Post

There are a couple things you mentioned which didn't bother me too muh. . . and some other things which went unmentioned that bother me horribly still. But generally your points are both insightful and well made. I applaud your commentary.

In Reply To
I've not once slighted PJ for his spectacular cinematography, the look and feel of Middle-earth with the assists of Lee, Howe and Weta, or even switching dialogue from one book character to another (which was done in most instances to marvelous effect).

However, it is the unnecessary script changes (yes, unnecessary and blithely inane in most instances) that prove most irksome and has left the movies unwatchable for me. One is often left scratching their head at some of the "creative license" taken with the original plot -- changes that did not in any way improve upon the original story:

Elrond whining about "Arwen is dying", the goofy warg attack with gangrel hyena-like creatures and Aragorn falling off a cliff (only to be resuscitated by a french kiss from his horse), the cartoonish disennoblement of Denethor, the debasement of Faramir (and the long sequence of Faramir dragging Frodo and Sam to Osgiliath with Frodo offering the Ring to a Nazgul), the green scrubbing bubbles eradicating Sauron's army from Minas Tirith while Legolas surfs down a Mumakil's trunk (thus rendering Rohan's incredibly brave charge utterly useless), the WiKi breaking Gandalf's staff and knocking him to the ground like some dottering old fool -- the list is endless, and not some mere episodic annoyance.

The host of changes were senseless and detracted from the original story and account for countless minutes of screen time better served for character development (not character assassination) or sequences from the original plot that were thought unnecessary in comparison to the scriptwriters' self-aggrandizement (and couldn't we all have lived without the fifteen or so minutes of Aragorn falling off a cliff, or Faramir dragging the hobbits to Osgiliath? They served no important purpose in furthering the plot). Jackson, Boyens, et al, thought they could improvise better, but frankly it was a waste of time. The films most defintitely would be better, and sadly it did not require rocket science to leave well enough alone.

Honestly, wasn't it more stirring hearing phrases uttered from Tolkien's original story (no matter which character said the dialogue) rather than "Arwen is dying" or "Sam, go home", or Frodo, alone and wounded, bravely fending off the Nazgul at the Ford, rather than Xenarwen calling up the flood without the aid of a Ring of Power? Where'd she get that power, and why didn't she just go and defeat Sauron single-handedly?

And now PJ wants to stretch The Hobbit into three movies? Does anyone else get the sinking feeling that the comedic, linear quasi-epic of a hapless and fat Hobbit turned unlikely and lucky hero that has endeared itself to generations of loyal readers will be completely lost in a flood of unsupported and fan-fictional subplots where Tauriel and handsomely undwarf-like dwarves cavort about with Mary-Sue action-adventure poses, spouting ludicrous dialogue?

I fear the scripting more than I would Smaug in person.

Peter Jackson offers great promise with his films. The visual uniqueness, the virtual depth and breadth of his conception of Middle-earth are at times magnificent, leaving one viscerally tingling and emotionally awed. He may be a Michaelangelo from a visual presentation point, but out of the mouth of such Olympian figures comes the voice of Donald Duck.

That is what is most infuriating: to see such awesome sights and be disappointed by so much extraneous and inept material.


"Hear me, hounds of Sauron, Gandalf is here! Fly if you value your foul skins, I will shrivel you from tail to snout if you step within this circle!"

"Do not be to eager to deal out death in judgement. Even the very wise cannot see all ends."


Shelob'sAppetite
Valinor

Aug 19 2012, 8:09pm

Post #196 of 245 (1223 views)
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Well, that's because I find it very tiresome [In reply to] Can't Post

To continually type "IMO" into my posts.

When I make a statement that is clearly on a subject that is a matter of opinion, just assume that I am expressing my opinion!

For now, I will oblige. I think the screenplay is shoddy.


geordie
Tol Eressea

Aug 19 2012, 8:12pm

Post #197 of 245 (1233 views)
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As can be seen - [In reply to] Can't Post

- I'm not half as scrupulous as you, much of the time. Smile

I love the word mondegreen! Never heard it before. I wonder what Tolkien thought of it?

.


geordie
Tol Eressea

Aug 19 2012, 8:19pm

Post #198 of 245 (1247 views)
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Well said [In reply to] Can't Post

- to go further; I never type IMHO either. I don't hold any humble opinions; only opinions which are informed (to the best of my knowledge and ability). Usually I back them up straight away with facts and quotes; sometimes I just air them in the hope that they'll spark a question or discussion. Sometimes it works; sometimes it don't.

Smile


(This post was edited by geordie on Aug 19 2012, 8:21pm)


Lacrimae Rerum
Grey Havens

Aug 19 2012, 8:25pm

Post #199 of 245 (1214 views)
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Maybe it's the brevity [In reply to] Can't Post

You could always try a fuller context description and see how that worked out?

Something like "I know they won some great awards and millions of people like the films that are founded on them but to my own eye they seem shoddy"

You never know....

LR


Gwytha
Rohan


Aug 19 2012, 8:28pm

Post #200 of 245 (1280 views)
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I'm sure it wasn't a ploy [In reply to] Can't Post

I think PJ pretty well understands the Estate's feelings toward the films. I feel frustrated that I probably won't live long enough to see the Sil filmed because of what sometimes feels like obtuseness on the part of Christopher Tolkien.

But when I really think about it I can understand his point of view. I don't think Tolkien would have been happy with the films, and I think its very common for writers to be unhappy with the films of their works. In addition for his concern for preserving the integrity of his father's work, CT must also be influenced by how upset he thinks his father would have been made by filmed versions of his works. If you've lost a beloved parent, you don't stop caring about their feelings however hypothetical they might be. CT's relationship to his father's work is a long and complicated one. For example, it seems to me that JRRT was quite anxious to receive his advance for the Hobbit in order to pay for young Christopher's medical bills.

Much as I would love to see the Sil filmed, I don't think its fair to judge Christopher Tolkien for his point of view on the matter.

We are plain quiet folk and have no use for adventures. Nasty disturbing uncomfortable things! Make you late for dinner!

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