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Tolkien Estate HATES these movies?
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macfalk
Valinor


Aug 19 2012, 9:05am

Post #151 of 245 (1267 views)
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This [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To

Quote
So you are saying the Tolkien Estate should not be compensated for (the increased) sales of the books -


No I didn't say that. What I was trying to say was that if they're prepared to enjoy the fruits of Peter Jackson's labours then maybe they should lay off the criticism a tad.


Quote





The greatest adventure is what lies ahead.


Tigero
Rivendell

Aug 19 2012, 9:42am

Post #152 of 245 (1308 views)
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Yes it still has parts that would deserve an oscar on their own [In reply to] Can't Post

But overall the films aren't worthy of the books.

Pessimists have no disappointments.


Silverlode
Forum Admin / Moderator


Aug 19 2012, 10:19am

Post #153 of 245 (1333 views)
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But... [In reply to] Can't Post

it's the other way round, really...PJ and Co are profiting off Tolkien's labors. This is the whole point of copyright , after all. They didn't choose PJ to direct (they had no say since the rights were held by Zaentz), they don't have to like what PJ does, they are under no obligation at all to be grateful to him - and they are entitled to their profits no matter what they think of the movies.

This demand that they appreciate the same things the fans do strikes me as a strange form of the common celebrity actor dilemma: fans like what actors do and come to think that they own them in some way, that they are obligated to please them and become very demanding and critical when in fact the actor is not the property of the public, even though the business they are in provides a popular service to the public. They are still entitled to some privacy and autonomy - or ought to be, in my opinion. The combination of adulation and criticism can be very toxic.

In the same way that we ought to allow other members of these boards to hold opinions different from our own, we surely ought to allow the Tolkien family their opinions as well.

Silverlode

"Of all faces those of our familiares are the ones both most difficult to play fantastic tricks with, and most difficult really to see with fresh attention. They have become like the things which once attracted us by their glitter, or their colour, or their shape, and we laid hands on them, and then locked them in our hoard, acquired them, and acquiring ceased to look at them.
Creative fantasy, because it is mainly trying to do something else [make something new], may open your hoard and let all the locked things fly away like cage-birds. The gems all turn into flowers or flames, and you will be warned that all you had (or knew) was dangerous and potent, not really effectively chained, free and wild; no more yours than they were you."
-On Fairy Stories


grammaboodawg
Immortal


Aug 19 2012, 12:41pm

Post #154 of 245 (1298 views)
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*sighs smiling* He even went beyond cameos and after parties. [In reply to] Can't Post

He came to the 2004 Oscars Party TORn hosted and fully participated in ORC conventions. He came on stage, signed autographs, walked the convention floor... he signed my 50th anniversary gold HC of The Hobbit. You could tell he was thoroughly enjoying himself!


sample

I really need these new films to take me back to, and not re-introduce me to, that magical world.




TORn's Observations Lists
Unused Scenes



grammaboodawg
Immortal


Aug 19 2012, 1:24pm

Post #155 of 245 (1366 views)
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*nods knowingly* This is something [In reply to] Can't Post

that I've shook my head at ever since these films first came out. The misdirected assumption that it had a specific target group. Teen-age/College-age young men. Mercy. I thought the breakthrough of realizing the demographics of the audience/fans spread across the entire social/age/gender spectrum.

I also have the utmost respect for Christopher Tolkien's protective nature to his father's (and his own) work; but for me... if I take it personally... which I do ;) ... it's very frustrating to be minimized and ignored as a fan of the films in interviews like this. What's strange is that it's recognized by Tolkien that fans of the book(s) cover a large market... so why not the films?

*shakes head* I understand Tolkien's attitude, but regret that he's missing out on the pride and pleasure he could have knowing how much joy the works of both Tolkiens have given to so many. And it continues. But... that's his prerogative.


sample

I really need these new films to take me back to, and not re-introduce me to, that magical world.




TORn's Observations Lists
Unused Scenes



Earl
Forum Admin / Moderator


Aug 19 2012, 2:41pm

Post #156 of 245 (1260 views)
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Thanks gramma for confirming that Royd's really a supercool person B-) // [In reply to] Can't Post

 



The Plan 9 Interview... in celebration of the 10th anniversary of the release of The Fellowship of the Ring.


DesiringDragons
Lorien


Aug 19 2012, 2:56pm

Post #157 of 245 (1250 views)
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Well said. [In reply to] Can't Post

If it wasn't for the Tolkien family, the books wouldn't even exist. Christopher may have an old-fashioned worldview, but his life's work has been being his father's literary executor. I for one am profoundly grateful to him for his hard work.

Peter Jackson could not have come up with the source material on his own.


Eowyn of Penns Woods
Valinor


Aug 19 2012, 3:06pm

Post #158 of 245 (1223 views)
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*mods up*// [In reply to] Can't Post

 

**********************************


NABOUF
Not a TORns*b!
Certified Curmudgeon
Knitting Knerd
NARF: NWtS Chapter Member since June 17,2011


geordie
Tol Eressea

Aug 19 2012, 3:22pm

Post #159 of 245 (1289 views)
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Mods up, too.// [In reply to] Can't Post

 


JWPlatt
Grey Havens


Aug 19 2012, 3:29pm

Post #160 of 245 (1206 views)
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Hush Money [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To

In Reply To
So you are saying the Tolkien Estate should not be compensated for (the increased) sales of the books -


No I didn't say that. What I was trying to say was that if they're prepared to enjoy the fruits of Peter Jackson's labours then maybe they should lay off the criticism a tad.


Wow. I understand. I remain appalled by the attitude that money should shut up people (whether the object of their criticism was under their control or not) - even "a tad."


Shelob'sAppetite
Valinor

Aug 19 2012, 4:16pm

Post #161 of 245 (1382 views)
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You're not being minimized and ignored [In reply to] Can't Post

Christopher Tolkien is simply expressing his opinion.

That should not be threatening or upsetting to anyone. You like the films, he doesn't.

Why is this difficult to accept?


Shelob'sAppetite
Valinor

Aug 19 2012, 4:19pm

Post #162 of 245 (1303 views)
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Amen [In reply to] Can't Post

Given the incredibly poor quality of the screenplay by PJ, Fran and Philippa, in terms of both dialogue and structure, I doubt they collectively have more creative ability than Tolkien had in his left eyebrow.


Lacrimae Rerum
Grey Havens

Aug 19 2012, 4:24pm

Post #163 of 245 (1197 views)
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The Oscar and BAFTA winning screenplay which [In reply to] Can't Post

Is incredibly poor quality in the context of your personal taste?

LR


JWPlatt
Grey Havens


Aug 19 2012, 4:27pm

Post #164 of 245 (1251 views)
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Validation [In reply to] Can't Post

It's about validation and evaluating our lives through others, real or fictional, instead of our own accomplishments. Severe cases result in confusing fiction and reality. It's the same effect as when an audience perceives an actor of a character we admire as having disliked the role and being unappreciative of the audience. See reaction to Nimoy's "I Am Not Spock" book or Shatner's "Get A Life" skit on Saturday Night Live years ago. Their intent was much different than fan interpretation.


Spaldron
Rivendell


Aug 19 2012, 4:38pm

Post #165 of 245 (1216 views)
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What I find quite amusing here... [In reply to] Can't Post

... is that the people who will cry outrage at the moment anyone criticises CT or his estate are the same ones who will either happily say nothing or take part in the regular PJ bashing that goes on here. Its as if one can do no wrong and the other can only do wrong. For my money both are more similar than many Tolkien fans are prepared to stomach. Both CT and PJ have dedicated years of their lives to preserve, continue and expand the work of J.R.R and bring his books to a new audience (the latter of which Jackson has unarguably had a much greater impact).

No on here is personally attacking CT but the man or his opinions shouldn't be above criticism just because of who he is. Its easy (and common) for Tolkien die-hards to slate Jackson for various reasons (he left out/changed their favourite part of the book, he "doesn't understand the message" , or they resent the huge increase in popularity as a result, preferred it when it was only them and their five mates at Games Workshop, etc, etc) and it seems to go down well in some quarters. Lets bash the guy who "ruined the trilogy". Indeed there are some who genuinely believe they could've made the films better, filming the books word for word, ending up with a 29 hour FOTR. Puleeeeease.....

From my perspective the TE (or some elements of it) just come across as hugely out of touch when it comes to recognising or acknowledging the enormous impact the films have had on the legacy of Tolkien and shouldn't be above questioning (as neither should Jackson).

"A single dream is more powerful than a thousand realities."


Shelob'sAppetite
Valinor

Aug 19 2012, 4:38pm

Post #166 of 245 (1357 views)
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Yes [In reply to] Can't Post

Again, Oscar and BAFTA awards are generally meaningless to me, in terms of quality.

Some of the films that are now described as some of the best of all time by many critics, and likewise re: screenplays, never won on Oscar or a BAFTA.

Some truly subpar films, such as Titanic, have won.

I'm not sure why appeals to the authority of BAFTA and Oscar keep coming up. I am saying the LOTR scripts were shoddy, in my view, and that's the long and short of it!

This is not a competition for whose opinion is more socially acceptable, as far as I am aware.


Shelob'sAppetite
Valinor

Aug 19 2012, 4:41pm

Post #167 of 245 (1194 views)
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Who said CT is above criticism? [In reply to] Can't Post

It seems you are putting words in people's mouths here.

I have criticized CT myself, on a few occasions. All I am saying is that taking his personal opinion personally, as some sort of slight against fans of the films, is generally unnecessary.


DanielLB
Immortal


Aug 19 2012, 4:43pm

Post #168 of 245 (1230 views)
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I bet you're a Razzie man [In reply to] Can't Post

Liking films that win a Razzie, rather than an Oscar. Wink Are there any films where this is true, SA?

But I agree with you regarding the meaningless of awards.


(This post was edited by DanielLB on Aug 19 2012, 4:43pm)


JWPlatt
Grey Havens


Aug 19 2012, 4:45pm

Post #169 of 245 (1265 views)
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Writers [In reply to] Can't Post

In his uniquely extreme way, Shelob represents my more moderate view about screen writers who think they know better - audience be damned. They'll kill off beloved characters with impunity ostensibly in the name of character-driven story when in reality they get a thrill from snuffing someone else's work in the name of drama because they can't think of anything better to invest in the existing franchise. See Kirk in Generations or Newt, Bishop and Hicks in Alien 3. Or they'll not give the audience what they want because they think they're smarter than us and are not imaginative enough to actually answer questions with direct linkage and still make things fresh and surprising. See Prometheus. See anything Chris Carter does. Or they'll have stupid scientists and two women running in a straight line under a gazillion ton rolling space ship instead of running to the side. See Prometheus again. Or they will change Faramir, have Frodo say "Go home, Sam," change plot and motivation and feel superior about it. I know I'd feel at least a little better about writers who do these things if I ever once hear them say "That was a bad decision -mea culpa."


Escapist
Gondor

Aug 19 2012, 5:10pm

Post #170 of 245 (1154 views)
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People want different things. [In reply to] Can't Post

No writer can make everyone happy. Some people are just really hard to please.
Some might advocate for mass appeal.
Some might seek out the approval of "those with taste" or "those who are more important".
Others might just go for a movie that they, themselves enjoy and hope for the best.
But I don't know if there are really all that many universally "bad decisions".

Show or do not show, there is no tell.


Escapist
Gondor

Aug 19 2012, 5:19pm

Post #171 of 245 (1234 views)
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The opinion of CT matters. [In reply to] Can't Post

He is the executor of the state (no?).
He is an important professor at Oxford (still?)
He is a published author himself.
He is likely to be subject to biases of various kinds. (I said likely - not certainly - the heck if I know if in fact it is so and not just likely)
He is after all, just one man.

I tend to focus on the last of these since it is the clearest which means that I don't think about it often or have well set opinions about his opinions, myself.

Show or do not show, there is no tell.


Lacrimae Rerum
Grey Havens

Aug 19 2012, 5:32pm

Post #172 of 245 (1179 views)
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Well not quite [In reply to] Can't Post

You are saying the scripts are shoddy full stop.

It is the distinction between saying, for example, Beyonce is ugly or Beyonce is not my type.

LR


Lacrimae Rerum
Grey Havens

Aug 19 2012, 5:34pm

Post #173 of 245 (1180 views)
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I'm not sure the audience felt they were damned. [In reply to] Can't Post

Or at least not in any significant volumes given the extraordinary success of the films.

LR


macfalk
Valinor


Aug 19 2012, 5:36pm

Post #174 of 245 (1184 views)
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CTs comments unwise [In reply to] Can't Post

It would seem that for some people, CT is The Man Who Must Not Face Critique, while its alright to bash PJ 24 hours a day.

I was truly appalled when I read CTs comments about the films being aimed at 15-25 year olds only. Not only is this assumption completely false - has he even seen the movies? I doubt it, because if I am not mistaken he once said that he had no interest in ever seeing the films.

Frankly, it's rude, ignorant and disrespectful. To PJ and crew, but also towards plain mortal fans of it like myself and gramma.

Yes, has the right to express his own opinion. And yes, he is not obliged to worship PJ. Nobody has said anything different. But being the man of importance he is, the front figure of the TE, and the son of JRRT, it's more than a little unwise and unprofessional to say these things. It just strengthens the image of him being an isolated, old-fashioned man who still cannot accept that his father sold those film rights a long time ago, willingly.



The greatest adventure is what lies ahead.

(This post was edited by macfalk on Aug 19 2012, 5:43pm)


geordie
Tol Eressea

Aug 19 2012, 5:45pm

Post #175 of 245 (1276 views)
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*whispers... [In reply to] Can't Post

...slightly off-topic here - ref, your sig.

"A single dream is more powerful than a thousand realities."

- that isn't by Tolkien, y'know.

Smile


(This post was edited by geordie on Aug 19 2012, 5:46pm)

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