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Tolkien Estate HATES these movies?
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Tim
Tol Eressea


Aug 18 2012, 8:01pm

Post #101 of 245 (1511 views)
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Having just come from math class... [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
I understand your meaning, and there is some truth in it. But for everyone who has the benefit of being enlightened by one better informed in the faithAngelic Wink there are a score of others who will plod on mired in the darkness of heresy!Evil lolol UnsureFrown

In Reply To
In the glass half full camp, we could say they wouldn't be having the opportunity to argue about Gandalf's nature if it weren't for the exposure of the material by the adaptation. So now, that person has a chance (if they're so inclined) to learn more about the Maia. It could even be said that a casual reader (like myself) wouldn't know anything about the Maia, since they wouldn't wade through the Silmarillion. Now, that person knows about both, because of the movie adaptation. Smile



What is this ratio of heretical to enlightened? Laugh

Having come from English class just finishing up a position paper, I'm in the mood to offer a point in contention with yours.

The release of PJ's adapted LOTR clearly boosted book sales. The release of the Twilight movies clearly boosted book sales The release of the Narnia movies clearly boosted book sales. Wouldn't you say there's actually much more evidence that these popular movie adaptations actually increase exposure to the source materials rather than have the opposite effect?

Therefore I conclude that there is strong evidence that the movie adaptations actually encourage more readership of the source materials adding to the roster of the enlightened and adding more weight to my previous argument thus doing harm to your ratio, my friend. Wink

King Arthur: You know much that is hidden oh Tim.

Tim: Quite.


Tim
Tol Eressea


Aug 18 2012, 8:08pm

Post #102 of 245 (1427 views)
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I agree. Wouldn't a good example of this be the tale of King Arthur and Merlin? [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
The film is not the child. The attitude is one of protectionism or not. I don't believe a story is damaged by different tellings or different elements but thrives on it.

And one's attitude to different elements depends entirely on what one is looking for and how it plays out. I have no issue with conflicting details in different tellings.

LR


Rather than die, these tales have endured and historians have been continuing to dig for the source material they were derived from.

King Arthur: You know much that is hidden oh Tim.

Tim: Quite.


AinurOlorin
Half-elven


Aug 18 2012, 8:09pm

Post #103 of 245 (1474 views)
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Well, the work is the child, and the film is the child altered [In reply to] Can't Post

the protectionism is still tied to what is being protected. In this case, it is the memory of the child.

A story can definitely be damaged by different tellings. A legend may be expanded by different tellings and deepened in popular conciousness. . . but a story with one definitive original telling is more like a cannonical tome than a loosely translated legend. You might not damage the spreading of the tale, but you can definitely damage or even obliterate the original story, and if you alter it enough you can even loose the spirit and intent of the tale.

There comes a point at which an adaptation team really does have a moral and artistic obligation to change the label of "based upon," to "loosely based upon" and sometimes simply to "inspired by" lol. Because, like it or not, many movie audiences, while understanding that there will likely be some omissions, expect a work to be a mostly faithful and honest representation if it bears the same name as the source and is intended as a direct adaptation rather than a liberally altered derivative work. I am not saying The Hobbit has reached that point by any means, but caution should be applied.

In Reply To
The film is not the child. The attitude is one of protectionism or not. I don't believe a story is damaged by different tellings or different elements but thrives on it.

And one's attitude to different elements depends entirely on what one is looking for and how it plays out. I have no issue with conflicting details in different tellings.

LR


"Hear me, hounds of Sauron, Gandalf is here! Fly if you value your foul skins, I will shrivel you from tail to snout if you step within this circle!"

"Do not be to eager to deal out death in judgement. Even the very wise cannot see all ends."


Wandering Ranger
Rivendell


Aug 18 2012, 8:10pm

Post #104 of 245 (1425 views)
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if I may say so [In reply to] Can't Post

your post came across as really patronising and condescending. Neither are qualities which will persuade a reader of your point of view. Especially, when the point you make aren't strictly true. The movies may have increased awareness of the books but they actually did a lot of damage in the sense of they increased awareness of "false lore", that is to say people who haven't read the books begin to mix the two up and so get a distorted picture of Tolkien's world. I'd say the damage done by this false impression far outweighs the good done by making people aware of them.

So Frodo Baggins boarded the great ship and passed on into the west till the sweet fragrance on the air filled his sense and the sound of singing came over the water. Then it seemed to him that, as in a dream, he beheld white shores and beyond them a far green country. The third age of Middle Earth was over, the days of the Rings had passed and the story and song of those times was at an end.


Tim
Tol Eressea


Aug 18 2012, 8:18pm

Post #105 of 245 (1489 views)
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My experience is exactly the opposite [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
your post came across as really patronising and condescending. Neither are qualities which will persuade a reader of your point of view. Especially, when the point you make aren't strictly true. The movies may have increased awareness of the books but they actually did a lot of damage in the sense of they increased awareness of "false lore", that is to say people who haven't read the books begin to mix the two up and so get a distorted picture of Tolkien's world. I'd say the damage done by this false impression far outweighs the good done by making people aware of them.


Whenever I watch a good movie and I see it's based on a book, if I can I get my hands on that book. It's interesting to see the differences and my mind is not muddied by "false lore".

I'm sure that I'm not the only one capable of this experience.

I don't think my point is any more condescending than one that assumes people are too dumb or lazy to have the same experience that I have.

As for tone, I do what I can to control that and get across my point. I try to come across a little tongue-in-cheek, and to aid in that tone behold my silly avatar and siggy.

King Arthur: You know much that is hidden oh Tim.

Tim: Quite.


sycorax82
Rohan

Aug 18 2012, 8:39pm

Post #106 of 245 (1459 views)
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Christopher Tolkien is simply too close to the source material [In reply to] Can't Post

He has worked much of his life on compiling and commenting on his father's work and it's perfectly understandable that he would not enjoy that world being truncated and 'moviefied'. I know that if I were in his situation I would feel exactly the same.

Though...I'm sure he and his family have appreciated the money that's come their way in the last ten years or so as the books' popularity saw a huge surge (they also got paid a decent, and eventually correct...sum of money in royalties from the LOTR films).

Peter's films have led many more people to pick up the books, The Hobbit, The Silmarillion, Unfinished Tales etc. included. So everyone should be happy about that, including the Tolkien family. The great JRR Tolkien's work is hugely respected and revered by all!!


Seaber
Rivendell

Aug 18 2012, 8:41pm

Post #107 of 245 (1492 views)
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He plays the ranger handing out spears before the attack on Osgiliath if I remember rightly? [In reply to] Can't Post

Pretty sure he fell out with some of his family after that?

I might be mis-remembering, I read the interview about eight years ago :)


Lacrimae Rerum
Grey Havens

Aug 18 2012, 8:44pm

Post #108 of 245 (1410 views)
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How is a story like a child? [In reply to] Can't Post

I don't think I follow.

How do we obliterate the original tale? I am watching a new version of Murder on The Orient Express right now. It doesn't feature all of the same characters as previous versions or indeed the text. I don't see how anything is obliterated in multiple tellings where elements are different. It is instead interesting and offers new things with which to engage.

Movie audiences have demonstrated in their millions upon millions that they are comfortable with Jackson's approach to adapting Tolkien. I'm not sure we need to fear a change of mind just yet.

LR


Shelob'sAppetite
Valinor

Aug 18 2012, 8:45pm

Post #109 of 245 (1418 views)
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Great points [In reply to] Can't Post

In fact, the Tolkien Estate does contribute to a number of charities, including the World Wildlife Fund.


Shelob'sAppetite
Valinor

Aug 18 2012, 8:51pm

Post #110 of 245 (1462 views)
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You think PJ created an intelligent and respectful version of the story [In reply to] Can't Post

He doesn't.

So, you are essentially saying that Christopher Tolkien is ungrateful for not having your opinion of the films, and your opinion of their positive influence on society.

Funny, that...Crazy


Shelob'sAppetite
Valinor

Aug 18 2012, 8:56pm

Post #111 of 245 (1447 views)
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The funny thing about this stat [In reply to] Can't Post

Is that there is no evidence that "picking up the books" has led to a significant number of people actually reading them.

Though this is anecdotal, I have heard from numerous people who saw the films that they tried to read the books, disliked them, and didn't bother finishing.

Now, of course this has not happened with everyone, but before we declare that we have a lot more lovers of Tolkien now than we did before the films, we may want to wait for someone to finish up their PhD on the subject! Smile


geordie
Tol Eressea

Aug 18 2012, 9:04pm

Post #112 of 245 (1359 views)
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Royd played a ranger [In reply to] Can't Post

- IIRC, he was wearing Vigo's wig. But I don't know where you got the idea he fell out with members of his family over it.
.


DanielLB
Immortal


Aug 18 2012, 9:04pm

Post #113 of 245 (1417 views)
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Couldn't agree more! / [In reply to] Can't Post

 


DanielLB
Immortal


Aug 18 2012, 9:06pm

Post #114 of 245 (1415 views)
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I'll pitch it to my superviser in my next meeting with him [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
Now, of course this has not happened with everyone, but before we declare that we have a lot more lovers of Tolkien now than we did before the films, we may want to wait for someone to finish up their PhD on the subject! Smile



How about: how does the weather effect the number of Tolkien book readers, before and after the films. Laugh


Shelob'sAppetite
Valinor

Aug 18 2012, 9:07pm

Post #115 of 245 (1399 views)
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Oh, I bet you could! [In reply to] Can't Post

 


geordie
Tol Eressea

Aug 18 2012, 9:07pm

Post #116 of 245 (1376 views)
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Couldn't agree more.// [In reply to] Can't Post

 


Tim
Tol Eressea


Aug 18 2012, 9:07pm

Post #117 of 245 (1410 views)
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I said it strengthens my argument... [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
Is that there is no evidence that "picking up the books" has led to a significant number of people actually reading them.

Though this is anecdotal, I have heard from numerous people who saw the films that they tried to read the books, disliked them, and didn't bother finishing.

Now, of course this has not happened with everyone, but before we declare that we have a lot more lovers of Tolkien now than we did before the films, we may want to wait for someone to finish up their PhD on the subject! Smile


Actually more people picking up the books is direct evidence that there are more people interested in the subject.

However, I have yet to see anyone provide anything as compelling to prove that less people have been exposed to the books because of the movie adaptations.

King Arthur: You know much that is hidden oh Tim.

Tim: Quite.


DanielLB
Immortal


Aug 18 2012, 9:09pm

Post #118 of 245 (1402 views)
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I could? / [In reply to] Can't Post

 


rings7
Rohan


Aug 18 2012, 9:10pm

Post #119 of 245 (1428 views)
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I'm sorry [In reply to] Can't Post

but the movies are brilliant on their own. If we start comparing them with the books then that's when the flaws start.


(This post was edited by rings7 on Aug 18 2012, 9:16pm)


Shelob'sAppetite
Valinor

Aug 18 2012, 9:11pm

Post #120 of 245 (1355 views)
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I think the films [In reply to] Can't Post

Are not very good on their own, never mind as compared to the source material.


rings7
Rohan


Aug 18 2012, 9:15pm

Post #121 of 245 (1350 views)
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Ok [In reply to] Can't Post

so you don't like the lotr movies, so, for you sure you won't like the Hobbit.


Shelob'sAppetite
Valinor

Aug 18 2012, 9:21pm

Post #122 of 245 (1314 views)
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Not necessarily [In reply to] Can't Post

 


AinurOlorin
Half-elven


Aug 18 2012, 9:23pm

Post #123 of 245 (1309 views)
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Yet how many more people will see the movies without picking up the books? [In reply to] Can't Post

The answer is measurable by hundreds of thousands. And that is a problem for the integrity of the story and legendarium.

In Reply To

In Reply To
Is that there is no evidence that "picking up the books" has led to a significant number of people actually reading them.

Though this is anecdotal, I have heard from numerous people who saw the films that they tried to read the books, disliked them, and didn't bother finishing.

Now, of course this has not happened with everyone, but before we declare that we have a lot more lovers of Tolkien now than we did before the films, we may want to wait for someone to finish up their PhD on the subject! Smile


Actually more people picking up the books is direct evidence that there are more people interested in the subject.

However, I have yet to see anyone provide anything as compelling to prove that less people have been exposed to the books because of the movie adaptations.


"Hear me, hounds of Sauron, Gandalf is here! Fly if you value your foul skins, I will shrivel you from tail to snout if you step within this circle!"

"Do not be to eager to deal out death in judgement. Even the very wise cannot see all ends."


Morthoron
Gondor


Aug 18 2012, 9:26pm

Post #124 of 245 (1379 views)
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From past experience... [In reply to] Can't Post

The books have been discussed on many Internet forums long previous to the movies, and many of these same forums continued discussing the books during and after the first three movies had their run. I have every reason to believe the same groups will go back to discussing the books after the present three movies (or four...five...however long PJ wants to drag out his fan-fictional commerical excursion) have faded from the spotlight.

Please visit my blog...The Dark Elf File...a slighty skewed journal of music and literary comment, fan-fiction and interminable essays.



Shelob'sAppetite
Valinor

Aug 18 2012, 9:26pm

Post #125 of 245 (1369 views)
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Right, and people often ignore the question... [In reply to] Can't Post

...how many people went to see the films because of recommendations by people who had read the books?

That would be an interesting question to answer, IMO.

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