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AinurOlorin
Half-elven
Aug 18 2012, 6:21pm
Post #101 of 155
(403 views)
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Understood on the terminology. . . burned, mayhaps? But as to what I am suggesting
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, and please don't be snarmy about it, is that The Animated Hobbit was certainly not some well kept secret that only a dozen people ever heard of, and which 9 out of that 12 despised. Millions of people have seen the animated Hobbit, and a good percentage of those millions have loved it, with another decent sized faction at least liking it.
Your comments imply that it fell into obscurity within a few years of its release (imply, not proclaim, you needn't say that those weren't your exact words), which is simply not the case. Indeed, for a made for Television movie it was EXTREMELY successful. Very few made for television animated movies do so well as to have DVD copies in fairly regular circulation decades after their initial offering. In consideration of what it was, it did very well. Well it's not on DVD except second hand and not on I tunes (though it might be on Netflix - I think you have to log on to see).
But let's not haggle - I'm sure you aren't suggesting that this a popular film today or that it has a global fan base? Or that it is critically acclaimed or well reviewed.
You may love it! Nothing wrong with that. I happen to really enjoy some BBC dramas from my youth but I would be hard pressed to argue that they were hugely successful marks on the global stage!
LR
"Hear me, hounds of Sauron, Gandalf is here! Fly if you value your foul skins, I will shrivel you from tail to snout if you step within this circle!"
"Do not be to eager to deal out death in judgement. Even the very wise cannot see all ends."
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TomthePilgrim
Rohan
Aug 18 2012, 6:25pm
Post #103 of 155
(438 views)
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. . . only five dwarves survived the BO5A in the Rankin/Bass version. 
The Road goes ever on and on
Down from the door where it began.
Now far ahead the Road has gone,
And I must follow, if I can,
"Thorin sat up with a start. 'Something is not right,' he muttered to himself as he stood up and
looked towards the mirror . . . . . . . . . 'Durin's bones', he gasped, 'what's happened to my beard?'"
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Lacrimae Rerum
Grey Havens
Aug 18 2012, 6:26pm
Post #104 of 155
(433 views)
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AO I just am not sure where you are getting
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These percentages and millions of people who loved it? Is this from anywhere that I'm missing?
LR
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TomthePilgrim
Rohan
Aug 18 2012, 6:39pm
Post #105 of 155
(419 views)
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> The movie initially played on NBC in 1977 and held a respectable share of viewers for what many considered a 'children's movie. I can't find the actual numbers, but at that time each of our three major networks would have had 10's of millions of viewers.
> The teleplay won a Peabody Award
> The movie was nominated for the Hugo Award for 'Best Dramatic Presentation' . . . they lost to Star Wars.
> The movie was replayed on Thanksgiving weekend for a decade or more afterwards.
> The movie was issued on VHS, and later of DVD. Most movies do not receive such a release.
I know people who first saw the Hobbit on TV, and then took time to read Tolkien, my mother and sister-in-law included.
The Road goes ever on and on
Down from the door where it began.
Now far ahead the Road has gone,
And I must follow, if I can,
"Thorin sat up with a start. 'Something is not right,' he muttered to himself as he stood up and
looked towards the mirror . . . . . . . . . 'Durin's bones', he gasped, 'what's happened to my beard?'"
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dormouse
Half-elven
Aug 18 2012, 6:54pm
Post #106 of 155
(406 views)
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Dare I mention very very quietly...
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... just in a whisper, that I don't see any similarities to Arthur Rackham. His work is lovely.
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TomthePilgrim
Rohan
Aug 18 2012, 7:00pm
Post #107 of 155
(405 views)
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it's a crude resemblance, I agree . . .
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. . . and only in the landscapes.
why are we whispering . . . 
The Road goes ever on and on
Down from the door where it began.
Now far ahead the Road has gone,
And I must follow, if I can,
"Thorin sat up with a start. 'Something is not right,' he muttered to himself as he stood up and
looked towards the mirror . . . . . . . . . 'Durin's bones', he gasped, 'what's happened to my beard?'"
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Lacrimae Rerum
Grey Havens
Aug 18 2012, 7:03pm
Post #108 of 155
(423 views)
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Yep . I've got those bits of info.
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I feel a little like I'm going mad but let's plough on.
I have no doubt whatsoever that people have watched it and indeed watched it in 1977. I am suggesting that we don't know how many people loved it and if were to go off reviews both professional and amateur then we would have to say the reaction is far from rapt appreciation.
I do love the Peabody Awards and have a Peabody Award party every year, so I'll say nothing about that! Ahem.
The Hugo nomination puts it in a group with Close Encounters (very good) and Blood! The Life and Future Times of Jack the Ripper and Wizards! (not as good). Again my instinct would be to think that these latter two were not greatly successful films but perhaps we will move on to them in addition!
The film, I believe you, played regularly on the states for several years. Alas it hasn't in the UK. I would not necessarily see this as a huge indicator though I am going off UK Christmas children's fare!
I am not sure that any film which gets a DVD release is a big success.
We could possibly compare it to something like The Rescuers (also cartoon film, also 1977) which despite not being a rampantly successful film itself is still selling happily on DVD, is considerably better reviewed and plays regularly on international TV.
Now I wouldn't for a moment suggest The Rescuers is a big success. On the same basis I wouldn't suggest Rakin Bass's film is.
LR
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AinurOlorin
Half-elven
Aug 18 2012, 7:11pm
Post #109 of 155
(403 views)
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If you look, it is very obvious
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in the landscapes especially, but also in much of the character design. Not The Elves, at least not as Elves, but look through Rackham's work, and there is notable similarity in many of the aspects. Certainly not carbon copy similarity, but notable homage and resemblances. ... just in a whisper, that I don't see any similarities to Arthur Rackham. His work is lovely.
"Hear me, hounds of Sauron, Gandalf is here! Fly if you value your foul skins, I will shrivel you from tail to snout if you step within this circle!"
"Do not be to eager to deal out death in judgement. Even the very wise cannot see all ends."
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AinurOlorin
Half-elven
Aug 18 2012, 7:13pm
Post #110 of 155
(396 views)
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To quote John Huston's Gandalf in the animated . . .
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"Excellent." lol. Well researched, TomThePilgrim, research always deserves its praise. > The movie initially played on NBC in 1977 and held a respectable share of viewers for what many considered a 'children's movie. I can't find the actual numbers, but at that time each of our three major networks would have had 10's of millions of viewers.
> The teleplay won a Peabody Award
> The movie was nominated for the Hugo Award for 'Best Dramatic Presentation' . . . they lost to Star Wars.
> The movie was replayed on Thanksgiving weekend for a decade or more afterwards.
> The movie was issued on VHS, and later of DVD. Most movies do not receive such a release.
I know people who first saw the Hobbit on TV, and then took time to read Tolkien, my mother and sister-in-law included.
"Hear me, hounds of Sauron, Gandalf is here! Fly if you value your foul skins, I will shrivel you from tail to snout if you step within this circle!"
"Do not be to eager to deal out death in judgement. Even the very wise cannot see all ends."
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TomthePilgrim
Rohan
Aug 18 2012, 7:16pm
Post #111 of 155
(384 views)
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. . . especially about a movie I only liked parts of. I'd MUCH rather be back to the original topic . . . suggesting what parts of the Rankin/Bass the Hobbit we might or would like to see PJ and Co. use as a guide. A nice friendly thread of conversations.
However, you've been rather persistant in attacking the film and it's popularity.
The VHS and DVD issue IS a big deal, as it was originally a TV movie. I don't know how things work in the UK, but in the US MOST TV movies do not get issued in any other format. These issues as VHS and DVD are a clear indication of it's continued popularity for decades after 1977.
'nuff said.
The Road goes ever on and on
Down from the door where it began.
Now far ahead the Road has gone,
And I must follow, if I can,
"Thorin sat up with a start. 'Something is not right,' he muttered to himself as he stood up and
looked towards the mirror . . . . . . . . . 'Durin's bones', he gasped, 'what's happened to my beard?'"
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TomthePilgrim
Rohan
Aug 18 2012, 7:22pm
Post #112 of 155
(377 views)
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Now, can we be done with the arguing and get back to the subject . . . what we'd like to see PJ use as a guide?
I've had a couple of discussions with others about the singing elves upon the groups arrival at Rivendell. One guy wants to see that recreated, while a few others would pass on that part. I love the idea, but am not sure it can be done without seeming corny.
Your thoughts?
The Road goes ever on and on
Down from the door where it began.
Now far ahead the Road has gone,
And I must follow, if I can,
"Thorin sat up with a start. 'Something is not right,' he muttered to himself as he stood up and
looked towards the mirror . . . . . . . . . 'Durin's bones', he gasped, 'what's happened to my beard?'"
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AinurOlorin
Half-elven
Aug 18 2012, 7:28pm
Post #113 of 155
(379 views)
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Made for television film is the distinction.
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Yes, all theatrical films get DVD versions, especially now days, and even some old fare is getting retro-dvd treatment, but The Hobbit could be found on VHS and DVD at a time when most made for television movies were never sold in VHS or DVD format. And they did show it in the states on Network television during the Holidays, for over twenty years, and for the first several years it was at a time when cabal news did not yet have any significant programming to compete with the networks in primetime slots, other than repeating movie fare. Thus millions of people saw it, bearing in mind that U.S.A. population is significantly larger than that of the U.K.
The Rescuers was, again, a Theatrical release. The Hobbit was not. It takes a lot for a made for television film to become as popular (and frankly more popular than many) Theatre films. I feel a little like I'm going mad but let's plough on.
I have no doubt whatsoever that people have watched it and indeed watched it in 1977. I am suggesting that we don't know how many people loved it and if were to go off reviews both professional and amateur then we would have to say the reaction is far from rapt appreciation.
I do love the Peabody Awards and have a Peabody Award party every year, so I'll say nothing about that! Ahem.
The Hugo nomination puts it in a group with Close Encounters (very good) and Blood! The Life and Future Times of Jack the Ripper and Wizards! (not as good). Again my instinct would be to think that these latter two were not greatly successful films but perhaps we will move on to them in addition!
The film, I believe you, played regularly on the states for several years. Alas it hasn't in the UK. I would not necessarily see this as a huge indicator though I am going off UK Christmas children's fare!
I am not sure that any film which gets a DVD release is a big success.
We could possibly compare it to something like The Rescuers (also cartoon film, also 1977) which despite not being a rampantly successful film itself is still selling happily on DVD, is considerably better reviewed and plays regularly on international TV.
Now I wouldn't for a moment suggest The Rescuers is a big success. On the same basis I wouldn't suggest Rakin Bass's film is.
LR
"Hear me, hounds of Sauron, Gandalf is here! Fly if you value your foul skins, I will shrivel you from tail to snout if you step within this circle!"
"Do not be to eager to deal out death in judgement. Even the very wise cannot see all ends."
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Lacrimae Rerum
Grey Havens
Aug 18 2012, 7:37pm
Post #114 of 155
(377 views)
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It's a bit odd to suggest the film was hugely successful. I'm not actually attacking the film but I cannot get on board with the strange notion that it was a popular success.
Being a made for tv movie, from the states, from the 70's, which had a DVD release puts it in such illustrious company as Brian's Song, Banjo Hackett and The Last Ride of the Dalton Gang.
Obviously none of us need to look any of these films up because, as you argue, the facts of the matter show that these are all very popular and successful films.
(Interestingly Banjo and Brian are still in DVD production, unlike Rankin Bass)
LR
(This post was edited by Lacrimae Rerum on Aug 18 2012, 7:45pm)
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dormouse
Half-elven
Aug 18 2012, 7:49pm
Post #115 of 155
(385 views)
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... and I know Arthur Rackham's work very well. If I could see anything of his style in it, I wouldn't find it as unacceptable as I do. The idea that there is any Rackham influence in the characters particularly baffles me - they're hideous and out of proportion, his figure work was beautiful. It isn't that I haven't looked, I just don't see what you're seeing.
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AinurOlorin
Half-elven
Aug 18 2012, 7:59pm
Post #117 of 155
(361 views)
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Perhaps WB, which owns the Rankin Bass production
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pulled The Hobbit, not wanting people to get a more true to text version of the film .
It did only dissapear from shelves in the last couple of years after decades of availability. No exaggeration. I literally bought a copy, right off the shelf, from Best Buy for my Godson just two or three years ago, at the maximum time allotment.
Also, did those other films keep being run on Network television for the next several decades??? Let us not be ridiculous. More people saw The Hobbit over the years than ever saw Banjo Hackett. Indeed, I dare say many more people saw The Hobbit, in the course of time, than saw theatrical films like The Secret of Nimh and The Black Cauldron. It's a bit odd to suggest the film was hugely successful. I'm not actually attacking the film but I cannot get on board with the strange notion that it was a popular success.
Being a made for tv movie, from the states, from the 70's, which had a DVD release puts it in such illustrious company as Brian's Song, Banjo Hackett and The Last Ride of the Dalton Gang.
Obviously none of us need to look any of these films up because, as you argue, the facts of the matter show that these are all very popular and successful films.
(Interestingly Banjo and Brian are still in DVD production, unlike Rankin Bass)
LR
"Hear me, hounds of Sauron, Gandalf is here! Fly if you value your foul skins, I will shrivel you from tail to snout if you step within this circle!"
"Do not be to eager to deal out death in judgement. Even the very wise cannot see all ends."
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AinurOlorin
Half-elven
Aug 18 2012, 8:01pm
Post #118 of 155
(362 views)
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And that is not the final version of Bilbo. This version is much uglier. Also,
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a better comparision might be the Rankin/Bass Elrond or Gandalf. Indeed, that third dwarf is not so different from Gandalf in the Animated. lol. But I do see the resemblance between the middle one and even this more homely Bilbo. Rankin and Bass stated that Rackham was an influence, though the trolls certainly are Baueresque. ... just in a whisper, that I don't see any similarities to Arthur Rackham. His work is lovely.  Actually, though, John Bauer might be a better comparison, however, since Rackham's more grotesque work such as the above is not so representative of his whole output. It was mainly Bauer that I had in mind when I said "of his ilk."
"Hear me, hounds of Sauron, Gandalf is here! Fly if you value your foul skins, I will shrivel you from tail to snout if you step within this circle!"
"Do not be to eager to deal out death in judgement. Even the very wise cannot see all ends."
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TomthePilgrim
Rohan
Aug 18 2012, 8:11pm
Post #119 of 155
(358 views)
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I believe AinurOlorin said that the characters had some similarities . . .
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. . . and, although I see some influence in Gandalf and a few of the dwarves, Rackham's work has much more substance, more imagination and a charming otherworldlyness (did i invent a new word? ) . . . to me, Rackham's work held a fey-like quality that has only been partially reproduced in recent years by Alan Lee and Brian Froud.
It has been said that the producers tried to recreate that feeling and, while the quality has fallen short, as it only could in the cartoon medium of that era, a still find a charming quality to many of the landscapes.
However, each of us has his own perspective on things . . .
The Road goes ever on and on
Down from the door where it began.
Now far ahead the Road has gone,
And I must follow, if I can,
"Thorin sat up with a start. 'Something is not right,' he muttered to himself as he stood up and
looked towards the mirror . . . . . . . . . 'Durin's bones', he gasped, 'what's happened to my beard?'"
(This post was edited by TomthePilgrim on Aug 18 2012, 8:12pm)
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AinurOlorin
Half-elven
Aug 18 2012, 8:13pm
Post #120 of 155
(348 views)
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I don't think the textural difference has been accounted for.
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There are similarities in style that some might overlook because of the obvious difference in the texture/colouring etc of the paintings versus the animations.
"Hear me, hounds of Sauron, Gandalf is here! Fly if you value your foul skins, I will shrivel you from tail to snout if you step within this circle!"
"Do not be to eager to deal out death in judgement. Even the very wise cannot see all ends."
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Lacrimae Rerum
Grey Havens
Aug 18 2012, 8:20pm
Post #121 of 155
(361 views)
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Ah so it isn't a guarantee of success?
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I have no idea how often Banjo whatsit was shown as I have never heard of it before today.
And were I not a Tolkien fan Rankin Bass would be in a similar position I have no doubt.
I feel a little like having to argue that Banjo Doodah wasn't a hugely successful film but ok.
So we've ditched the DVD argument and are left with the fact that a made for TV movie was shown on TV for several years. I can only go off UK Christmas TV but our kids schedule is packed with every cartoon film you've never heard of (and it is by no means global successes for the most part).
I am happy to go with the idea that more people saw the Hobbit than Banjo. I am happy to say that therefore more people probably liked it. But we are in a ball park that is so far from "huge success" we'd need the eagles to get us there.
LR
(This post was edited by Lacrimae Rerum on Aug 18 2012, 8:29pm)
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TomthePilgrim
Rohan
Aug 18 2012, 8:20pm
Post #122 of 155
(342 views)
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HA, HA!
Well, I kinda did in a oblique way . . .
The Road goes ever on and on
Down from the door where it began.
Now far ahead the Road has gone,
And I must follow, if I can,
"Thorin sat up with a start. 'Something is not right,' he muttered to himself as he stood up and
looked towards the mirror . . . . . . . . . 'Durin's bones', he gasped, 'what's happened to my beard?'"
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AinurOlorin
Half-elven
Aug 18 2012, 9:03pm
Post #123 of 155
(330 views)
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intentionally too cute by half.
We have not dispensed of the DVD matter. That was not common at the time, though as I have said, many more obscure shows have since been converted to DVD format. But The Hobbit was being sold on VHS and then DVD at a time when most made for TV movies were not.
Also, you may say you would not have heard of the Rankin Bass Hobbit outside of fandom, but I assure with certainty that many people have. I have met many people who FIRST encountered Tolkien in this way.
And, did we say several years? I am rather certain I said for roughly two decades. The Hobbit was airing in Holiday time on Network television (i.e. you didn't have to have cable to see it, just a television with one of the three juggernaut mainstay stations of the day) from the late 1970s to at least the late 1990s, possibly as far as the early 2000s. Network television, in a nation of over 300 million. TomThePilgrim is welcome to pull up the exact Neilsien estimates for each year. . . I am telling you Lacrimae, PLENTY of people have seen it, and lots of them liked it. I have no idea how often Banjo whatsit was shown as I have never heard of it before today.
And were I not a Tolkien fan Rankin Bass would be in a similar position I have no doubt.
I feel a little like having to argue that Banjo Doodah wasn't a hugely successful film but ok.
So we've ditched the DVD argument and are left with the fact that a made for TV movie was shown on TV for several years. I can only go off UK Christmas TV but our kids schedule is packed with every cartoon film you've never heard of (and it is by no means global successes for the most part).
I am happy to go with the idea that more people saw the Hobbit than Banjo. I am happy to say that therefore more people probably liked it. But we are in a ball park that is so far from "huge success" we'd need the eagles to get us there.
LR
"Hear me, hounds of Sauron, Gandalf is here! Fly if you value your foul skins, I will shrivel you from tail to snout if you step within this circle!"
"Do not be to eager to deal out death in judgement. Even the very wise cannot see all ends."
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Shelob'sAppetite
Valinor
Aug 18 2012, 9:05pm
Post #124 of 155
(342 views)
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And I find significant similarities between his work and the visual style of the Rankin and Bass Hobbit.
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TomthePilgrim
Rohan
Aug 18 2012, 9:13pm
Post #125 of 155
(314 views)
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. . . someone else agrees . . . Dormouse was starting to make me think I was seeing things!
The Road goes ever on and on
Down from the door where it began.
Now far ahead the Road has gone,
And I must follow, if I can,
"Thorin sat up with a start. 'Something is not right,' he muttered to himself as he stood up and
looked towards the mirror . . . . . . . . . 'Durin's bones', he gasped, 'what's happened to my beard?'"
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