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Tolkien Estate HATES these movies?
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Maiarmike
Grey Havens


Aug 18 2012, 6:17pm

Post #76 of 245 (1439 views)
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Most old guys I know of are that way...// [In reply to] Can't Post

 

"I warn you, if you bore me, I shall take my revenge"
--J.R.R. Tolkien


Lusitano
Tol Eressea


Aug 18 2012, 6:17pm

Post #77 of 245 (1476 views)
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well i just think its a pity [In reply to] Can't Post

That is logical but when you put it like that, it just makes me sad...so youre saying pj wasnt interested at all in having him in some form of consulting role?and was just solely interested in his stamp?

Even if christopher didnt think pj was the best man for the job, in my opinion, he should have tried to get more involved, to consult, to comment, to advise in any capacity for the betterment of the adaptation of his fathers work into the big screen...what else would merit an amiable and productive relation between the filmmakers and christopher...

I know some people will say, he is very opinionated, he wasnt interested in the movies, or he doesnt think they should be made , its his right etc...well, fin...but if there ever was a work of art that merited a sound and amiable working relationship between the two parts was lotr...

Wandering Ranger: yes indeed they have that right..no one is disputing that...its not a matte rof oweing something...is a matter of doing what is best for the film adaptations..and i think the best wd have been a diferent attitude and collaboration...

But how did Ctolkien understood that they didnt have enough respect for his fathers work, and as such should not get involved, if he didnt meet the filmmakers and heard what they had to say and show? Am i missing something? He , form the very beginning , refused involvement right?


(This post was edited by Lusitano on Aug 18 2012, 6:19pm)


Earl
Forum Admin / Moderator


Aug 18 2012, 6:21pm

Post #78 of 245 (1424 views)
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That is pretty much my belief too [In reply to] Can't Post

Which is why don't really get what's there to "protect" Crazy



The Plan 9 Interview... in celebration of the 10th anniversary of the release of The Fellowship of the Ring.


Maiarmike
Grey Havens


Aug 18 2012, 6:24pm

Post #79 of 245 (1432 views)
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I've always viewed him as largely ungrateful. [In reply to] Can't Post

Peter Jackson has done more for Tolkien's work than anyone has. Kids that wouldn't have ever even considered reading Tolkien pick the books up because they liked the movies.

C. Tolkien should be so lucky that they actually hired a director with talent and appreciation of Tolkien's work to adapt the books, instead of the 98% of Hollywood directors who would've done far, far worse.

I would think one would usually be at least thankful for the huge sums of money that someone puts in one's pocket.

"I warn you, if you bore me, I shall take my revenge"
--J.R.R. Tolkien


AinurOlorin
Half-elven


Aug 18 2012, 6:26pm

Post #80 of 245 (1381 views)
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Bah and humbug. The Author's account is the true one, [In reply to] Can't Post

Angelicdivinely dictated to him by a responsible god or Muse. All contrary indicators are fiddlesticks. Heretical, blasphemous fiddlesticks! end of discussion!Tongue

In Reply To
One isn't "true" and the other "false". One is original, to be sure, but both are fiction.

But that's rather beside the point. A film is there to tell a story in as engaging, entertaining and successful way as possible. It won't all be successful or universally liked but that's its job. Not to act as a reference book.

It bothers me no more than the thought someone is still reading a 1st edition hobbit.

LR


"Hear me, hounds of Sauron, Gandalf is here! Fly if you value your foul skins, I will shrivel you from tail to snout if you step within this circle!"

"Do not be to eager to deal out death in judgement. Even the very wise cannot see all ends."


Lacrimae Rerum
Grey Havens

Aug 18 2012, 6:29pm

Post #81 of 245 (1405 views)
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Haha have you ever considered starting a religion? Old L.Ron did ok out it. NT [In reply to] Can't Post

 


AinurOlorin
Half-elven


Aug 18 2012, 6:38pm

Post #82 of 245 (1384 views)
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I can still understand Christopher not wanting to meet. [In reply to] Can't Post

I think he should probably watch the films, which he may have done, so that his criticisms are sound. . . but as to meeting. . .

From all I have read, it was made pretty clear that Christopher et al would not have any authority or influence. Being consulted for information and insight is valuable in its way, but remains far different from actually having a say.

I can understand why Peter would want to involve the Tolkiens, but I can certainly understand why they would not agree to such involvment.

It isn't just a matter of being opinionated. Involvement doesn't mean things will go your way. Christopher Lee himself discovered that. Now, if Christopher had invovled himself, and then had still hated the end results, it would have been too late for him to change the optics without going out of his way to make a great deal of noise. The general assumption would be that he sacntioned Peter's vision. . . even if in the end he severly dissaproved.

In Reply To
That is logical but when you put it like that, it just makes me sad...so youre saying pj wasnt interested at all in having him in some form of consulting role?and was just solely interested in his stamp?

Even if christopher didnt think pj was the best man for the job, in my opinion, he should have tried to get more involved, to consult, to comment, to advise in any capacity for the betterment of the adaptation of his fathers work into the big screen...what else would merit an amiable and productive relation between the filmmakers and christopher...

I know some people will say, he is very opinionated, he wasnt interested in the movies, or he doesnt think they should be made , its his right etc...well, fin...but if there ever was a work of art that merited a sound and amiable working relationship between the two parts was lotr...

Wandering Ranger: yes indeed they have that right..no one is disputing that...its not a matte rof oweing something...is a matter of doing what is best for the film adaptations..and i think the best wd have been a diferent attitude and collaboration...

But how did Ctolkien understood that they didnt have enough respect for his fathers work, and as such should not get involved, if he didnt meet the filmmakers and heard what they had to say and show? Am i missing something? He , form the very beginning , refused involvement right?


"Hear me, hounds of Sauron, Gandalf is here! Fly if you value your foul skins, I will shrivel you from tail to snout if you step within this circle!"

"Do not be to eager to deal out death in judgement. Even the very wise cannot see all ends."


AinurOlorin
Half-elven


Aug 18 2012, 6:39pm

Post #83 of 245 (1340 views)
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lol [In reply to] Can't Post

Wink

"Hear me, hounds of Sauron, Gandalf is here! Fly if you value your foul skins, I will shrivel you from tail to snout if you step within this circle!"

"Do not be to eager to deal out death in judgement. Even the very wise cannot see all ends."


RosieLass
Valinor


Aug 18 2012, 6:39pm

Post #84 of 245 (1406 views)
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Maybe he thinks respect for his father's life-work is more important than money. // [In reply to] Can't Post

 

"BOTH [political] extremes are dangerous. But more dangerous are team fanboys who think all the extremists are on the OTHER side." (CNN reader comment)

It is always those with the fewest sensible things to say who make the loudest noise in saying them. --Precious Ramotswe (Alexander McCall Smith)


Phibbus
Rohan


Aug 18 2012, 6:39pm

Post #85 of 245 (1398 views)
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Indeed [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
Now, the other huge assumption is about what the Tolkien Estate does, or will do, with the money. What is your source for that? How do you know they *didn't* (or *will*) do something benevolent with those funds the studios tried to rob from them?

Indeed, the charitable Tolkien Trust was established precisely to distribute such surplus posthumous revenues.

Man is but an ass if he go about to expound this dream.


AinurOlorin
Half-elven


Aug 18 2012, 6:40pm

Post #86 of 245 (1438 views)
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You know, it is a funny thing, but some people would rather [In reply to] Can't Post

you not engage a work at all, than that you should engage it and come away seriously misinformed about it.

In Reply To
Peter Jackson has done more for Tolkien's work than anyone has. Kids that wouldn't have ever even considered reading Tolkien pick the books up because they liked the movies.

C. Tolkien should be so lucky that they actually hired a director with talent and appreciation of Tolkien's work to adapt the books, instead of the 98% of Hollywood directors who would've done far, far worse.

I would think one would usually be at least thankful for the huge sums of money that someone puts in one's pocket.


"Hear me, hounds of Sauron, Gandalf is here! Fly if you value your foul skins, I will shrivel you from tail to snout if you step within this circle!"

"Do not be to eager to deal out death in judgement. Even the very wise cannot see all ends."


AinurOlorin
Half-elven


Aug 18 2012, 6:47pm

Post #87 of 245 (1404 views)
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Well, that explains alot [In reply to] Can't Post

How casually you view the work would of course impact your feelings about adaptations. The more seriously one takes a source work, the less comfortable one will be with people taking liberties with it. That is self evident.

Fandoms of legendaria and varied mythos can be quasi religious (see comic book guy, and all the con fanboys, including those in the movie fanboy, where Wars fanboys (and girls) actually desecrate Trek fanboy's statuary, resulting in an altercation) in their approach. And that, of course, comes in varying degrees. As a casually religious person will often not be bothered by the details of their religion, so long as people follow the spirit of it, whilst an orthodox person may become wroth you someone for transgressing on this or that holy edict, so to, the more casual approach to various legendaria is not all that concerned with faithful adherrence to the details of the mythos, while the more ardent approach can be sent into a cardiac episode by news of people quoting some altered detail from an adaptation as though it were legitimate cannon.

In Reply To
Which is why don't really get what's there to "protect" Crazy


"Hear me, hounds of Sauron, Gandalf is here! Fly if you value your foul skins, I will shrivel you from tail to snout if you step within this circle!"

"Do not be to eager to deal out death in judgement. Even the very wise cannot see all ends."


geordie
Tol Eressea

Aug 18 2012, 6:49pm

Post #88 of 245 (1392 views)
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That's right - [In reply to] Can't Post

- I, for one.
.


Spaldron
Rivendell


Aug 18 2012, 6:53pm

Post #89 of 245 (1410 views)
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No quite what I meant [In reply to] Can't Post


Quote
Would it change your thinking to know that the Tolkien Estate is reported to have received nothing from The Lord of the Rings films until the studio was forced by legal action to pay the 7.5% (I think) share only recently after how many years? Your post relies entirely that this is false.


Actually I was referring to the royalties from the massive increases in book sales (millions apparently) as a result of the films popularity, not the royalties from the films themselves. In fact I wasn't even aware the TE even received a cut from the films so technically my point is sound.

"A single dream is more powerful than a thousand realities."


Spaldron
Rivendell


Aug 18 2012, 6:56pm

Post #90 of 245 (1337 views)
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Here here. [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
Peter Jackson has done more for Tolkien's work than anyone has. Kids that wouldn't have ever even considered reading Tolkien pick the books up because they liked the movies.

C. Tolkien should be so lucky that they actually hired a director with talent and appreciation of Tolkien's work to adapt the books, instead of the 98% of Hollywood directors who would've done far, far worse.

I would think one would usually be at least thankful for the huge sums of money that someone puts in one's pocket.


This ^

"A single dream is more powerful than a thousand realities."


Lindele
Gondor


Aug 18 2012, 6:59pm

Post #91 of 245 (1354 views)
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Well in that case [In reply to] Can't Post

I will remember to thank the Lord everyday that someone other than you greenlit the LOTR films...someone able to see the talent and passion in between the lines.

Christopher Tolkien has every right to hate these films. But, yes, it does not matter who adapts them in what way, he would hate it.
I can assure you, as educated and intelligent as he is, he has NO IDEA what adapting a book into a film for the masses is like...and in no way understand what it takes.


Wandering Ranger
Rivendell


Aug 18 2012, 7:10pm

Post #92 of 245 (1382 views)
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but [In reply to] Can't Post

he does have the hugest understanding of what it took his father to create the world that others get so much pleasure out of. It's one thing to not agree with his stance on the films, but, forgive the bluntness, it is frankly out of order to openly attack him for it. When a man spends his life creating a world like Tolkien did and then entrusts that world to his son, his son is going to be extremely protective of it.

So Frodo Baggins boarded the great ship and passed on into the west till the sweet fragrance on the air filled his sense and the sound of singing came over the water. Then it seemed to him that, as in a dream, he beheld white shores and beyond them a far green country. The third age of Middle Earth was over, the days of the Rings had passed and the story and song of those times was at an end.


Maiarmike
Grey Havens


Aug 18 2012, 7:12pm

Post #93 of 245 (1388 views)
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Hence, my first mention being about all that Jackson has done to further Tolkien's influence... [In reply to] Can't Post

...and my last mention, being about money.

Nice try.

"I warn you, if you bore me, I shall take my revenge"
--J.R.R. Tolkien


Wandering Ranger
Rivendell


Aug 18 2012, 7:13pm

Post #94 of 245 (1420 views)
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was that to me? [In reply to] Can't Post

if so nice try at what?

So Frodo Baggins boarded the great ship and passed on into the west till the sweet fragrance on the air filled his sense and the sound of singing came over the water. Then it seemed to him that, as in a dream, he beheld white shores and beyond them a far green country. The third age of Middle Earth was over, the days of the Rings had passed and the story and song of those times was at an end.


Lacrimae Rerum
Grey Havens

Aug 18 2012, 7:15pm

Post #95 of 245 (1479 views)
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No, no, now I'll have to put the tin hat on that one. [In reply to] Can't Post

This has nothing to do with being "casual" or not taking the source "seriously". It has to with how people believe narratives operate. Not believing in "protectionism" is not an indication of not being serious about the source.

If a parent does not believe that their child needs to be protected from the influences of the Harry Potter books, that does not make them more casual about their children than someone who does.

Besides, if our primary goal is to ensure no one misinterprets the works and we do not mind if people dont engage with them where there is a risk of misinterpretation, wouldn't the logical thing to wish for be that all versions of Tolkien's works be rounded up and removed. We have no danger of misinterpretation then!

LR


Maiarmike
Grey Havens


Aug 18 2012, 7:15pm

Post #96 of 245 (1373 views)
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No, my response was to RosieLass. [In reply to] Can't Post

She attempted to twist my post upside down to make it look like I alleged C. Tolkien only cares about money, which is probably the least of his concerns.

"I warn you, if you bore me, I shall take my revenge"
--J.R.R. Tolkien


Gorbag
Rivendell


Aug 18 2012, 7:33pm

Post #97 of 245 (1309 views)
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Perfectly put.// [In reply to] Can't Post

 

“I don't know half of you half as well as I should like; and I like less than half of you half as well as you deserve.” - J.R.R. Tolkien, The Fellowship of the Ring


Finrod
Rohan


Aug 18 2012, 7:37pm

Post #98 of 245 (1389 views)
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The Voice of Saruman and the Call of Mammon [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
. . . and all the [Tolkien Estate] have done ever since is complain about it (although presumably they haven't complained about the millions of $$$ the films have brought in to fill the [Tolkien Estate]'s coffers right?). It just seems a tad hypocritical to so publicly berate an excellent series of films that have increased Tolkien's works [sic] popularity 100x fold [sic] and guaranteed the [Tolkien Estate]'s financial security for generations to come. If [Christopher Tolkien] hates the films so much then why doesn't he stick to his convictions and just give away all the money he's made of [sic] the back of them [sic]? Or go even further and publicly criticise his father for selling the rights in the first place?


There’s so much wrong with all that I don’t even know where to start. Perhaps it’s best to have an old friend speak for me, for he states openly and plainly what is in my own secret heart:
There was a heavy silence. It was Gimli the dwarf who broke in suddenly. ‘The words of this wizard stand on their heads,’ he growled, gripping the handle of his axe.
That should suffice, but lest there be any doubt, I shall perforce expand upon it, even if only a tiny bit; I’ll keep this shorter than it demands and longer than it deserves.

Perhaps most importantly is that it would have been summarily hypocritical of him if Christopher had so worshipped at Mammon’s altar that his opinion, appreciation, and perception of a piece of art could be so cheaply bought — and no less a piece of art than that great one with which he has been deeply, intimately, and passionately involved for his entire remarkably long life.

Christopher is clearly a gentleman of surpassing integrity, yet you would have him cast that away forever, all for a mere forty pieces of silver. Thank God he is a better man than that!

Secondly, but hardly lastly, Christopher has done very nearly the exact opposite of “complaining about the sale of the rights since the day they were sold.” He has done nothing of the sort, and it denigrates his honor to suggest otherwise. History is against you here, and so too should be all fair-minded folk.

There’s more to be said, but others will have to say it, because I’ve not the stomach for it, not in a warped world where perspective, restraint, respect, honor, character, dignity, and integrity have all but died.

…all eyes looked upon the ring; for he held it now aloft, and the green jewels gleamed there that the Noldor had devised in Valinor. For this ring was like to twin serpents, whose eyes were emeralds, and their heads met beneath a crown of golden flowers, that the one upheld and the other devoured; that was the badge of Finarfin and his house.
The Silmarillion, pp 150-151
while Felagund laughs beneath the trees
in Valinor and comes no more
to this grey world of tears and war.
The Lays of Beleriand, p 311




AinurOlorin
Half-elven


Aug 18 2012, 7:51pm

Post #99 of 245 (1288 views)
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If the film is the child [In reply to] Can't Post

then it is not a matter of influence but of direct alteration. You would not want your child to be given an actual third eye, and represented as an anamoly in a circus, and remembered thus for the rest of his days by the majority of the population, with only your kith and kin recalling that he or she was once a two eyed child living a typical life.


Also there are changes, and then there are *cue Bowie music* CH CH CH CH CHANGEEES!

The former is managable, can work well, and is to be expected. . . the later Frown

There are omissions and additions that really don't greatly alter the work, especially those additions that could easily have occured, for example, there being a female Elf guard named Tauriel present in Thranduil's halls, or Gandalf briefly visiting The Olde Forest to ask if Old Bombadil has noted any dark and unusual happenings in his part of the North of Eriador. . .

Then there are CHANGES that upset the entire order of the story and challange the relative facts of the source. . . i.e. The Black Arrow fails to take down Smaug, and Tauriel shows up and puts fifty more arrows into the same vulnerable spot in the space of thirty seconds, or Tom Bombadil puts Gandalf under a pleasant and enchanted slumber, and tells him to rest from his labours whilst Old Tom sees to his errands, reminds Saruman of whom he was truly sent in service of, and helps to flush out that schemeing Sauron.

In essence, its all the difference between, "well that could have happened, but its not in the story etc." and "oh HELL naaaw! That did not, could not and WOULD not have happened! Where the devil are you getting these crazy notions?!" lol

"Hear me, hounds of Sauron, Gandalf is here! Fly if you value your foul skins, I will shrivel you from tail to snout if you step within this circle!"

"Do not be to eager to deal out death in judgement. Even the very wise cannot see all ends."


Lacrimae Rerum
Grey Havens

Aug 18 2012, 8:00pm

Post #100 of 245 (1326 views)
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No no [In reply to] Can't Post

The film is not the child. The attitude is one of protectionism or not. I don't believe a story is damaged by different tellings or different elements but thrives on it.

And one's attitude to different elements depends entirely on what one is looking for and how it plays out. I have no issue with conflicting details in different tellings.

LR

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