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Shelob'sAppetite
Doriath
Aug 12 2012, 10:44pm
Post #51 of 87
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There are, but they have little to no power
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Unlike the guardians of the French language, who are highly institutionalized and very influential.
The guardians of the English language are simply those who insist that certain arbitrary standards of grammar, cemented at some arbitrary time in history, should be enforced with rigor and intolerance.
Tolkien had no patience for that sort of thing, and I don't either.
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redgiraffe
Nargothrond
Aug 13 2012, 4:51am
Post #52 of 87
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"People still write to us about LOTR. So for us it's ongoing and that's part of the joy; realising you're creating something that's entertaining people and hopefully will entertain them for years to come... long after we're all gone." Support for the argument that PJ may go and change some parts of LOTR? Hmmmm.... (PS: Thought I'd repost this here since it's more appropriate for this thread than the next.)
But I'm thinking it's unlikely that he will do this seeing as the extra scenes he wanted to film are going into the hobbit movies.
But my dream would be him changing some things to Return of the King. If he were going to I would really want to see him redo some of the Paths of the dead stuff and make it more like the book and not have them show up at the end. But that's probably the least likely thing to happen. A boy can dream though.
But if he does add stuff to ROTK I would LOVE to see stuff about the battles fought elsewhere with the elves and dwarves. And that would probably be the most likely thing to happen if it ever does.
But again I think he's just expanding the hobbit.
-Sir are you classified as human
-Negative, I am a meat-popsicle
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redgiraffe
Nargothrond
Aug 13 2012, 4:55am
Post #53 of 87
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I know some people think this means that the 2nd & 3rd films will be called Part 1 & Part 2, but nothing in the article indicates that. That sentence just refers to the fact that there will now be 3 films instead of 2. PJ won't make a film that doesn't stand on it's own. Expect 3 individual titles for 3 individual films.
I completely agree. IMO, The thing that was bad about DH being split into two parts is that part 1 didn't seem to stand on its own. It didn't lead up to a thrilling climax. And it just felt as if they were trying to get stuff filmed and out of the way for the 2nd part.
But I trust PJ will be able to make 3 films that he knows how to structure story-wise that will lead to a fulfilling climax and allows each one to stand on it's own, so to speak; even if it means cutting the story at an odd place in the book.
-Sir are you classified as human
-Negative, I am a meat-popsicle
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redgiraffe
Nargothrond
Aug 13 2012, 4:58am
Post #54 of 87
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To me, all I see is Harry Potter and the Deathly Hallows. No Part 1 & 2. When the first part ends, there's no emotional build-up to the end of that film. It's simply a pause before resuming the same movie in Part 2. The Lord of the Rings films are much different. Each film is an entity onto itself, with a self contained story that has an emotional arc and conclusion, even if the overall plot continues into the next film. It feels like 3 books (or volumes) comprising a novel, wheres Harry Potter and the Deathly Hallows feels like one book cut in half.
Didn't see you post this til just now. But THAT is exactly how I feel about DH prt1. it just didn't really lead to an emotional climax. It doesn't stand out as a movie. There's no particular arc for that one. IMO, this really makes for a sub par movie.
-Sir are you classified as human
-Negative, I am a meat-popsicle
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redgiraffe
Nargothrond
Aug 13 2012, 5:10am
Post #55 of 87
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Including myself. An Unexpected Journey will remain the same, and will end somewhere in Mirkwood. Film 2 will involve the death of Smaug. Film 3 the Battle of the Five Armies.
I've honestly always thought that the spider battle in Mirkwood would be quite climactic enough for the end of the first one. This is why I've been a little wary of why it appears that film 1 is going to end with the barrel sequence.
Because in between the spider battle we have the whole ordeal with the Mirkwood Elves and then the barrel sequence. So if those two parts are in film 1 then the spider battle shouldn't be the climax because there's got to be a good 20 minutes or so til' the barrel riding sequence. Which would be a little anti-climactic.
But for the life of me I still can't see where there would be a good climax either in the elven halls or in the barrel riding sequence. Unless the elven halls is really short (and I hope it's not) then we could still have the spider battle as the climax.
But with the edition of the third film I'm hoping then that the Spider battle will be the climax and most of the elven halls will be the beginning of film two. But if this is not the case, I hope, and trust, that PJ will be able to give a good climax to the film somewhere close to the final shots. But we will just have to wait and see.
-Sir are you classified as human
-Negative, I am a meat-popsicle
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redgiraffe
Nargothrond
Aug 13 2012, 5:14am
Post #56 of 87
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I hope they keep the last movie with the same title
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I really like the Title "There and Back Again," and I hope they put this as the title for film 3. I would rather that than "The Battle of Five Armies." I don't know why but it just seems less fitting for the end title to the overall story.
As far as film 2 title goes I don't care as much. I kind of like "The Desolation of Smaug," because it doesn't really tell you what happens except that they will at some point be at Smaug's desolation.
-Sir are you classified as human
-Negative, I am a meat-popsicle
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Shelob'sAppetite
Doriath
Aug 13 2012, 5:32am
Post #57 of 87
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That film 1 is going to end earlier than most people here expect.
My guess is that it will end with the eagle-assisted escape from the goblins and wargs. This provides for a powerful climax and ending.
The Goblin King is dead, Bilbo spars with Gollum, Bilbo acquires the Ring and escapes Goblin Town, the company is assailed by goblins and wargs intent on revenge, and the eagles arrive to fly the company away to safety, with Mirkwood on the horizon, and the Lonely Mountain far, far away in the blue distance.
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DanielLB
Elvenhome
Aug 13 2012, 7:15am
Post #58 of 87
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But would not have much in it! The exact same thing can be said with either the spider attack in Mirkwood and their escape in the barrels.
There is no way film 1 can end before Mirkwood.
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redgiraffe
Nargothrond
Aug 13 2012, 10:05am
Post #59 of 87
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On the one hand I have a similar feeling to DanielLB that if it ends with the eagles there isn't really much room for much story before that.
But on the other hand it all depends on how lengthy they decide to make some parts. For all we know, the battle in Golbin town and the warg attack could be one long extended battle that climax's at the end of the warg attack. I wouldn't be surprised at all if PJ did something like that. And I agree that it is indeed quite climactic.
That might leave a lot for film two if the climax were to be the death of smaug. But...
This is my opinion, 'cause I know yours will probably be different, SA: But when I first finished watching TTT I thought there was no way PJ would be able to cram all of the ending material from TTT book into the ROTK movie. But I think he did a good job of that and it actually made sense with the time frame.
So how all of this works is just going to come down to how PJ does it.
-Sir are you classified as human
-Negative, I am a meat-popsicle
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DanielLB
Elvenhome
Aug 13 2012, 10:17am
Post #60 of 87
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But on the other hand it all depends on how lengthy they decide to make some parts. For all we know, the battle in Golbin town and the warg attack could be one long extended battle that climax's at the end of the warg attack. I wouldn't be surprised at all if PJ did something like that. And I agree that it is indeed quite climactic.
I had never thought of it being lengthy. Could easily be changed though. I'd still feel better though if film 1 ended in Mirkwood. Would feel like they've made some progress. And the structure isn't too disimilar to The Fellowship of the Ring.
Rivendell Fellowship = Rivendell Dwarves
Mines of Moria = Gollum and Goblin-town
Lothlorien = Beorn and the Eagles
Breaking of the Fellowship = Attack of the spiders
Not exactly the same, but very similar structure.
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dormouse
Gondolin
Aug 13 2012, 12:41pm
Post #61 of 87
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Another possible end-point....
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I think, is the moment when they reach the edge of Mirkwood and have to say goodbye to Gandalf, send back their ponies and set off on foot into the forest. It always reads to me like the end of one phase of the adventure and spring-board into the next.
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TheBeerBaron
Ossiriand
Aug 13 2012, 1:09pm
Post #62 of 87
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Im still really hoping for film 1 to end with th barrels out of bond sequence. I guess all our questions will have been answered two years from now. So long to wait!!
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DanielLB
Elvenhome
Aug 13 2012, 1:10pm
Post #63 of 87
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There would have to be an action sequence before though? /
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TheBeerBaron
Ossiriand
Aug 13 2012, 1:34pm
Post #64 of 87
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There's the excitement of breaking out of jail, probably some kind of rapids, and then by the looks of it one of the dwarfes (Kili I think) was practising shooting arrows from his barrel. Maybe there is a goblin attack along the way?
I doubt that they're going to remain sealed in their barrels for the whole trip down to Lake Town as if so there would be no point in filming anyone other than Bilbo and thirteen barrels floating down the river. If they were in the barrels then we wouldn't see them anyway.
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DanielLB
Elvenhome
Aug 13 2012, 1:43pm
Post #65 of 87
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I was replying to dormouse :-)
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I want film 1 to either end with the spider attack, or their escape in barrels.
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TheBeerBaron
Ossiriand
Aug 13 2012, 1:47pm
Post #66 of 87
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That could be very exciting
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dormouse
Gondolin
Aug 13 2012, 2:13pm
Post #67 of 87
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Depends how active they make Beorn! 
Or maybe slip in some action relating to Dol Guldur - a message reaching Gandalf about it which tells him he needs to leave....
Seriously, I wasn't saying they will use it. I doubt it's even likely. Just that it's a place I might choose to break the story. Barrels seems to have been the end they were planning and I still think that's quite likely. If they do end with that then I suspect that at some point they'll flash back to the forest edge and show what happened next from Gandalf's point of view.
Of course, the beauty of your spider idea is that we get the spiders over with in the first film (though I'd rather have something after that, to take the memory away!)
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Kangi Ska
Gondolin
Aug 13 2012, 2:42pm
Post #68 of 87
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that you are wrong. I believe that the first film will remain intact and will be completed as planned.
Kangi Ska Resident Trickster & Wicked White Crebain
Life is an adventure, not a contest.
At night you can not tell if crows are black or white.
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DanielLB
Elvenhome
Aug 13 2012, 3:00pm
Post #69 of 87
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And have Gandalf leave the Dwarves (either completely, or for a couple of days) while he goes of to find Radagast and Dol Guldur. Not that I like the idea, but they could do something to make the end more eventful.
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dormouse
Gondolin
Aug 13 2012, 3:16pm
Post #70 of 87
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... no one here can really predict the changes they might make. I can only guess from what's in the book.
One thing, though. Wherever film one ends (same goes for film two) I hope they can manage to make it feel like a real ending. One of the oddest things to me about 'Deathly Hallows' part one was that I had no idea beforehand where the break would come, couldn't sense it coming in the writing and even when it did it didn't feel like an end. Suddenly there were the credits - and I remember thinking 'oh, is that over, then...' It all seemed very inconclusive, which surely wasn't the effect they were intending.
I don't anticipate this as a problem with 'The Hobbit' because they were careful to steer each part towards a satisfying end, so you could leave the cinema feeling that you'd seen a complete film even though there was more story to come. I think that's important
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Voronwë_the_Faithful
Doriath
Aug 13 2012, 4:24pm
Post #71 of 87
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One of the oddest things to me about 'Deathly Hallows' part one was that I had no idea beforehand where the break would come, couldn't sense it coming in the writing and even when it did it didn't feel like an end. Suddenly there were the credits - and I remember thinking 'oh, is that over, then...' It all seemed very inconclusive, which surely wasn't the effect they were intending.
I have to disagree with that. That had to have been the effect that they were intending, odd as that is, because there simply was no ending. There was no real effort to make that into two separate films. It was one film that was just split into two.
On an even more off-topic note, I can never see your screen name without hearing Grace Slick's voice in my head. Not necessarily a bad thing, since she has a very good voice, and I like the song White Rabbit, quite a bit. But you would think after all this time that would no longer happen. But it does.
'But very bright were the stars upon the margin of the world, when at times the clouds about the West were drawn aside.'
The Hall of Fire
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dormouse
Gondolin
Aug 13 2012, 5:54pm
Post #72 of 87
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.. if that was the effect they intended, then it was a resounding success! But it seemed very odd to me at the time.
(And I'm glad it's not a bad association!)
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Shelob'sAppetite
Doriath
Aug 13 2012, 11:31pm
Post #73 of 87
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I can see dwarven history, the Shire scenes, the trollshaws, initial run in with Radagast, Rivendell, the White Council meeting, the trek to the Misty Mountains, the stone giant sequence, an extended Goblin town sequence where we meet the main villains of film one, a prolonged "death of the Great Goblin" scene, Riddles in the Dark, an extended sequence of Bilbo escaping from Goblin Town, the aftermath of his escape and return to the dwarf company (he does have to find Gandalf and the dwarves, after all), the pursuit by the wargs and goblins, the fiery standoff in the treetops, and the final dramatic rescue by the eagles (likely due to Radagast's assistance), as easily taking up two and a half hours of screentime, if not three.
The reason we think "there's not a lot there" is because we are used to thinking about how short the Hobbiton-to-Frying Pan Into the Fire segment is in the book. But in terms of actual substance, a whole lot actually happens, and PJ added Dol Guldur stuff will fill that out even more.
I am quite convinced that film 1 will end with the eagle rescue.
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DanielLB
Elvenhome
Aug 13 2012, 11:39pm
Post #74 of 87
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It just doesn't *feel* like it could be a self contained (good and successful) film
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One part of it is down to the natural break in the book. The second part is because I'm so use to thinking that the duology was going to be split with the barrel escape. It's always seemed like a good idea. Now there are three films, I still think it's a good place to end film 1. I also don't think the Goblintown sequence should be the "main battle" of film 1. The spider sequence, and the separation of the Dwarves seems a lot better - more terrifying.
In terms of everything you suggested, yes it is a lot. But to me, that seems like everything up until Lothlorien in The Fellowship of the Ring.
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Shelob'sAppetite
Doriath
Aug 13 2012, 11:45pm
Post #75 of 87
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And there really is too much in Fellowship.
Think of the jarringly quick transitions from the Shire to Bree, from Hollin to Caradhras, from Caradhras to the Mines of Moria, and from Moria to Lothlorien.
It really is like hopping along stones across a river. Makes Middle Earth seem quite small.
This is why I am excited about the Hobbit in three films. They will breathe more.
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