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Finding Frodo
Dor-Lomin
Jul 28 2012, 3:36am
Post #1 of 5
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The Hobbit chapter 3: "A Short Rest" open discussion
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Though it's a short chapter, I know I barely skimmed the surface with my discussion questions. Feel free to bring up any topics or questions of your own. Thank you, everyone, for your patience and participation!
Where's Frodo?
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sador
Gondolin
Jul 31 2012, 6:19am
Post #2 of 5
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Since you've asked for it, one question:
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He took it and gazed long at it, and he shook his head; for if he did not altogether approve of dwarves and their love of gold, he hated dragons and their cruel wickedness, and he grieved to remember the ruin of the town of Dale and its merry bells, and the burned banks of the bright River Running.
How long is it since Elrond travelled so far East?
Thank you for leading us this week, Finding Frodo! It makes me feel a newbie again...
"Is the mountain more dangerous because it is personified? Are the nights not scary enough unless they are actively plotting against the dwarves?"
- Arwen's Daughter.
The weekly discussion of The Hobbit is back. Join us in the Reading Room for A Short Rest!
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dernwyn
Forum Admin
/ Moderator
Aug 5 2012, 9:42pm
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The Dwarf-kingdom under Erebor was founded in 1999, so I think we can assume that Dale came into being within a few decades as the new kingdom prospered. It won't be until 771 years later (2770) that the two are destroyed by Smaug.
I can imagine Elrond making the journey a couple of times, just to keep an eye on things. But Celebrian was wounded in 2509, and he probably didn't feel like doing much travel after that.
So I'd say it had been at least two hundred years since Elrond had seen Dale. Having Elf-memory, he would remember it well.
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"I desired dragons with a profound desire"
"It struck me last night that you might write a fearfully good romantic drama, with as much of the 'supernatural' as you cared to introduce. Have you ever thought of it?"
-Geoffrey B. Smith, letter to JRR Tolkien, 1915
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sador
Gondolin
Aug 6 2012, 8:22am
Post #4 of 5
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No, I don't think we can assume that
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According to Thorin, in An Unexpected Party:
Long ago in my grandfather Thror's time our family was driven out of the far North, and came back with all their wealth and their tools to this Mountain... my grandfather was King under the Mountain again and treated with great reverence by the mortal men, who lived to the South, and were gradually spreading up the Running River as far as the valley overshadowed by the Mountain. They built the merry town of Dale there in those days. This would indicate that Dale was founded some time after the second establishment of the Kingdom under the Mountain in 2590.
Also, if Elrond
grieved to remember the ruin of the town of Dale and its merry bells, and the burned banks of the bright River Running
this implies he was there after Smaug came, and saw the desolation. Or at least knew the place well enough to vividly imagine it when the disaster was reported,
"Is the mountain more dangerous because it is personified? Are the nights not scary enough unless they are actively plotting against the dwarves?"
- Arwen's Daughter.
The weekly discussion of The Hobbit is back. Join us in the Reading Room for A Short Rest!
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dernwyn
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Aug 6 2012, 12:00pm
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You're right, somehow I glossed over the words "the ruin of" when re-reading that quote! So it would have been within the previous 200 - or more accurately, 170 - years that Elrond travelled out there, but he must also have been there previously in order to give the comparison between the ruined and unruined town.
The Tale of Years shows that in 2210 Thorin I left Erebor and went to the Grey Mountains, but I had always assumed that some Dwarves stayed behind and kept up the Kingdom, since there was no indication that all of them had to leave. I guess it just seemed odd to me that a place like that would be totally abandoned.
But you're right, the text does indicate that Dale was not actually established until that return to Erebor. And with the return of the Dwarves being 2590, and the attack of Smaug being 2770, then the town was in existence for at most 180 years. So Elrond would have visited it at least once in that time period.
That's interesting, I just realized that at the time of Bilbo's journey, Dale had been in ruins for about as long as it had been active!
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"I desired dragons with a profound desire"
"It struck me last night that you might write a fearfully good romantic drama, with as much of the 'supernatural' as you cared to introduce. Have you ever thought of it?"
-Geoffrey B. Smith, letter to JRR Tolkien, 1915
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