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Lacrimae Rerum
Hithlum
Aug 3 2012, 4:44pm
Post #51 of 73
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The LOTR was deemed to be un-splittable until after it was finished. Tolkien felt it was probably unpublishable and offered to write something shorter which he felt might be more saleable. Now it is not entirely comparable but in that instance it is almost more like Jackson having shot a single 7.5hour film and then deciding afterwards to break it up.
The story itself (and I know you know this, but I'm just reflecting) was nothing like the story he set out to tell - completely different in form, tone and content and much, much longer than originally planned!
I suppose it depends on your underlying assumptions and maybe there was a better LOTR in what Tolkien originally planned. He may have "expanded matters at the expense of the story" but I suppose it turned out quite well.
Now TH may or may not. I suppose all I am saying is that you can get great results not following the plan and adding to the planned scope doesn't always go wrong. In fact we don't really have any evidence to point us either way at the moment (as ever, IMO)
Now on the audience thing though I must be firm in my views. There is a lot of slippage these days but for me the audience's role is simple. We are there to respond to the work and judge it. We aren't there to be involved, have a bit of dabble, design by consensus or anything similar in my view. The reader picks up the book when it's released and doesn't pull up a chair next to the author suggest moving chapters around or making it a bit shorter. We look at a painting in a gallery and would not be thanked for having a pop at remounting it ourselves. Download from ITunes, by all means, but don't sit outside the studio expecting to have a go on the mixing decks.
We all have two fantastic opportunities to exercise our audience role. Firstly if we don't like the look of the work we can choose not to pay to see it - our greatest censure. Secondly we can see it and then respond, internally or externally, and we can judge it to our own standards. But I firmly believe that is our end of the bargain.
It is the artists' work. They can do whatever they want. We are then free to buy it or not, to like it or not. I can't see how else the relationship can be conceived of.
I am not sure what investment we have put in? Or what rights have accrued? I don't understand what pressure we could possibly bring to bear to "demand" anything?
If we don't feel we like the look of the restaurant buffet then we don't have to order, if we don't like the food we can respond and judge it accordingly. I don't think we can pop into the kitchen and start suggesting recipes, personally.
LR
(This post was edited by Lacrimae Rerum on Aug 3 2012, 4:47pm)
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Magpie
Elvenhome
Aug 3 2012, 4:51pm
Post #52 of 73
(4946 views)
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well... just scanning subject lines : at least 8
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...and I didn't read the posts so there might be more.
It is wise to remember that we have a very wide range of demographics here. Ages run from 15 (and perhaps younger) to mid 60s (and perhaps older). We have women and men. We have highly educated, academic people and self taught souls. We have people who live on multiple continents - in large cities, college towns, and rural areas. We have people who would rather talk weapon design and people who would rather talk character development and people who would rather talk about Tolkien's invented languages.
I think sometimes it seems like the whole world agrees with us when we get a nice little community of like minds who are vocal. But even here on TORn, where we all share a great deal of interests and opinions, the Hobbit board is a bit of itself. There is a cadre of regulars who are active and vocal but that cadre doesn't represent the message boards as a whole... the site as a whole... or the Tolkien fandom as a whole.
I also find a great deal of what is discussed here not to my interest (which seems more nicely put than 'boring'). But as an almost 60 year old, mother of two, ex-educator (probably about as opposite of you as possible. :-) ), I would caution you that what any of us thinks probably represents only a small percentage of what people as a whole think. One can feel very strongly about something and have complete faith in their beliefs. But the truth is, what we think and believe is not a very accurate forecast of what everyone else thinks. To get a better idea of what other people think, we have to step a bit outside of our own tastes and preferences and listen to other people, especially those who disagree.
And would it matter if only three people found this thread interesting?
:-)
All said in good spirit.
LOTR soundtrack website ~ magpie avatar gallery
TORn History Mathom-house ~ Torn Image Posting Guide
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peleowyn
Ossiriand
Aug 3 2012, 6:03pm
Post #53 of 73
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I and my friends enjoyed your article so much! It makes us want to go back and re-read parts of Brian Sibley's book on Peter Jackson, 'A Filmmakers journey' ... Thanks for taking the time to write such a great article!
"Look! There is light, and beauty up there, that no Shadow can touch!"
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Captain Salt
Dor-Lomin
Aug 3 2012, 7:16pm
Post #54 of 73
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Not so much suggesting recipes as reacting after ordering a meal and getting it in three segments several hours apart and caked in fat
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These metaphors and similes are all very sketchy, but you get my point! :P
As for the artist (working artists anyway) and the audience, it's a cyclical relationship - one can't exist without the other. Especially if you're adapting a pre-existing source material, you're beholden to the original author and fans to adapt a semblance of his work - up to a point. PJ's job is make good films first, and good adaptations second...but now, my serious worry that TH will be neither.
If it's an original work, I agree the filmmaker really has the freedom to do as he/she will. If it's an adaptation or continuation of a beloved property, there's baggage, there's history...TH belongs to everyone, and no one. I was totally onboard when Philipa said that no one fan can claim to be the "defender or the legendarium", but I also agree with those who feel PJ can't totally usurp or alter Tolkien's work and try to pass it off as an adaptation.
BTW, just to see our previous metaphor to its inevitable conclusion: Fran looks like she could smash PJ like a bug anyway. To be honest, I'd be more worried about his beating Richard Taylor or somebody! :P ;)
My Top 5 Wish List for "The Hobbit"
5. Legolas will surf down Smaug's neck
4. Bilbo will be revealed to a Robot
3. Naked PJ cameo as Ghan-Buri-Ghan
2. Use of not only 3D, but smell-o-vision, plus the inclusion of axes coming out of the seats and poking the audience when appropriate
1. Not only keep the claim that Thorin & Co. ran amok in Mirkwood "molesting people", but depict said incident in vivid detail!!!!!
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Lindele
Mithlond
Aug 3 2012, 7:58pm
Post #55 of 73
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This is the first smart, positive, productive, worth while post I have seen regarding the three movie announcement.
This was incredibly insightful and heartwarming :)
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Lindele
Mithlond
Aug 3 2012, 8:01pm
Post #56 of 73
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then why are you here?
simple solution, see!!!
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Lacrimae Rerum
Hithlum
Aug 3 2012, 8:43pm
Post #57 of 73
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Ha ah ah but it is a buffet not a la carte.
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Serving the many (I'll never give up on a metaphor when there is a chance of a cheese course)
Now I completely agree that the audience is a vital part of the relationship - but for me it is a bounded role which is about response, not co-creation.
It's the "can't" bit that I'm struggling with, Usually if you say someone "can't" do something then it means there is something preventing them or that we have a recourse to prevent it. In this case I don't understand how those things might come into play?
As to who owns The Hobbit, in terms of adaptation, it is the people who paid for it. That may not be as we would like it but we can thank Tolkien for that one!
In terms of "can" of course there are a whole host of possibilities. Jackson and the licensee "can" make a film about Bilbo's journey to the 29th century and his battle with the naked Galadriel robots. They "can" make a series of films about Gandalf the serial killer who slaughters the dwarves one by one.
In any and all of these cases we have only two sanctions - not to pay or to see it and respond with poor judgement. I am constantly surprised by how unwilling people are to excercise the first option! Particularly those who didn't enjoy LOTR, it seems a little bonkers to me to keep paying the chap. To flog the metaphor a little further that's the customer who eats the first meal, thinks it's awful but says they will be back next week for some more!
I suppose the bit I don't understand is the judging before one has seen it. I'm not sure of the advantage vs waiting.
And at least Richard has a selection of weapons to choose from to defend himself with.
LR
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Morok Cloudkeeper
Nargothrond
Aug 3 2012, 9:47pm
Post #58 of 73
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As interesting as I find some of these threads. I never liked discussing Tolkien by writing it to others. I always enjoy talking to people about it in person. Well there's an idea! Wouldn't it be great if Torn had something similar like Skype that would allow us fellow ringers to communicate amongst ourselves? Or maybe there is, I missed it perhaps.
Your work is going to fill a large part of your life, and the only way to be truly satisfied is to do what you believe is great work. And the only way to do great work is to love what you do. If you haven't found it yet, keep looking. Don't settle.
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Eowyn of Penns Woods
Doriath
Aug 3 2012, 10:37pm
Post #59 of 73
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The "you can't really read tone on the internet" defense would go right out the window! ;) //
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**********************************
NABOUF
Not a TORns*b!
Certified Curmudgeon
Knitting Knerd
NARF: NWtS Chapter Member since June 17,2011
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Captain Salt
Dor-Lomin
Aug 4 2012, 2:55am
Post #60 of 73
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Of course, Peter is the creator...but IMO, in an instance such as this, it's not unreasonable for the audience to not co-create, but react to PJ's decision...
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To again go back to the food metaphor, it's akin to seeing something on the menu; agreeing to it's being served; then being given something else. The audience here certainly shouldn't act as a focus group, but can hold the studios/filmmaker accountable is they attempt to sell a product lesser than what was advertised for promised. Given the extremely unorthodox (and IMO unwise) approach to these films, the end result has been called into question. To use another example: think of a car manufacturer that changes the design of the car mid-way through it's being assembled; what happens if after they add another seat, the structure is weakened and I fall through the door?! 
Of course, you're correct in that the audience has the option not pay to see the films - but I (as have so many), have been greatly anticipating these films, and will see them in theaters no matter what - it's just that PJ is now taking chances (again IMO), with an established "formula", one which lead to his previous LotR films which (IMO) were fantastic and three of my favorite films of all time. I'm rooting for PJ, but (final IMO, I promise), he's just created another massive obstacle for himself, and I worry the films will suffer as a result.
I should have included more "my suspicion's" and "IMO's" in my original post, as of course, I'm not certain. This is how the outlook looks now, but of course, we'll have to wait to see the films before any final judgement can be reached.
I'd love to be pleasantly surprised. I've been Jackson champion until now, so we'll see what the next 4.5 months brings.
BTW, I would SO go to see that Gandalf serial killer movie! 
My Top 5 Wish List for "The Hobbit"
5. Legolas will surf down Smaug's neck
4. Bilbo will be revealed to a Robot
3. Naked PJ cameo as Ghan-Buri-Ghan
2. Use of not only 3D, but smell-o-vision, plus the inclusion of axes coming out of the seats and poking the audience when appropriate
1. Not only keep the claim that Thorin & Co. ran amok in Mirkwood "molesting people", but depict said incident in vivid detail!!!!!
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Eowyn of Penns Woods
Doriath
Aug 4 2012, 4:57am
Post #61 of 73
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the audience has the option not pay to see the films - but I (as have so many), have been greatly anticipating these films, and will see them in theaters no matter what
...This! And to be quite blunt about it, I find the all too frequent 'Well, if you don't like [insert critique or worry of your choice here], THEN JUST DON'T GO SEE THE MOVIES!!!11!' refrain (even if merely and more politely implied) to be a really $&*##% thing to say, as if there's a 100% positivity requirement for watching films based on a beloved book by a favorite author. And I don't care who does it; nobody gets a pass on that one, not from me. There's no 'You must be *this* big a PJ fan to enter' sign outside the theater like at an amusement park ride or any sort of Real Fan measurement requirement for entry that I know of.
If TORn was intended to be an echo chamber for any one collective voice, the founders would have made the Fiesta Bar shower stall much bigger. ;) Just sayin'.
**********************************
NABOUF
Not a TORns*b!
Certified Curmudgeon
Knitting Knerd
NARF: NWtS Chapter Member since June 17,2011
(This post was edited by Eowyn of Penns Woods on Aug 4 2012, 5:02am)
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Lacrimae Rerum
Hithlum
Aug 4 2012, 10:35am
Post #62 of 73
(4738 views)
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Ah but where does the agreement come in?
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That's the bit that I'm not sure of.
Interesting coincidence the BBC have just broadcast a short radio documentary about the Humphrey Carpenter school musical version of The Hobbit (with tapes of the performance - very interesting actually).
Now I can listen to it as an audience member and respond to it and judge it. But, there was no agreement on my part, or to my mind reason why there should be any agreement, to it being made. Neither the audiences since or the contemporary one made an agreement about the form, or the content, or the existance of the adaptation.
There's just a different view of the relationship in here somewhere.
LR
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Lacrimae Rerum
Hithlum
Aug 4 2012, 11:31am
Post #64 of 73
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And just wanted to throw in, as the person the Captain has been struggling to find a dinner venue with, that wasn't what I was suggesting here.
LR
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Captain Salt
Dor-Lomin
Aug 4 2012, 3:58pm
Post #65 of 73
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True enough...unless I can't decide whether I like the film or not and develop Gollum/Smeagol-esque double personalities! ;) //
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My Top 5 Wish List for "The Hobbit"
5. Legolas will surf down Smaug's neck
4. Bilbo will be revealed to a Robot
3. Naked PJ cameo as Ghan-Buri-Ghan
2. Use of not only 3D, but smell-o-vision, plus the inclusion of axes coming out of the seats and poking the audience when appropriate
1. Not only keep the claim that Thorin & Co. ran amok in Mirkwood "molesting people", but depict said incident in vivid detail!!!!!
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Captain Salt
Dor-Lomin
Aug 4 2012, 4:07pm
Post #66 of 73
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I suppose in this case it's more about presentation than inception...
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The "ingredients" here will largely remain the same, but will culminate in a very different end result...it's a matter of the work being created by the artist, (over which the audience has no say), but how it's being given to the audience.
Of course, the audience has no say over what the artist sets out to create, but IMO if the end result is sub-par or differs from what was initially "sold" to the audience, then the artist has been less then successful. And of course, artistic success is totally subjective...but if much of the audience feels similarly, then there's really no reason why they can't call the artist on it, IMO.
By that, certainly there's no expectation that PJ and Co. will revert back to two films, but it's nice to be able to express one's concerns all the same.
My Top 5 Wish List for "The Hobbit"
5. Legolas will surf down Smaug's neck
4. Bilbo will be revealed to a Robot
3. Naked PJ cameo as Ghan-Buri-Ghan
2. Use of not only 3D, but smell-o-vision, plus the inclusion of axes coming out of the seats and poking the audience when appropriate
1. Not only keep the claim that Thorin & Co. ran amok in Mirkwood "molesting people", but depict said incident in vivid detail!!!!!
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Captain Salt
Dor-Lomin
Aug 4 2012, 4:19pm
Post #67 of 73
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In any event, still excited to see how this all turns out and hoping for the best!
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That's something which I think we can agree on!
My Top 5 Wish List for "The Hobbit"
5. Legolas will surf down Smaug's neck
4. Bilbo will be revealed to a Robot
3. Naked PJ cameo as Ghan-Buri-Ghan
2. Use of not only 3D, but smell-o-vision, plus the inclusion of axes coming out of the seats and poking the audience when appropriate
1. Not only keep the claim that Thorin & Co. ran amok in Mirkwood "molesting people", but depict said incident in vivid detail!!!!!
(This post was edited by Captain Salt on Aug 4 2012, 4:20pm)
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Lacrimae Rerum
Hithlum
Aug 4 2012, 8:25pm
Post #68 of 73
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Is sub par then, of course, it is very much our role to judge and be critical. I couldn't agree more.
I'm still not sure about promises mind you!
LR
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Shelob'sAppetite
Doriath
Aug 4 2012, 9:06pm
Post #69 of 73
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Fellowship felt very, very rushed
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The hop, skips and jumps from Bree to Rivendell, and from Rivendell to Hollin to Caradhras, and from Moria to Lorien to Amon Hen felt more like a 'best of' reel for the Fellowship, than a full film. Only Moria and Amon Hen slowed down to let the story unfold naturally.
Everything before Merry and Pippin bump into Frodo and Sam is also not rushed, and is the best bit for it.
I am very excited about three films. It means, to me, that we won't get that videogamish port from her to there in seconds.
Great move by PJ.
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AinurOlorin
Gondolin
Aug 5 2012, 7:19am
Post #70 of 73
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I worry that it may turn people away from the book. One of my sincere concerns is
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that masses of people who would have really enjoyed a simpler, more true to form telling of The Hobbit, will simply be overwhelmed by this offering and daunted into aversion. . . that they will come to think of The Hobbit as truly being a Lord of The Rings Prequel Saga. One of the great benefits of PJ's films was that they opened up the world of Tolkien to so many people that would have otherwise never found it. The release of The Hobbit trilogy is going to inspire so many more people to read the book. They'll then probably wonder where the Dol Guldur plot is. Then, hopefully, they will carrying on reading Tolkien.
And I think that's a great (indirect) benefit. Long live the books!
"Hear me, hounds of Sauron, Gandalf is here! Fly if you value your foul skins, I will shrivel you from tail to snout if you step within this circle!"
"Do not be to eager to deal out death in judgement. Even the very wise cannot see all ends."
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AinurOlorin
Gondolin
Aug 5 2012, 7:20am
Post #71 of 73
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Well said indeed. the audience has the option not pay to see the films - but I (as have so many), have been greatly anticipating these films, and will see them in theaters no matter what ...This! And to be quite blunt about it, I find the all too frequent 'Well, if you don't like [ insert critique or worry of your choice here], THEN JUST DON'T GO SEE THE MOVIES!!!11!' refrain (even if merely and more politely implied) to be a really $&*##% thing to say, as if there's a 100% positivity requirement for watching films based on a beloved book by a favorite author. And I don't care who does it; nobody gets a pass on that one, not from me. There's no 'You must be *this* big a PJ fan to enter' sign outside the theater like at an amusement park ride or any sort of Real Fan measurement requirement for entry that I know of. If TORn was intended to be an echo chamber for any one collective voice, the founders would have made the Fiesta Bar shower stall much bigger. ;) Just sayin'.
"Hear me, hounds of Sauron, Gandalf is here! Fly if you value your foul skins, I will shrivel you from tail to snout if you step within this circle!"
"Do not be to eager to deal out death in judgement. Even the very wise cannot see all ends."
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AinurOlorin
Gondolin
Aug 5 2012, 7:25am
Post #72 of 73
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Nay, my dear Captain Salt. Peter is the adaptor
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Were he truly the creator, much more leeway would be given (though even creators can go too far according to Stephen King's Misery, "Mr. Man!"  lol). As it is, he is a fan who is in the position of being able to adapt a great work. We are certainly thankful to him for bringing it to the screen, but we are also perfectly entitled to voice dissaproval of some of his alterations, even if we cannot expect him to bow to our complaints.
"Hear me, hounds of Sauron, Gandalf is here! Fly if you value your foul skins, I will shrivel you from tail to snout if you step within this circle!"
"Do not be to eager to deal out death in judgement. Even the very wise cannot see all ends."
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DanielLB
Elvenhome
Aug 5 2012, 8:53am
Post #73 of 73
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But I would think more people would turn to the book, than turn away from it.+
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