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The One Ring Forums: Tolkien Topics: Movie Discussion: The Hobbit:
"Three Films" News will have No Effect on Film One
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Black Breathalizer
Rohan


Aug 3 2012, 2:06pm

Post #1 of 120 (3430 views)
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"Three Films" News will have No Effect on Film One Can't Post

Since the news broke that the Hobbit series will now be 3 films rather than 2, speculation has centered around where the first film will now break given the extra story time.

My theory is that the news changes nothing about the first film. Here is my rationale:

1) First off, I don't believe this was a spur-of-the-moment decision. Jackson and the studios have likely been privately discussing this since early in the shoot (or, more likely, since pre-production.) So the filming took place with the specter of three films already out there.

2) At this point in the post-production process, the edit of film one is pretty much set. The film makers are likely still editing it down but 95% of the film (minus all the special effects) is set. So its extremely late in the game for a major reedit. People like Howard Shore need to have a pretty good sense of the flow of the film long before they record the soundtrack.

3) If you buy into points 1 and 2, then the film makers began editing film one with the three films already in their minds.

So I believe that the announcement of three films only impacted Film Two. It allows the second film to have more "breathing room" (I always thought the events of ROTK would have been better broken down into 2 films). It also solves the serious problem of a second film 'anticlimax' after the death of Smaug plus the Dol Guldur subplot.

Before the "news," my prediction was that the first film would end with barrels out of bondage. My post "news" prediction is exactly the same.

(This post was edited by Black Breathalizer on Aug 3 2012, 2:07pm)


Ardamírë
Valinor


Aug 3 2012, 2:13pm

Post #2 of 120 (1389 views)
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I agree, mostly. [In reply to] Can't Post

I think Film 1 will be minimally impacted, but impacted just the same. I think the ending might come a little earlier than expected (most likely after the battle with the spiders), but will mostly remain the same.

I agree that Film 2 is what will be radically different.

"...and his first memory of Middle-earth was the green stone above her breast, as she sang above his cradle while Gondolin was still in flower."


Black Breathalizer
Rohan


Aug 3 2012, 2:24pm

Post #3 of 120 (1362 views)
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carefully orchestrated [In reply to] Can't Post

Adamire wrote: I think the ending might come a little earlier than expected (most likely after the battle with the spiders), but will mostly remain the same.

Your post assumes that the announcement of three films 'came out of the blue' and caught most of the film crew, as well as the fans, by surprise. I strongly disagree. The people putting together the edit of Film One have known there would be three films for a long time.

IMHO, the release of this news was carefully orchestrated from the 'rumors' right before ComicCon, to Peter Jackson's comments at ComicCon, to the formal announcement.


DanielLB
Immortal


Aug 3 2012, 2:38pm

Post #4 of 120 (1164 views)
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Yes, I've said the same aswell. [In reply to] Can't Post

An Unexpected Journey won't be changed. It makes no sense to end the film anywhere until they are in Mirkwood.


Tmoh
Registered User

Aug 3 2012, 2:41pm

Post #5 of 120 (1202 views)
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agreed [In reply to] Can't Post

 
Thank you, Black Breathalizer. At last somebody who think rationally. Just as you said- there is no posibility what they got the idea of the third film out of a blue- "ooooh, so many people at our Comic Con panel, let's make three films!' At such huge production there are no such spontanious ideas. Of course there is posibility of film ending at inprisonig Dwarfes not at Barrels out of Bond, but unlikely. They wouldn't show barrels in videoblogs if they wanted to put that in the second film.


Voronwë_the_Faithful
Valinor

Aug 3 2012, 2:45pm

Post #6 of 120 (1195 views)
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I agree [In reply to] Can't Post

There is no way that they were able to negotiate all of the additional deals with the actors, and among the different studios, in that amount of time. This has been brewing for many months.

'But very bright were the stars upon the margin of the world, when at times the clouds about the West were drawn aside.'

The Hall of Fire


DanielLB
Immortal


Aug 3 2012, 2:50pm

Post #7 of 120 (1179 views)
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Certainly seems that way [In reply to] Can't Post

As far as I'm aware, the first mention of the 3rd film was from here, at the very start of SDCC:

http://www.variety.com/article/VR1118056497

The rumours must have come from somewhere. Planted deliberatly? More than likely.


Black Breathalizer
Rohan


Aug 3 2012, 2:56pm

Post #8 of 120 (1187 views)
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Communicating change [In reply to] Can't Post

DanielLB wrote: The rumours must have come from somewhere. Planted deliberatly? More than likely.

I agree, Daniel. There is a great blog about this topic that can be found here




dormouse
Half-elven


Aug 3 2012, 3:31pm

Post #9 of 120 (1129 views)
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Agree and disagree, sort of.... [In reply to] Can't Post

I was sure this wouldn't have much impact on film one, until I read Mr Cere's article on the home page. Now I'm not so sure. There are so many possible places Film One could end and which they choose really depends on the placing of Dol Guldur and how much screen time they give to it.

On the assumption (based on the scenes or bits of scenes they've shown us) that the first film was to end with 'Barrels out of Bond' I think it probably still is. My main reason for that is the amount of promotional material - particularly the books - which must be too near completion to change. Also the fact that they are so near to release, with the music still to record and all the post production still to do. (The one doubt which keeps niggling at the back of my mind is that the LotR film books - Two Towers especially - did include scenes that didn't make it into that film.)

But I'm pretty sure you're wrong about the three film split being mooted early on, even in pre-production. If that had been the case, why would they not simply have made the decision then? So much easier all round - I don't think they'd have gone ahead with filming without having decided how many films they were making.

Looking at the way the news broke - it was leaked around the time of Comic-con or just before, the studio said no, then Peter Jackson started hinting, and talking about more filming - I believe what I saw and the announcements and statements that have been made. It fits with Peter Jackson & co's way of doing things, to my mind, that when they started to edit the footage they found there was far more there than could comfortably fit into two films - isn't that just what happened before? Makes sense to me that this comes from him and his team and wasn't exactly spur-of-the-moment - more a growing realisation as they looked at the footage and thought of how much they were going to need to squeeze into film two. Last time they bit the bullet, cut out a lot of stuff and crammed the rest in to one film. This time they've dared to say 'could we?', and manoeuvred the steady drip feed of hints to get the result they wanted, probably by agreeing to a summer (New Zealand winter) release for the third film.

'Barrels out of Bond' still seems quite a likely end to me, for the practical reasons outlined above - I don't think they'd want to make too many changes. But also because it corresponds in the timeline with the end of Gandalf's business at Dol Guldur - in the book as Bilbo rides down the river on a barrel it says that Gandalf has heard what has happened to the dwarves and is about to start searching. Seems a good opportunity to begin 2 with a flashback to what he has been doing since he left them. Or not - what do I know!!


DanielLB
Immortal


Aug 3 2012, 3:41pm

Post #10 of 120 (1036 views)
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Thanks for the link :-) / [In reply to] Can't Post

 


MrCere
Sr. Staff


Aug 3 2012, 4:02pm

Post #11 of 120 (1168 views)
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I definitely do not agree {NT} [In reply to] Can't Post

 

I have no choice but to believe in free will.

The cake is a lie
The cake is a lie
The cake is a lie

My blog




Black Breathalizer
Rohan


Aug 3 2012, 4:05pm

Post #12 of 120 (1065 views)
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a well-kept secret [In reply to] Can't Post

dormouse wrote: I'm pretty sure you're wrong about the three film split being mooted early on, even in pre-production. If that had been the case, why would they not simply have made the decision then? So much easier all round - I don't think they'd have gone ahead with filming without having decided how many films they were making.

As we've already seen, despite a well-orchestrated public relations campaign, there has been some negative feedback concerning the decision to make three films rather than two. So would there have been less negativity if PJ had made this announcement before there was the 'wealth of footage' he could point to as the reason why?

I don't know exactly when the decision to make three films was made, but I would bet a small fortune (and mine is very small) that when the videoblogs were made of the dwarves riding in their barrels, the film makers already knew: 1) there would be three films; and 2) those scenes would appear in Film One.


Captain Salt
Tol Eressea


Aug 3 2012, 4:14pm

Post #13 of 120 (1125 views)
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Can't fathom the new distribution of material... [In reply to] Can't Post

I also feel the end of Film 1 will be moved up, probably to the Spiders/capture by the Elves, or to Out of the Fire (where I ended Film 1 in my fan-fic/outline I posted here a few years back, heh! :P), but can't figure out how we're getting two more films now out of this:

AUJ:
The Shire-(for argument's sake) capture by the Elves

Film 2:
Barrels out of Bond-demise of Smaug

Film 3:
Battle of Five Armies, and...?

Is the third really going to be a two-hour siege film? OY!

Perhaps the Necromancer storyline will continue through all three films? Have no idea.

My Top 5 Wish List for "The Hobbit"
5. Legolas will surf down Smaug's neck
4. Bilbo will be revealed to a Robot
3. Naked PJ cameo as Ghan-Buri-Ghan
2. Use of not only 3D, but smell-o-vision, plus the inclusion of axes coming out of the seats and poking the audience when appropriate
1. Not only keep the claim that Thorin & Co. ran amok in Mirkwood "molesting people", but depict said incident in vivid detail!!!!!


DanielLB
Immortal


Aug 3 2012, 4:22pm

Post #14 of 120 (1140 views)
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Film 3 - Larry sums it up nicely [In reply to] Can't Post


Quote
I see heaps of book content; There are politics, the aftermath of destruction, race tension, the antics of a certain burglar, the gathering of troops from regions of Middle-earth, secret bird messengers, intricate and highly personal character conflict, a big magnificent battle and finally, the wrapping up of all the loose threads. It feels to me like it works very well as a closing to three films



Kangi Ska
Half-elven


Aug 3 2012, 4:30pm

Post #15 of 120 (1044 views)
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I agree with your disagreement [In reply to] Can't Post

but I would like to hear your rational. I think it is more likely as Peter tells it rather than some long term conspiracy.

Kangi Ska Resident Trickster & Wicked White Crebain
Life is an adventure, not a contest.

At night you can not tell if crows are black or white.
Photobucket



Tim
Tol Eressea


Aug 3 2012, 4:31pm

Post #16 of 120 (1064 views)
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There are several problems here that I'd like to point out. [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
Since the news broke that the Hobbit series will now be 3 films rather than 2, speculation has centered around where the first film will now break given the extra story time.

My theory is that the news changes nothing about the first film. Here is my rationale:

1) First off, I don't believe this was a spur-of-the-moment decision. Jackson and the studios have likely been privately discussing this since early in the shoot (or, more likely, since pre-production.) So the filming took place with the specter of three films already out there.

2) At this point in the post-production process, the edit of film one is pretty much set. The film makers are likely still editing it down but 95% of the film (minus all the special effects) is set. So its extremely late in the game for a major reedit. People like Howard Shore need to have a pretty good sense of the flow of the film long before they record the soundtrack.

3) If you buy into points 1 and 2, then the film makers began editing film one with the three films already in their minds.

So I believe that the announcement of three films only impacted Film Two. It allows the second film to have more "breathing room" (I always thought the events of ROTK would have been better broken down into 2 films). It also solves the serious problem of a second film 'anticlimax' after the death of Smaug plus the Dol Guldur subplot.

Before the "news," my prediction was that the first film would end with barrels out of bondage. My post "news" prediction is exactly the same.


To your point one, there is no evidence of such a thing. It is far more likely, given the fluid way PJ creates movies, that things played out "as we saw it". There are no solid reasons for WB or PJ to hide a 3rd movie from us.

To your point two, if you review the "making of" for Return of the King you'll witness that they were still shooting material for that movie all the way up to a month before it was supposed to be released. PJ was driving his creative team crazy by constantly adding and changing things right up to the last minute. I see no reason why PJ would suddenly be a different person for The Hobbit. If anything, the digital medium gives him more flexibility in the creation process.

Also to your point two, I may add that several "major" changes were made to Return of the King on short notice, like adding scenes that were dropped from the Two Towers. PJ has and probably will move chunks of movie about as he see's fit, and he still (on the PJ "last minute" process) has plenty of time to do so.

Just watch the making of documentaries for LOTR. PJ and his creative team were literally re-writing the script daily. They not only were fluid with the script, PJ was fluid with his post process. He is not the kind of guy who storyboards a movie out then sticks to it. He is the kind of guy to make last minute huge changes (like changing the look of Gollum, two years work, to match that of Andy Serkis, something the digital team then had to figure out how to do in two months) and then make his team work insanely to keep up with those changes. PJ is the kind of guy who shoots tons of footage so that he has a lot of material to draw from in the edit. It is very likely they shot a lot of material, then decided to edit some of it out to fit into two movies, then he looked at the edited-out materials and thought "gee, if we shoot x or y to flesh out this edited out stuff, we have ourselves another cool part to add, another movie!"

Things are not as nearly set in stone in the movie making process as you seem to think they are - especially when it comes to Peter Jackson.

King Arthur: You know much that is hidden oh Tim.

Tim: Quite.


Kangi Ska
Half-elven


Aug 3 2012, 4:37pm

Post #17 of 120 (1038 views)
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I think "Barrels out of Bond" will remain the end of movie #1 [In reply to] Can't Post

but they will push most of the Dol Guldur plot forward into Movie #2.

Kangi Ska Resident Trickster & Wicked White Crebain
Life is an adventure, not a contest.

At night you can not tell if crows are black or white.
Photobucket



Captain Salt
Tol Eressea


Aug 3 2012, 4:37pm

Post #18 of 120 (1009 views)
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Yes, but IMO each those things don't really equal a lot of screentime on thier own [In reply to] Can't Post

or add up to equate a narrative - or material interesting enough to sustain an entire film...

Save the battle, which will probably be rather lengthy. Though, Helm's Deep and Pelennor Fields, even the Black Gate, were broken up by other things...which raises the question of how PJ is going to avoid battle fatigue in BoFA?

My Top 5 Wish List for "The Hobbit"
5. Legolas will surf down Smaug's neck
4. Bilbo will be revealed to a Robot
3. Naked PJ cameo as Ghan-Buri-Ghan
2. Use of not only 3D, but smell-o-vision, plus the inclusion of axes coming out of the seats and poking the audience when appropriate
1. Not only keep the claim that Thorin & Co. ran amok in Mirkwood "molesting people", but depict said incident in vivid detail!!!!!


DanielLB
Immortal


Aug 3 2012, 4:40pm

Post #19 of 120 (987 views)
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I disagree [In reply to] Can't Post

This is plenty for film 3:


Quote

I see heaps of book content; There are politics, the aftermath of destruction, race tension, the antics of a certain burglar, the gathering of troops from regions of Middle-earth, secret bird messengers, intricate and highly personal character conflict, a big magnificent battle and finally, the wrapping up of all the loose threads. It feels to me like it works very well as a closing to three films



Sprinkle with a bit of the Dol Guldur and White Council sub-plot, and you have the foundations of an amazing film.

I don't think it's any different (the structure) to The Two Towers.


Earl
Forum Admin / Moderator


Aug 3 2012, 5:14pm

Post #20 of 120 (1019 views)
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Come to think of it, we never saw "There And Back Again" mentioned in the trailer nor on any posters nor anything until now... [In reply to] Can't Post

... it was only loosely mentioned in a press release as the name of the second film.

That leads me to agree with you that this whole third film thingey wasn't a sudden decision. Which, in a way, actually makes me feel better towards it Crazy

I believe Film 1 will focus solely on Bilbo's journey exactly according to the book until their escape from Thranduil's Halls. They'll throw in bits of Gandalf's venture into Dol Guldur in search of Thrain. They'll show him speaking with Elrond in Rivendell about the Necromancer, and have that telepathic meeting with Galadriel happen there. And that will set up the stage for Film 2.

Film 2 will follow Bilbo's journey to Lake Town and the Lonely Mountain. We'll get Bard and the master and Alfrid all fleshed out. But majorly, this is the film that will focus on the White Council - Necromancer storyline, and will probably end with his ousting running parallel to Smaug's attack on Laketown and his subsequent death. This follows the book timeline. There'll be a cliffhanger of course, probably a shot of Bolg son of Azog setting out for battle.

Film 3 will focus once again on BIlbo's journey - the gathering of the clouds and the battle of five armies. There'll be lots of Thranduil interacting with Bard and the Master, we'll get introduced to Dain, Gandalf will return, and battle will ensue. It will all end according to the book with a return to Bag End.

And I do believe, as you say, that everything has been months in the planning, not a made-in-a-fortnight decision.



The Plan 9 Interview... in celebration of the 10th anniversary of the release of The Fellowship of the Ring.


Kangi Ska
Half-elven


Aug 3 2012, 5:25pm

Post #21 of 120 (1010 views)
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What would the internet be without conspiracy theories. [In reply to] Can't Post

They keep the world from seeming mundane.

Kangi Ska Resident Trickster & Wicked White Crebain
Life is an adventure, not a contest.

At night you can not tell if crows are black or white.
Photobucket



dormouse
Half-elven


Aug 3 2012, 5:45pm

Post #22 of 120 (942 views)
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You think so, Kangi? [In reply to] Can't Post

They drive me mad sometimes... No one ever seems to believe anything anyone says - but they'll believe a conspiracy, however unlikely.

I find the idea that they have known since pre-production that this was three films but decided to keep it a secret is - well, just let's say far less believable than the alternative - that Peter Jackson is really in his stride now and full of ideas he can't fit into two films. Because that seems to be exactly how he works...

Oh, wait a minute. Do you think the EE documentaries might have been part of the conspiracy? "Let's pretend to do everything at the last minute and to have far too much footage so that when we finally get around to announcing that The Hobbit is to be in three films people will believe it's a change of plan" ....

Think I'll hide in my teapot for a few weeks. Wake me when the next trailer's released, someone... Crazy


Voronwë_the_Faithful
Valinor

Aug 3 2012, 5:55pm

Post #23 of 120 (983 views)
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Not really fair [In reply to] Can't Post

You saying you don't agree without explaining why simply suggests that you have inside information that you are not willing/able to tell. If so, it would be better not to say anything.

In any event, I would appreciate it if you would at least respond to this: I find a professionally impossible to believe that the legal details necessary to extend the project from 2 films to 3 could have been accomplished in the matter of several weeks. Why do you disagree that that is true?

'But very bright were the stars upon the margin of the world, when at times the clouds about the West were drawn aside.'

The Hall of Fire


Captain Salt
Tol Eressea


Aug 3 2012, 7:20pm

Post #24 of 120 (872 views)
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But such a film wound't really have its own narrative [In reply to] Can't Post

That collection of elements isn't a story; it would feel like they sliced off the end of the story and made it its own film (which they may or may not be doing).

And again, much of that wouldn't equal to enough material for even a 2.5 hour film. The muster of the Goblins - 3 mins; Bilbo stealing the Arkenstone - 5 mins; Racial tentions - a total of 20 mins, ETC. What seems like a lot as a chunk of text isn't so much when translated to film. :P

My Top 5 Wish List for "The Hobbit"
5. Legolas will surf down Smaug's neck
4. Bilbo will be revealed to a Robot
3. Naked PJ cameo as Ghan-Buri-Ghan
2. Use of not only 3D, but smell-o-vision, plus the inclusion of axes coming out of the seats and poking the audience when appropriate
1. Not only keep the claim that Thorin & Co. ran amok in Mirkwood "molesting people", but depict said incident in vivid detail!!!!!


Otaku-sempai
Half-elven


Aug 3 2012, 7:24pm

Post #25 of 120 (908 views)
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The White Council/Dol Guldur subplot [In reply to] Can't Post

I think that it is possible that more of the White Council subplot could be moved to the second and third parts. The problem with that theory is that we (meaning, I) have no idea exactly how much of the attack on Dol Guldur was planned for An Unexpected Journey. Here, also, the impact could be minimal.

"Good and ill have not changed since yesteryear; nor are they one thing among Elves and Dwarves and another among Men. It is a man's part to discern them, as much in the Golden Wood as in his own house." - Aragorn

(This post was edited by Otaku-sempai on Aug 3 2012, 7:25pm)

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