AinurOlorin, you are a man (or woman!) after my own heart!

On the topic of Gandalf being, let's say "diminished" by his admission of fear and needing encouragement... I guess I was uncomfortable reading that because I had always thought of Gandalf as such a "high" character that he was above all that--almost beyond reproach. I know real human beings are imperfect, but I love that in fantasy you can have a Gandalf, an Elrond, a Galadriel, or Aragorn to a large extent, etc, who are these nearly perfect characters. They inspire me! Maybe some people are more inspired by someone with human weaknesses who still accomplish great things-- although there are plenty of other characters like that in Tolkien. Also... I doubt you would see Galadriel in the movie expressing any hint of weakness...

Like so:

Power indicator #1: Who is the strongest in a one-on-one fight?
Power indicator #2: Who commanded the largest army?
Power indicator #3: Who commanded the loyalty of the largest number of intelligent beings?
Power indicator #4: What degree of immortality does he or she enjoy?
Power indicator #5: How resistant to temptation are they?

Etc. etc.

Perhaps one could assign a value to these indicators, add them up, and give each character a "power score?"

But is that really a useful exercise, given that you really can't quantify what Tolkien said about the attributes of each of these beings under discussion? No, not really.

Best thing to do is accept that each of them have different kinds of power, and leave it at that.

As Huan defeated Sauron with Luthiens help but Carcharoth defeated Huan does that make Carcharoth greater than Sauron also? If Luthien is more powerful than Sauron by this reasoning than she was also more powrful than Morgoth as she put him to sleep, whereas Sauron she just made swoon giving Huan the chance to attack although he had initally leapt aside in fear when Sauron wolf first came. Sauron's arrogance was his downfall in this instance as he tried to fulfill a prophecy that was not his to fill...it was not the fate of Sauron in wolf form to defeate Huan. This takes nothing away from his defeat however.

Where on earth do you get the information that Gil-Galad was not that great an elven king? That is written nowhere. He was one generation removed from a Valinorean elf so his heritage is very strong and his subjects included all Noldorin elves as he was their king, this includes Galadriel, and great as he was, Elrond was but the herald of Gil-Galad. Both he and Elendil were feared to such an extent that none could stand before them. Elendil is king of what is the most technologically advanced and physically superior race of men in the history of ME. Greater in stature and skill than the heroes of the first age. Sauron killed both of these great warriors, at the cost of his own life. To defeat even one great warrior one would likely have to be a great warrior themselves.

comments about Galadriel and I see nothing there that suggests she does not think that Galadriel is the most powerful being in Middle Earth at that time. Her initial words are reinforced by her enthusiatic comments about Galadriel at Dol Guldur. Does this mean the devices of Saruman whether they are stratagems or machines are going to become the devices of Galadriel????

I think you're jumping the gun here. We know nothing of how it could turn out. Galadriel may completely destroy DG single handed. Or Galadriel may just be at DG giving a helping hand ...

I think you're jumping the gun here. We know nothing of how it could turn out. Galadriel may completely destroy DG single handed. Or Galadriel may just be at DG giving a helping hand ...

In Reply To

Not given anything definitive about Galadriel’s rôle at Dol Guldur? Really? I beg to differ:

Three times Lórien had been assailed from Dol Guldur, but besides the valour of the elven people of that land, the power that dwelt there was too great for any to overcome unless Sauron had come there himself. Through grievous harm was done to the fair woods on the borders, the assaults were driven back; and when the Shadow was passed, Celeborn came forth and led the host of Lórien over Anduin in many boats. They took Dol Guldur, and Galadriel threw down its walls and laid bare its pits, and the forest was cleansed.

I think it next to certain that this is what we shall be shown, if not in the first movie, then surely in the second.

As Arwen Undómiel was the evenstar of her people and Lúthien their morning star, Galadriel was their daystar, fierce and bright as the noontide sun.

Let this put to rest any question of Galadriel’s power to throw down walls of the Enemy and to defend her realm against all incursion save if that Enemy had himself come there to assail her in person. Which he never did. Durin’s Bane was just that; the woodland realm was as shielded as Doriath.

And speaking of Doriath, let us remember the lyric original of which the summary paragraph above is but a dim and distant echo:

Lo! by the bridge a gleam of light,
like stars descended from the night
to burn and tremble here below.
There wide her arms did Lúthien throw,
and called aloud with voice as clear
as still at whiles may mortal hear
long elvish trumpets o’er the hill
echo, when all the world is still.

The dawn peered over mountains wan,
there grey heads silent looked thereon.
The hill trembled; the citadel
crumbled, and all its towers fell;
the rocks yawned and the bridge broke,
and Sirion spumed in sudden smoke.

Like ghosts the owls were flying seen
hooting in the dawn, and bats unclean
went skimming dark through the cold airs
shrieking thinly to find new lairs
in Deadly Nightshade’s branches dread.
The wolves whimpering and yammering fled
like dusky shadows. Out there creep
pale forms and ragged as from sleep,
crawling, and shielding blinded eyes:
the captives in fear and in surprise
from dolour long in clinging night
beyond all hope set free to light.

There is true greatness there, the stuff of which epic poems are writ. And were. That was lines 2790–2815 of one such.

I should very much like to see all that.

Let the daystar of the Eldar like the morning star before her throw down the walls of Sauron’s dark tower, cleanse its pits, and release its prisoners from darkness and bondage into light and freedom.