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The One Ring Forums: Tolkien Topics: Reading Room:
What if: Merry and Pippin not picked for the Fellowship?

Big Daddy Balrog
The Shire

Jun 7 2012, 3:42am

Post #1 of 20 (840 views)
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What if: Merry and Pippin not picked for the Fellowship? Can't Post

As you all probably know, Elrond wanted to send Merry and Pippin back to the Shire and to insert two of his people into the Fellowship. This is a 2-part question:

1. Who would have Elrond picked for the Fellowship? I'm guessing his twin sons.

2. How would have the story of the Fellowship gone otherwise? A huge question, I know!


DanielLB
Immortal


Jun 7 2012, 7:14am

Post #2 of 20 (443 views)
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Where do we begin... [In reply to] Can't Post

Pippin wouldn't have been in Moria to drop the stone down the well. Gandalf may or may not have died.

Merry and Pippin wouldn't have started "an avalanche in the mountains". The Ents may or may not have gone to Isengard.

Pippin wouldn't have looked through the Palantir. Gandalf may or may not have gone on to Gondor.

Merry wouldn't have stabbed the Witch-King. Eowyn may or may not have killed the Witch-King.


sador
Half-elven


Jun 7 2012, 8:17am

Post #3 of 20 (402 views)
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They would have resisted in a very ineffective way [In reply to] Can't Post

And ended up joining Fatty Bolger in the Lockholes. Frown


telain
Rohan

Jun 7 2012, 2:26pm

Post #4 of 20 (372 views)
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the book may have been a bit longer... [In reply to] Can't Post

...detailing M & P's journey back to the Shire. I am now envisioning the confusion of two Hobbits going to Mordor and two Hobbits going to the Shire... And, of course, all the shenanigans M & P would have gotten into!


DanielLB
Immortal


Jun 7 2012, 3:18pm

Post #5 of 20 (371 views)
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I wonder if they would have gone back to Bombadil? / [In reply to] Can't Post

 


DanielLB
Immortal


Jun 7 2012, 7:25pm

Post #6 of 20 (368 views)
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Even more [In reply to] Can't Post

Would the Fellowship still have broken?
Would Aragorn et al. end up in Rohan? etc.

Merry and Pippin really were important components of the quest!


Finwe
Lorien


Jun 7 2012, 8:06pm

Post #7 of 20 (346 views)
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Indeed [In reply to] Can't Post

What would Saruman's Uruk-hai have done at Amon Hen without Merry and Pippin to carry off? You could have been looking at a Disaster of the Gladden Fields part II, with the whole Fellowship killed off and floating down the Anduin.

As three great Jewels they were in form. But not until the End, when FŽanor shall return who perished ere the Sun was made, and sits now in the Halls of Awaiting and comes no more among his kin; not until the Sun passes and the Moon falls, shall it be known of what substance they were made. Like the crystal of diamonds it appeared, and yet was more strong than adamant, so that no violence could mar it or break it within the Kingdom of Arda.


DanielLB
Immortal


Jun 7 2012, 8:16pm

Post #8 of 20 (345 views)
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Yeah, good point [In reply to] Can't Post

But then they may have never ended up at Amon Hen. If Gandalf had survived, he may have been able to hinder Boromir into taking the Ring, and possibly have had more caution as they went South from Lorien?


Finwe
Lorien


Jun 7 2012, 8:36pm

Post #9 of 20 (349 views)
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We could go on all day, couldn't we? [In reply to] Can't Post

There are just too many possibilities to consider. Merry and Pippin were most certainly snowflakes that caused avalanches throughout Middle Earth.

As three great Jewels they were in form. But not until the End, when FŽanor shall return who perished ere the Sun was made, and sits now in the Halls of Awaiting and comes no more among his kin; not until the Sun passes and the Moon falls, shall it be known of what substance they were made. Like the crystal of diamonds it appeared, and yet was more strong than adamant, so that no violence could mar it or break it within the Kingdom of Arda.


Darkstone
Immortal


Jun 7 2012, 8:55pm

Post #10 of 20 (410 views)
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He dies, she dies, everybody dies. [In reply to] Can't Post

1. Glorfindel goes. Who else do you need?

2.

a. Glorfindel kills the Balrog, Gandalf doesnít die. No Gandalf the White.

b. Gandalf keeps Frodo and the ring from Galadriel, Galadriel is never able to pass the test and never passes into the West.

c. Glorfindel kills all the Uruk-hai, Boromir lives.

d. No Three Hunters, no roused Ents, Rohan falls, Theoden and Eomer dead, probably Eowyn as well.

e. The Fellowship goes into Mordor.

f. No Return of the King, Faramir dies, Denethor dies. Gondor overrun.

g. Boromir kills Gollum, then betrays the Ringbearer in the heart of Mordor. In the ensuing massive battle everyone dies (including WiKi and Glorfindel), except Frodo and Sam.

h. Sam has to push Frodo into Mount Doom. Sam goes over the edge with him.

i. Sharkey marches into the Shire at the head of his Uruk-hai.

j. The end.

******************************************
The audacious proposal stirred his heart. And the stirring became a song, and it mingled with the songs of Gil-galad and Celebrian, and with those of Feanor and Fingon. The song-weaving created a larger song, and then another, until suddenly it was as if a long forgotten memory woke and for one breathtaking moment the Music of the Ainur revealed itself in all glory. He opened his lips to sing and share this song. Then he realized that the others would not understand. Not even Mithrandir given his current state of mind. So he smiled and simply said "A diversion.Ē



(This post was edited by Darkstone on Jun 7 2012, 9:05pm)


Finwe
Lorien


Jun 7 2012, 10:05pm

Post #11 of 20 (351 views)
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Sign me up [In reply to] Can't Post

Isn't this how Sauron Defeated ended? Wink

As three great Jewels they were in form. But not until the End, when FŽanor shall return who perished ere the Sun was made, and sits now in the Halls of Awaiting and comes no more among his kin; not until the Sun passes and the Moon falls, shall it be known of what substance they were made. Like the crystal of diamonds it appeared, and yet was more strong than adamant, so that no violence could mar it or break it within the Kingdom of Arda.


Big Daddy Balrog
The Shire

Jun 7 2012, 10:06pm

Post #12 of 20 (341 views)
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Lindir, so he could learn the difference between Men and Hobbits [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
1. Glorfindel goes. Who else do you need?


Elrond specified 9 members of the Fellowship in opposition to the 9 Ringwraiths. So he would have had to pick another Elf besides Glorfindel.

As I said in my OP, I think he would have chose his twin sons, who ended up fighting in the War anyway.


sador
Half-elven


Jun 8 2012, 5:05am

Post #13 of 20 (323 views)
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Of course they wouldn't! [In reply to] Can't Post

Gandalf would sit all night by the West-Gate of Khazad-dum, having no idea whatsoever what the password is.

The Wather would attack, be beaten off somehow (maybe taking Bill and one more of the Fellowship). The others somehow trudge away back North, pursued by Wargs.

Some stragglers reach Rivendell. Saruman launches a fast attack, hoping to secure the Ring before the Nine are back in business.

This is a tricky one - but I guess Elrond can beat Saruman off, albeit with great loss (Glorfindel, anyone?)

In the brief respite, Aragorn and Boromir rush south to Gondor berfore it is overwhelmed. Find Theoden completely demented, Eomer executed and Eowyn the unhappy wife of Wormtongue.

They try to induce civil war, but this takes time. In the meanwhile, Saruman overruns the Pelennor, with no-one to save Faramir. Denethor sees Boromir dead in a Rohan skirmish (or brawl), and quite naturally commits suicide. Sauron marches up North.

The Elves flee across the Sea. Frodo tries to get to Bombadil at least. In the meantime, Bill Ferny murders Lotho and becomes the overlord of the Shire (Pippin, Merry and Fatty being safely locked, as I've written above).

Bombadil besieged and defeated. "Last as he was the first". Darkness comes.

After a long time, Sauron does fall; but hidden from the Wise are the means by which that would happen.


How's that?


Fingolfin33
Registered User

Jun 8 2012, 6:46am

Post #14 of 20 (328 views)
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Easy Answer [In reply to] Can't Post

Things would have worked out well in the end because thats what Illuvatar wanted...Smile


DanielLB
Immortal


Jun 8 2012, 7:00am

Post #15 of 20 (289 views)
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And Tolkien ;-) / [In reply to] Can't Post

 


Fingolfin33
Registered User


Jun 8 2012, 7:15am

Post #16 of 20 (314 views)
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:/ [In reply to] Can't Post

No theme may be played that hath not its uttermost source in me, nor can any alter the music in my despite. For he that attempteth this shall prove but mine instrument in the devising of things more wonderful, which he himself hath not imagined.

Ye have spilled the blood of your kindred unrighteously and have stained the land of Aman. For blood ye shall render blood, and beyond Aman ye shall dwell in Death's shadow. For though Eru appointed to you to die not in Ea, and no sickness may assail you, yet slain ye may be, and slain ye shall be: by weapon and by torment and by grief; and your houseless spirits shall come then to Mandos. There long shall ye abide and yearn for your bodies, and find little pity though all whom ye have slain should entreat for you. And those that endure in Middle-earth and come not to Mandos shall grow weary of the world as with a great burden, and shall wane, and become as shadows of regret before the younger race that cometh after. The Valar have spoken.


CuriousG
Valinor


Jun 11 2012, 5:43pm

Post #17 of 20 (266 views)
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Fate, hobbits, and Eru [In reply to] Can't Post

I think it was Curious who said recently that divine will worked through the four hobbits + Bilbo, and that does resonate. They influenced world events far beyond mortal abilities and their own political and military position. Partly that's due to hobbits being special, underrated people, but I think it's partly because JRR did have a sense that divine will was working through them to fulfill The Big Plan. There's a long tradition of Christian thinking that people exist to act out God's will, so nothing new here, just something that I think Tolkien wove into his stories. Any author gets to play god over their own creation, so he was the Vicar of Eru recruiting the hobbits to fulfill his plot lines, in a way.

The only stumbling block with that thought is: did Iluvatar choose Smeagol to find the ring and keep it underground a few centuries to stay hidden from Sauron? And if so, why did Gollum start out with a murder and then dwindle to such a pathetic, non-hobbit creature instead of being rewarded and ennobled as Frodo and Bilbo were for their roles? Is that the cost of free will that Eru was willing to risk? But if he wasn't a good guy, why would Eru have chosen him at all? Bilbo and Frodo and the rest seem to have been chosen for their moral courage and natural dedication to doing the right thing. Was Gollum just the best option available? Or did he mess up Eru's plan, if Eru had instead meant for the ring to stay with Deagol and have a more Bilbo-like experience where the ring was mostly dormant?


titanium_hobbit
Rohan


Jun 14 2012, 11:23pm

Post #18 of 20 (261 views)
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Gollum: the anti-Sam? [In reply to] Can't Post

So, Deagol puts his hand on the ring, just like Bilbo does. Deagol is throttled by Gollum for it. Frodo becomes Bilbo, in a way.

I wonder if Deagol and Smeagol had the potential to be a Frodo/Sam pairing and take the ring to mount doom? What was Gandalf doing at this point? Where does Smeagol's taking of the Ring fall into the broader Middle Earth time line?

Gollum rejected this 'plan' and took the ring for himself.

Reasons why Frodo is like Deagol:
Hobbit. Frodo's parents were boating people, even though that led to disaster, Deagol and Smeagol out fishing. (Frodo confidently takes the boat and sets out on his own after the breaking of the Fellowship). Has a good friend.

Of course, Gollum was needed to take the ring- he had to, when Frodo claimed the RIng at Mt Doom.

Gollum and Sam do NOT get on, in LOTR, and we keep seeing how they are similar (food providers, guide) and yet so different.

Thoughts? (apologies for disjointed writing style)


Hobbit firster, Book firster.


Have you explored all of TORN's forums?


CuriousG
Valinor


Jun 15 2012, 4:40pm

Post #19 of 20 (210 views)
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We never get to see inside Gollum [In reply to] Can't Post

like we do Sam. We saw the Ring tempt Sam in Mordor by giving him a vision of himself as a sort of god-gardener. It was a test; Sam was at peril, but like Galadriel and others, he won. Did Smeagol have the same kind of test in his mind that Sam did, and he just failed it? What was he offered? (besides raw fishes and rabbitses)

Thanks for bringing up the boating reference--I'd never made that connection before, yet it is a bit eerie, isn't it? What else did Frodo and Deagol have in common that we don't know about? (or that I've never noticed)

Was pre-Ring Smeagol as guileless as Sam, or was he one of those friends you never quite trust?

I suppose an entire thesis could be written about Sam & Gollum: they both competed for Frodo's favor, they were both inferior to Frodo, they were both suspicious by nature, and Frodo needed both of them to complete his mission. Both would be horrified that we're comparing them!


GothmogTheBalrog
Rivendell


Jun 16 2012, 8:50pm

Post #20 of 20 (298 views)
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I don't know... [In reply to] Can't Post

I've always had this idea that Smeagol was always sort of demented. It's because of the fact that he talks creepily even before he had the Ring.

"It was like a great shadow, in the middle of which was a dark form, of man shape maybe, yet greater; and a power and terror seemed to be in it and go before it." ~FotR

 
 

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