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The One Ring Forums: Tolkien Topics: Movie Discussion: The Hobbit:
7th vlog is now on!!!
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Lacrimae Rerum
Grey Havens

Jun 10 2012, 11:07pm

Post #326 of 353 (3157 views)
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How much change is too little change? [In reply to] Can't Post

The answer for me is of course, I have no idea. But neither I suspect do you or anyone else here, what ever they may think.

There is much talk of "necessary" and "unnecessary" changes - which are unhelpful terms for me anyway - but let me also ask the question: necessary for what? One answer might be :in order to deliver films which achieve popular, critical and awards success (e.g to the same level as the LOTR trilogy). I would be surprised of they were not three key metrics by which film makers think about their product.

I am always a little surprised by the confidence with which people talk about what is needed to deliver such successes. Certainly we cannot leap directly from the ingredients to an assumption of a successful dinner. We have seen other films cooked up with the same Tolkien stock which failed to achieve any comparable impact. So the recipe must be important.

As to which elements of the recipe are necessary, we can possibly judge that in relation to ourselves and our own taste. But this is a meal for millions of people, seeking to appeal to the differing tastes of as many as possible. Of course it is fun to speculate but how can we speak with such confidence from the sidelines as to what it was exactly that made the meal work for so many different people across the globe and what it will take this time to do the same? How can we say, with any degree of certainty, that more or less success would have ensued if x or y were instead a or b.

It brings to mind a TV show (called something like "Secrets of the Ancients") where a number of "experts" were called upon to raise an obelisk, build a trebuchet or complete some other feat using tools and techniques which would have been available at the time. The experts had read much on the topic and were genuinely very knowledgeable but despite that, tended to fail fairly resoundingly each episode. They had never had to actually do it, and in trying to, recognised large swathes of unconscious incompetence.

LR


Sinister71
Tol Eressea


Jun 10 2012, 11:20pm

Post #327 of 353 (3158 views)
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I agree to an extent [In reply to] Can't Post

We haven't really seen anything about the romance interest yet anyways I also agree about Tauriel and the romance thing with Kili, but on that I am holding out hope that the issue is one big joke to stir up stuff on the net, and Tauriel's role will be one that will be relatively minor in the grand scheme of things..

But we have seen footage of how they are handling the Barrel sequence


Sinister71
Tol Eressea


Jun 10 2012, 11:45pm

Post #328 of 353 (3157 views)
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ok fair enough [In reply to] Can't Post

but give me a reason why its better to have the dwarfs bobbing along like some ride at Six Flags, which takes the meaning of the chapter off the book out of context ( Bilbo is fearful that he drown some of the dwarfs and worried he made the wrong decision ) i see no reason why sealed barrels in a river (with Rapids) with Bilbo clinging on for dear life maybe falling off trying to steer or coax the barrels in the right direction, trying to get back on top of them. All elements that are true to the book and would make the situation exciting and intriguing without causing ripples in later scenes, like how they arrive in Laketown, or referring to himself as barrel rider to Smaug. A barrel in water floats on its long side not upright its just the way they float, unless they are tied together which we can obviously see in the Vlog they are not. so how can they be sealed in and then pop the tops off? Which if not changes the escape from Thranduil's dungeons as well, It may be some nonsense about how much screen time the actors get. Peter Jackson being a screenwriter as well as director, He is going to try and make "improvements"Crazy anyplace he thinks he can get away with it. which is not always the best thing for adapting a book to film, when the source material is already rich with excitement and detail that only needs minor tweaks.

I am not saying it will be better or worse, that is a matter of opinion Wink What I am saying however is that it is needlessly straying from the source material, when the source material could be just as exciting and/or more suspenseful than anything they have cooked up.


Magpie
Immortal


Jun 11 2012, 12:00am

Post #329 of 353 (3159 views)
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that was a delight to read [In reply to] Can't Post

Just in how you phrased your 'argument' (used in the true sense of critical thought and debate - not in the contentious way).

I agree with what you said, too... so that may have increased my ability to enjoy it. :-)


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Altaira
Superuser / Moderator


Jun 11 2012, 12:49am

Post #330 of 353 (3148 views)
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Reasons [In reply to] Can't Post

Open barrels wouldn't be my first choice either. However, it does allow for more character interaction (BIlbo can still express his reservations to himself in an open barrel). But, perhaps more importantly, it follows one of the number one rules of film-making: to avoid covering actors' faces. Yes, we could still see their faces inside the barrels, but cutting between 13 actor's faces in barrels, multlple times, would be cumbersome. You may not agree with those reasons, but I could see them as plausible reasons a director might make those changes.

(And, here I thought you were going to get through one post without saying 'true to the book', 'needless changes' and bashing PJ Wink)


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Sinister71
Tol Eressea


Jun 11 2012, 1:10am

Post #331 of 353 (3153 views)
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I wasn't bashing [In reply to] Can't Post

I was just stating as screenwriter he obviously has a conflict of interest with keeping things the original way Tolkien wrote them... I wasn't bashingWink I know if I were a screenwriter I would have rather done an original story as apposed to having to use someone elses written story. But if I had to do someone elses story I would at least do it as closely as possible to the authors original context and meaning, not find the possible avenues to rewrite the story.Smile

How can Bilbo be uncertain of the dwarfs fate, or question his choice when he can plainly see they are alright? Covering the actors lets the viewer wonder about the character, and have a vested emotion in their status, fear of the unknown thats part of emotion for a scene like this...it was the not knowing that makes it dramatic and tense

as far as saying "true to the book" or "needless changes" are we saying that that scene is needed to be changed? if it is, I would like to know (seriously) why it was needed to be changed and why does it fit the story better and not just give the actors face time on screen...

I'm being serious and not smart, when people respond all they ever seem to want to say is "thats the way the writers want it" or "PJ thinks its better" as apposed to giving a valid reason why its better to show the dwarfs. Like I said if done right the scene could be dramatic, action packed, dangerous, with the element of the unknown all while having dwarfs inside the barrels with lids on. I'm trying to figure out how its better to have what looks like an amusement park ride as apposed to something unknown and dangerous with the possibility of dwarfs drowning.


(This post was edited by sinister71 on Jun 11 2012, 1:19am)


Otaku-sempai
Half-elven


Jun 11 2012, 4:07pm

Post #332 of 353 (3090 views)
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Well, hutch, there's a good reason for including Galadriel at least... [In reply to] Can't Post

Lady Galadriel is one of the most prominent members of the White Council, which plays a crucial role in Gandalf's side-story. She literally founded the esteemed body when she invited the Istari to join the Councils of the Wise.

I also don't see the addition of other female characters to be catering to the women and girls in the audience. Film is not prose; telling a story in film has different requirements. Characters must be shown interacting with their environments, including the people (male and female) that populate those environments. Tauriel is an example of that, even if she also seems to replace the (male) chief guard from the book. Granted her role is an expanded one, giving her a part in the capture of the Dwarves and apparently in the Battle of the Five Armies.

"Good and ill have not changed since yesteryear; nor are they one thing among Elves and Dwarves and another among Men. It is a man's part to discern them, as much in the Golden Wood as in his own house." - Aragorn


Lacrimae Rerum
Grey Havens

Jun 11 2012, 10:16pm

Post #333 of 353 (3096 views)
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Well I can give any number of reasons [In reply to] Can't Post

But the whole point of my post is that there is no real reason to assume that any reason I might give is the actual reason or reasons.

LR


Sinister71
Tol Eressea


Jun 11 2012, 11:43pm

Post #334 of 353 (3110 views)
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I was asking if anyone could think of a better reason [In reply to] Can't Post

why it should be changed, example... the text of the book is not dramatic enough, Tolkien left this area of the book too grey and open to interpretation, It can't be made the way it was written and people will get up and walk out of the film if they make it that way... those would be actual reasons not assumptions of why PJ changed the barrel scene. because thats the way PJ wants it to me is not a valid reason its just like me saying IMO it is the screenwriters ego, thinking he can do it better than the author did, by drastically altering that scene and not worrying about what it changes later in the story.


Lacrimae Rerum
Grey Havens

Jun 12 2012, 12:10am

Post #335 of 353 (3102 views)
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Well i think they are all assumptions [In reply to] Can't Post

Since we have no idea. But that aside my guess for the motivation to include the elements we have seen would be.....in order to make a more successful film.
And before someone says "i don't see how...." that was the topic of my longer post above.

LR


Sinister71
Tol Eressea


Jun 12 2012, 12:35am

Post #336 of 353 (3117 views)
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well we can definitely agree to disagree on that one [In reply to] Can't Post

more successful I highly doubt that. Different from the book yeah I'll agree with that.... I think alot of fans of the book who haven't been following the progression like the people who frequent these sites have been... are going to see the Six Flags amusement park ride on the screen and go WTF??? It has nothing in common with the book and frankly in alot of peoples minds (not just mine or people here or other forums) it doesn't come close to the cinematic action and suspense that could have been portrayed on film... My personal opinion though, I expected to see the Hobbit on screen done with some intergrity, not some WB influenced action lets make a theme park ride out of it sort of adventure


Sinister71
Tol Eressea


Jun 12 2012, 12:57am

Post #337 of 353 (3089 views)
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Hey maybe Bilbo [In reply to] Can't Post

can get his souvenir photo at the kiosk at the docks of Laketown only 5 gold pieces or even better can even get a T-shirt from the souvenir stand in Laketown for 20 that says, "I survived the Barrel ride to Laketown and heres the T-shirt to prove it"Crazy But I guess the good thing is he can see that all the dwarfs are ok, and not worry about them being drown and when they get to there they should be perfectly safe as long as they kept their hands and feet inside the barrel that is Wink


Tim
Tol Eressea


Jun 12 2012, 2:55pm

Post #338 of 353 (3124 views)
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Well that defies logic [In reply to] Can't Post

Logic dictates that WB and PJ want the audience to enjoy the film so much that they'll tell their friends about it and more tickets will be sold. Thus more people enjoy the movie, more money is made by the movie-makers, thus the movie is more successful. And your assessment (going to see the Six Flags amusement park ride on the screen and go WTF) is countered by the success of PJ's adaptation of LOTR. Modern audiences are familiar with the concept that adaptations are not the same as the books that they derive from.

The fine print - I don't like everything PJ did with LOTR, nor do I watch everything made by PJ nor do I have a shrine burning incense dedicated to PJ. Wink

King Arthur: You know much that is hidden oh Tim.

Tim: Quite.


One Ringer
Tol Eressea


Jun 12 2012, 2:57pm

Post #339 of 353 (3134 views)
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Really loved this one, [In reply to] Can't Post

It reminded me of the wit and charm of the Kong PD's. Just the overall flow and what they were showing was awesome.

Oh yeah, and I can scratch off yet another reason why Kiran is so awesome! Cool

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"You do not let your eyes see nor your ears hear, and that which is outside your daily life is not of account to you. Ah, it is the fault of our science that it wants to explain all; and if it explain not, then it says there is nothing to explain."


Sinister71
Tol Eressea


Jun 12 2012, 7:41pm

Post #340 of 353 (3058 views)
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I guess I don't see showing the dwarfs riding in open barrels [In reply to] Can't Post

as better in any way shape or form, it is just different and nothing like the text of the book. Its something that is no more dramatic than the scene could have been staying closer to the description Tolkien gave us with the dwarfs inside the barrels, actually quite the opposite because we know the dwarfs fate through the whole barrel ride, theres no mystery or surprise in finding out they did not drown or killed and we can see that they are alright and Bilbo isn't actually riding ON the barrel, he is in one himself...So how can he claim he is the "barrel rider", or "drowns his friends and brings them back to life" to Smaug? I just don't buy the whole PJ knows what he is doing argument all the time, ex...the army of the dead always reminds me of the scrubbing bubbles from the toilet bowl commercial at Pellinor Fields in the way they end the fight in like 5 minutes and its over with. Sure some of the changes were entertaining in LOTR I admit that did I like them better than the books probably not but they were entertaining. I just see this change as unnecessary for a cheap thrill when the probably never tried to explore the avenue of the way the scene originally was.

I don't have one either, but I bet there has got to be some people out there with a burning shrine to PJCrazy Some good and some badSmile


hutch
Rohan


Jun 12 2012, 10:06pm

Post #341 of 353 (3172 views)
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I certainly agree with Galadriel [In reply to] Can't Post

but i'm not budging on my opinion about adding romance, etc. I know how studios work ("We need the women demographic! Get a female who kicks butt into the script. Hurry! Hurry!").

But at the very least I will wait to see the end results. I may enjoy it. I just hate when I can see studio decisions invading art. Esp. obvious ones. Takes me out of the films.

And to be specific I have no qualms about the actress herself. Never seen her before.

Davy Jones could've been Bilbo...I mean he was a Brit with a sense for adventure, singing & dancing. And think of the costs it would've save with forced perspective: he was ACTUALLY 5'3. He also hung out with a grumpy tall dude in a hat (Mike Nesmith.) While we're at it let's just have Micky Dolenz and Peter Tork as Merry & Pippin.


AinurOlorin
Half-elven


Jun 13 2012, 1:06am

Post #342 of 353 (3126 views)
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I understand you, but if open barrels are the worst of the changes [In reply to] Can't Post

we should consider ourselves very lucky and walk away singing a happy tune, and whistling in the spaces between the lyrics. I hope I am wrong in what I am about to say, but something tells me that somewhere between entombed wraiths and never before encountered characters, we will likely have more bothersome deviations to discuss ere the end.

In Reply To
as better in any way shape or form, it is just different and nothing like the text of the book. Its something that is no more dramatic than the scene could have been staying closer to the description Tolkien gave us with the dwarfs inside the barrels, actually quite the opposite because we know the dwarfs fate through the whole barrel ride, theres no mystery or surprise in finding out they did not drown or killed and we can see that they are alright and Bilbo isn't actually riding ON the barrel, he is in one himself...So how can he claim he is the "barrel rider", or "drowns his friends and brings them back to life" to Smaug? I just don't buy the whole PJ knows what he is doing argument all the time, ex...the army of the dead always reminds me of the scrubbing bubbles from the toilet bowl commercial at Pellinor Fields in the way they end the fight in like 5 minutes and its over with. Sure some of the changes were entertaining in LOTR I admit that did I like them better than the books probably not but they were entertaining. I just see this change as unnecessary for a cheap thrill when the probably never tried to explore the avenue of the way the scene originally was.

I don't have one either, but I bet there has got to be some people out there with a burning shrine to PJCrazy Some good and some badSmile


"Hear me, hounds of Sauron, Gandalf is here! Fly if you value your foul skins, I will shrivel you from tail to snout if you step within this circle!"

"Do not be to eager to deal out death in judgement. Even the very wise cannot see all ends."


droidsocket
Rivendell

Jun 13 2012, 1:26am

Post #343 of 353 (3036 views)
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You may not like it but... [In reply to] Can't Post

It works! My wife is happy to sit through a movie she would normally not disire to watch if there is some form of romance!

Studios know that. So if they add a romance wether its forced or not it's the difference between alienating a curtain demographic or adding something (most likely with a short amount screen time) that reaches a wider audience.


hutch
Rohan


Jun 13 2012, 1:41am

Post #344 of 353 (3050 views)
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i'm pretty sure [In reply to] Can't Post

blacks, asians, latins, gays, androids, aliens, and rodeo clowns will all see TH even though their demographics won't be represented at all.

This issue just bothers me because it gives the studios so much latitude to force artists to cater the same way every time and it doesn't allow the audience to grow or change.
They don't expand.
If they don't see their demographic they just tune out instead of investigating in stories that may not necessarily involve them. They don't get exposed to different shades of grey or viewpoints.

Davy Jones could've been Bilbo...I mean he was a Brit with a sense for adventure, singing & dancing. And think of the costs it would've save with forced perspective: he was ACTUALLY 5'3. He also hung out with a grumpy tall dude in a hat (Mike Nesmith.) While we're at it let's just have Micky Dolenz and Peter Tork as Merry & Pippin.


(This post was edited by hutch on Jun 13 2012, 1:43am)


Sinister71
Tol Eressea


Jun 13 2012, 1:48am

Post #345 of 353 (3265 views)
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I hate to say this [In reply to] Can't Post

but if they are coming to the Hobbit because of romance maybe they need to go find the latest Jennifer Aniston movie or some other kind of chick flick to watch... Hate to say it but its true... But sadly I'm sure they will add it to appease the 43% of movie goers who are women Angelic and NO thats not a real statistic (but since 2010 women have bought more movie tickets than men in the 18 to 24 age demographic as well as the 50 to 59 and 60 plus age brackets) came from the MPAA website

I just think its sad to add romance in a film that there was none what so ever involved in to begin with unless you count Thorin's love for his gold as a romance I wouldn't mind that romanceWink


triptrap
Lorien

Jun 13 2012, 7:56am

Post #346 of 353 (3106 views)
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I hate to say this sinister... [In reply to] Can't Post

but all you ever seem to do is make up assumptions and jump to conclusions that are in no reliable way based and therefore start ravaging.
Is it a safe bet that there will be romance in the Hobbit? I'm sorry if i have missed the news
You always seem to know so much about these two movies, i wonder where you get all that inside knowledge from.
The dwarves may be sealed at first so that Bilbo is able to have his character developing moment until the barrels crash against a rock and open up, or they push out the tops themselves or whatever... who knows
i also can't find where you took the expectations from, that the whole damn movie will be all about sauron and the ring, which you claimed some threads earlier

Excuse me but from now on i will ignore your posts and stop reading and replying to them because they've been costing me quite a nerve. Don't get me wrong, it's not your opinions that bother me, but your unbased ways of argumentation and that you subtly often put people as minors or less of a fan cause they have different opinions.(easy example: in the discussion about the barrels you recognize opinions differing from your own and then claim that people who just accept changes are PJ worshippers with shrines which pretty much implies that you think they are unable of critical thinking and reflexion, whih to me seems very harsh and rude)


Sinister71
Tol Eressea


Jun 13 2012, 2:37pm

Post #347 of 353 (3015 views)
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fine with me [In reply to] Can't Post

really doesn't bother me if you ignore me Shocked, just like ignoring the facts that have already been placed in front of us from the Vlogs or the magazine article mentioning romance (must have missed that one, here ya go ( http://newboards.theonering.net/forum/gforum/perl/gforum.cgi?post=455836;sb=post_time;so=DESC;forum_view=forum_view_collapsed;;page=unread#unread )

I never once called anyone PJ worshipers, Loyalists maybe but thats your right to like the movies and all the changes. I simply think they are out of hand just from what we have seen, nothing more the stuff on the Vlogs, the magazine articles, news from this and other Tolkien/ Hobbit websites and PJ's talent for choosing spectacle over sustenance every time he makes a change. Some people only want to read whats placed in front of them in Black and white instead of reading what is obvious between the lines in the shades of grey... and the ring well PJ needs to show everyone what it was in his trilogy. I still believe he will make the ring more dominant in the Hobbit films than it ever needs to be, they gotta have that tie in to his trilogy instead of telling the tale the way it was originally done... esp when there is money to be madeCrazy

and about change well that was in reference to changes that effect or alter other events in the story not just the scenes they are in.., not simple understandable changes, which would be something like simply speeding up the pace of the river with maybe a section of rapids but still keeping the dwarfs in the barrels and all of Bilbos character arc intact... No its the drastic change of having to have dwarf interaction, Bilbo knows what is going on with the dwarfs, the arrive at Laketown apparently differently since they are not inside the barrels... its a ripple effect one little change that is not so important causes changes in other parts of the story.

the shrines comment was in reply to Tim who actually made the first comment about shrines and its called s-a-r-c-a-s-m... SheeshCrazy I guess some people have never heard of that Wink


(This post was edited by sinister71 on Jun 13 2012, 2:44pm)


Eowyn of Penns Woods
Valinor


Jun 13 2012, 6:09pm

Post #348 of 353 (3021 views)
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*swats cobwebs, blows away dust*... [In reply to] Can't Post

*pulls old footer out of storage, and silently walks away* ;)

**********************************


NABOUF
Not a TORns*b!
Certified Curmudgeon
Knitting Knerd
NARF: NWtS Chapter Member since June 17,2011


Lusitano
Tol Eressea


Jun 14 2012, 1:40pm

Post #349 of 353 (2963 views)
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reply to sinister71 [In reply to] Can't Post

Haha Sinister71, i knew this sort of reaction would happen again...youre destined to get these responses as long as you keep the your palantir and the machine gun with your finger always on the trigger Wink


Sinister71
Tol Eressea


Jun 15 2012, 3:04am

Post #350 of 353 (2951 views)
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yeah i'm sure [In reply to] Can't Post

people don't like hearing negative things even when they could be true

PJ's version of the hobbit will be perfect with all rainbows and sunshine throughout the film I'm sure... just perfectionCrazy


(This post was edited by sinister71 on Jun 15 2012, 3:07am)

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