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The One Ring Forums: Tolkien Topics: Movie Discussion: The Hobbit:
Is PJ's take on Tolkien the film equivelent of a Happy Meal?
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pettytyrant101
Lorien

Jun 6 2012, 5:00pm

Post #1 of 226 (3603 views)
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Is PJ's take on Tolkien the film equivelent of a Happy Meal? Can't Post

I despair at the content of the TH film as so far reported. PJ's LotR's was an abomination to far as was but this is something else entirely. Very loosely based on TH would be a generous description it seems.
So are Pj's films like a Happy Meal- looks good, seems to taste good, but immediately afterwards you realise you are not satisified at all and it had no real ingredients.
Rapids in the barrel scene- why? The purpose of sending the barrels back empty is to collect them- what use would sending empty wooden barrels through rapids be to anyone who wasn't running a matchstick franchise?
The troll scene descending into yet another boring (almost certainly over long) fight sequence?
And don't even get me started on a poop-smeared Radagast and his giant bunny sled.
What is it with PJ that he cannot help himself from putting really predictable and dull melodrama into every scene? On another forum we predicted many of his changes months ahead of announcements just by guessing what would be the dullest most predictable thing he would do. And lo and behold he has it seems done most of them.
Some changes- bringing back the Nazgul complete with made up backstory and tomb is so far out the sphere of Tolkien it was at least unpredicatable but only in a very bad way. Seems Pj and the Covens thinking is why bother with a mans entire life work when you can chuck it all out and scribble your own idea on the back of a beer mat whilst on a lunch break? (At least I assume from the quality of the idea thats how he came up with it).
Why include the WC/Necromancer story at all when the the book containing the most detailed descriptions of those events and time period PJ des not have the rights to use? The book manages without those elements so could the film, especially if because of legal reasons they have to abandon the author completely and invent something different to do so.
They provided amply in LOtR's that they not only cannot write in Tolkiens style but don't have any love for his dialogue in the first place- or why else remove almost all of it? So the thought of a huge chunk of film being entirely invented by Pj and the Coven and written by them should fill any Tolkien fan with horror.


Danielos
Rohan

Jun 6 2012, 5:20pm

Post #2 of 226 (2045 views)
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You still have the book. [In reply to] Can't Post

You still have the book.

* Give the man some creative freedom! How interesting would it be for a director to adapt a book and being prohibited by fanatical purists for adding any ideas of their own?

* These movies are incredibly expensive! They must entertain not just you but even mainstream cineasts who have never read the book!

* You should be grateful that they are being made at all! You know how much trouble and effort that has went into getting this book up on the big screen?


(This post was edited by Altaira on Jun 6 2012, 7:52pm)


Lacrimae Rerum
Grey Havens

Jun 6 2012, 5:21pm

Post #3 of 226 (1953 views)
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I predict [In reply to] Can't Post

That you aren't going to like these films very much. It's ok. I don't really like Jennifer Anniston films.

LR


QuackingTroll
Valinor


Jun 6 2012, 5:23pm

Post #4 of 226 (1968 views)
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There are rapids in the book... [In reply to] Can't Post

As for the troll scene, what would you have them do, all come out one-by-one and get captured? That would cinematically believable.

"...For if joyful is the fountain that rises in the sun, its springs are in the wells of sorrow unfathomed at the foundations of the Earth"


sador
Half-elven


Jun 6 2012, 5:26pm

Post #5 of 226 (1887 views)
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At least it wouldn't be over-long. // [In reply to] Can't Post

 


Carne
Tol Eressea

Jun 6 2012, 5:26pm

Post #6 of 226 (2006 views)
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It's common with people who complain about the movies [In reply to] Can't Post

They think you can just copy/paste the book, but it doesn't work like that.

A montage of the trolls looking for the dwarves? That's boring.

The dwarves slowly drifting down a river after escaping from the elves? Anti-climatic. Though as you said, there are rapids in the book.

It's true, you can't just go "Oh, we must only listen to the book fans, because they're the only ones who are going to watch this!".


(This post was edited by Carne on Jun 6 2012, 5:27pm)


Snaga
Lorien


Jun 6 2012, 5:27pm

Post #7 of 226 (1912 views)
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As long as it's a Happy Meal with toy-included [In reply to] Can't Post

Wink How many of us here don't still have some of their LOTR Happy Meal toys?

I have a Bilbo from the initial release of FOTR that (the last time I checked about year or two ago) would still squeak out "The ring must go to Frodo."


diedye
Grey Havens


Jun 6 2012, 5:29pm

Post #8 of 226 (1917 views)
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*raises hand*... [In reply to] Can't Post

... but I'm still sad I missed out on the Boromir one. Frown



Blessed are the cracked,
For they are the ones who let in the light!




Darkstone
Immortal


Jun 6 2012, 5:31pm

Post #9 of 226 (1898 views)
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Yup. [In reply to] Can't Post

"All he knew was that the river seemed to go on and on and on for ever, and he was hungry, and had a nasty cold in the nose, and did not like the way the Mountain seemed to frown at him and threaten him as it drew ever nearer. After a while, however, the river took a more southerly course and the Mountain receded again, and at last, late in the day the shores grew rocky, the river gathered all its wandering waters together into a deep and rapid flood, and they swept along at great speed."
-Chapter 10, A Warm Welcome

******************************************
The audacious proposal stirred his heart. And the stirring became a song, and it mingled with the songs of Gil-galad and Celebrian, and with those of Feanor and Fingon. The song-weaving created a larger song, and then another, until suddenly it was as if a long forgotten memory woke and for one breathtaking moment the Music of the Ainur revealed itself in all glory. He opened his lips to sing and share this song. Then he realized that the others would not understand. Not even Mithrandir given his current state of mind. So he smiled and simply said "A diversion.



Darkstone
Immortal


Jun 6 2012, 5:33pm

Post #10 of 226 (1904 views)
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As opposed to cabbages and potatoes? [In reply to] Can't Post

Though I'd rather have Elves and Dragons myself.

******************************************
The audacious proposal stirred his heart. And the stirring became a song, and it mingled with the songs of Gil-galad and Celebrian, and with those of Feanor and Fingon. The song-weaving created a larger song, and then another, until suddenly it was as if a long forgotten memory woke and for one breathtaking moment the Music of the Ainur revealed itself in all glory. He opened his lips to sing and share this song. Then he realized that the others would not understand. Not even Mithrandir given his current state of mind. So he smiled and simply said "A diversion.



(This post was edited by Darkstone on Jun 6 2012, 5:34pm)


QuackingTroll
Valinor


Jun 6 2012, 5:57pm

Post #11 of 226 (1977 views)
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Being grateful that they are being made... [In reply to] Can't Post

I'm not disagreeing with you, but I personally think that no adaptation is better than a bad one.

Your second point - The thought that PJ needs to deviate from book so that it's appealing for more than a Tolkien-interested audience - is not only true, but very interesting. A film made for Tolkien purists, you would assume, would make a better movie. But less people are likely to find it appealing. Look at Thorin - an older Thorin is truer to the book and makes more sense in terms of the story and would probably generally be more interesting as a character. But a younger, good-looking Thorin attracts a much larger audience. And for a film of this scale and budget, that's very important. I guess that's why some of the changes are not good ones.

"...For if joyful is the fountain that rises in the sun, its springs are in the wells of sorrow unfathomed at the foundations of the Earth"

(This post was edited by QuackingTroll on Jun 6 2012, 5:58pm)


pettytyrant101
Lorien

Jun 6 2012, 6:03pm

Post #12 of 226 (1940 views)
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reply to all so far (least those Id read to when I started!) [In reply to] Can't Post

I'd heard good things about this place. And you lot certainly dont disappoint.
Where to begin?
Daneilos/Carne- you are the first but probably not the last sadly to accuse me of wanting every bit and every word of the book on the screen. Despite me saying no such thing. Assumption is of course best friends with ignorance so well done there.

Expense does not mean that the only solution is to completely alter the narrative, introduce your own characters and your own entire new section to the book. Amazingly other books have been successfully and commercialy vialbly adapted without resorting to such lengths. Changes for all sort of reasons, dramatic, timing, necessity, are all to be expected in any adaptation from book to film, but there is a line you cross when what you are writing is so far from the source (or in PJ's case does not even exist in the source) it can no longer be called adaptation and is into the realms of completely made up. If you are completly making it up it is no longer an adaptation-its just using the name of a successful book to sell tickets.

Quacking Troll- no, one by one would obviously take to long and I supect you hoped to mock me with the suggestion, in small groups would be better- it speeds the process up whilst keeping the humorous undercurrent of the set up from the book. The dwarves being captured and threatened with being eaten before Gandalfs timely arrival is drama enough in any competent screenplay. To resort to a fight is very dull and unimagintive and not at all in the spirit of the book scene they are supposed to be adapting. In all honesty who couldnt have guessed long ago that Pj would turn that scene into a big fight? Its in his nature he cant resist- even in a simple scene in TT when Frodo and Sam see the Oliphaunt for the first time- Tolkien has one so Pj has to have two.

Darkstone there is huge difference between rapids and rapid water- rapid water is just what Tolkien describes, water moving rapidly. Rapids are water breaking over rocks usually submerged juts below the surface. Given the way people are being thrown about in the recent vid blog Pj is going for rapids, not rapid water.


(This post was edited by pettytyrant101 on Jun 6 2012, 6:05pm)


Darkstone
Immortal


Jun 6 2012, 6:09pm

Post #13 of 226 (1877 views)
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Also... [In reply to] Can't Post

"'Over rapid, over sand,
South away! And south away!'"
-Chapter 9, Barrels Out of Bond

******************************************
The audacious proposal stirred his heart. And the stirring became a song, and it mingled with the songs of Gil-galad and Celebrian, and with those of Feanor and Fingon. The song-weaving created a larger song, and then another, until suddenly it was as if a long forgotten memory woke and for one breathtaking moment the Music of the Ainur revealed itself in all glory. He opened his lips to sing and share this song. Then he realized that the others would not understand. Not even Mithrandir given his current state of mind. So he smiled and simply said "A diversion.



DanielLB
Immortal


Jun 6 2012, 6:12pm

Post #14 of 226 (1885 views)
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Just a thought [In reply to] Can't Post

They said they were filming the sluice gates not rapids.


sador
Half-elven


Jun 6 2012, 6:20pm

Post #15 of 226 (1922 views)
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But that's far worse! [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
in small groups would be better- it speeds the process up whilst keeping the humorous undercurrent of the set up from the book


Each time three dwarves blithely amble along towards the fire, never suspecting that the fact their comrades are not around doesn't bode well? And each time, three sacks go over their heads?
At least Tolkien had the trolls out of the fire, and the dwarves (apparantly) coming alone. Nobody except for Balin behaves like a complete dunce, and Bofur and Bombur at least fight like mad (which to me indicates the others also fought, but caused no damage - however, this is but a hunch).

No, if you can't have them coming one-by-one, at least let them keep some dignity by making a fight of it. Otherwise Bilbo would decamp as early as Rivendell, and rightly so.


pettytyrant101
Lorien

Jun 6 2012, 6:35pm

Post #16 of 226 (1897 views)
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Its spectacularly dull without a proper story. [In reply to] Can't Post

If they have no rapids no one will be happier than me.
If Pj were to leave the fight out the troll scene it would be the better for it, allowing the humrous yet threatening troll talk be the focus and more importantly Bilbo. The scene is not about the dwarves directly, nor about a big fight, it is about Bilbo trying to prove himself. Pj will not insert a brief skirmish, he turns a troll sticking a foot in a door in Moria into a twenty minute fight sequence, he lacks it seems the instinct for when the thrust of the narrative is being overwhelmed by the spectacle. And by the time we have watched 13 dwarves all show off their unique fighting style the focus of the scene, Bilbo and his attempt to live up to his burglar name, will be stomped into dust. Same as Pj stomped the narrative strands and threads of RotK into the ground with ever increasing levels of ridiculous spectacle.


Carne
Tol Eressea

Jun 6 2012, 6:43pm

Post #17 of 226 (1826 views)
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The trolls talking is in. [In reply to] Can't Post

As mentioned by those who watched the Cinema Con footage, Bilbo is picked up and the trolls start to argue (then the dwarves attack).


(This post was edited by Carne on Jun 6 2012, 6:43pm)


Darkstone
Immortal


Jun 6 2012, 6:49pm

Post #18 of 226 (1822 views)
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Bilbo Baggins Goes Forth [In reply to] Can't Post

Thorin: I have formulated a brilliant new tactical plan to ensure final victory in the field!

Bombur: Now, would this brilliant plan involve one of us getting up and walking slowly towards the red campfire?

Thorin: How can you possibly know that Bombur? It's classified information!

Bombur: It's the same plan that we used last time, and the eleven times before that.

Thorin: E-E-Exactly! And that is what so brilliant about it! We will catch the watchful Trolls totally off guard! Doing precisely what we have done twelve times before is exactly the last thing they'll expect us to do this time! There is however one small problem.

Bombur: That everyone always ends up getting stuffed in a bag during the first sixty seconds.

******************************************
The audacious proposal stirred his heart. And the stirring became a song, and it mingled with the songs of Gil-galad and Celebrian, and with those of Feanor and Fingon. The song-weaving created a larger song, and then another, until suddenly it was as if a long forgotten memory woke and for one breathtaking moment the Music of the Ainur revealed itself in all glory. He opened his lips to sing and share this song. Then he realized that the others would not understand. Not even Mithrandir given his current state of mind. So he smiled and simply said "A diversion.



(This post was edited by Darkstone on Jun 6 2012, 6:50pm)


pettytyrant101
Lorien

Jun 6 2012, 6:51pm

Post #19 of 226 (1838 views)
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Eye on the ball PJ [In reply to] Can't Post

Is that meant to be better Carne? The focus will still shift to a fight- and as its the first time we will see the dwarves fighting Pj will want to show off their different styles, especially so all the thick people he thinks are in his audience- who in reality would have to be too stupid to be able to purchase a cinema ticket-can associate the style with the character. And once again we will be waving goodbye to any sort of effective focus narritvely as we go of on another exciting (and most likely over-long) jaunt into reimaginings of things that PJ loved in his boyhood-which is always pure spectacle.


(This post was edited by pettytyrant101 on Jun 6 2012, 6:54pm)


pettytyrant101
Lorien

Jun 6 2012, 6:53pm

Post #20 of 226 (1814 views)
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With thanks to Blackadder Goes Forth [In reply to] Can't Post

Darkstone, I agree one by one would not wok in a film if for no other reason than time- but PJ's solution let just have a big fight is the same solution he always turns to.


Lacrimae Rerum
Grey Havens

Jun 6 2012, 6:54pm

Post #21 of 226 (1814 views)
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I still don't think you are going to like them [In reply to] Can't Post

LR


pettytyrant101
Lorien

Jun 6 2012, 6:56pm

Post #22 of 226 (1793 views)
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You're probably right [In reply to] Can't Post

You might be right there LR (hope you don't mind the abbreviation) but I love Tolkien and TH and so I should be eagerly anticipation a film adaptation of TH but I am far more dreading what abominations PJ will have perpetrated upon Tolkien this time round.


QuackingTroll
Valinor


Jun 6 2012, 7:01pm

Post #23 of 226 (1778 views)
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IMO the only reason there isn't a big fight here in the book [In reply to] Can't Post

(although there is a brief one) is because fights are dull to write about and dull to read. Viewing one, however is a completely different experience. It's the same reason books have less explosions than films, when you can't see them they're not interesting.

"...For if joyful is the fountain that rises in the sun, its springs are in the wells of sorrow unfathomed at the foundations of the Earth"


sador
Half-elven


Jun 6 2012, 7:01pm

Post #24 of 226 (1792 views)
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It all bolis down to one thing: [In reply to] Can't Post

You don't like Jackson as a filmmaker, and didn't enjoy his adaption of The Lord of the Rings. So you simply don't trust him. Had the dwarves crept up the hill to the trolls three by three, you would also dislike his spoiling of the story.

That's fair enough - it's your prerogative. Some people who know Tolkien far better than I do love the films, and others do not. While I think unnescessrily exaggerating is counterproductive (twenty minutes of the troll in Moria? Really! And that when you could complain with far more justification about Amon Hen) - "he lacks it seems the instinct for when the thrust of the narrative is being overwhelmed by the spectacle" is a fair criticism, and worth a separate discussion.

But if I may ask one question, which puzzles me about people of the same opinion: why would you go to watch the film at all? You have seen three films already, and I suppose you were very disppointed. Why pay more money, waste more time, make Peter Jackson seem even bigger than he is? If you don't like Jackson, avoid his adaptions. "And by the time we have watched" - why? I really do not understand.
If you are a Tolkien-scholar who cannot afford to ignore this part of the Tolkien cultural phenomenon, I understand; even if you are a blogger whose blog depends on ranting against misrepresentations of Tolkien, once again I have no question. But why would any ordinary fan who dislikes Jackson go and see these movies?
"If they have no rapids no one will be happier than me" - why do you care about this?

If these questions do not apply to you - I apologise; but there are others who share your opinions and are neither scholars not bloggers (and not even trolls!). So I might as well ask them.


Welsh hero
Gondor


Jun 6 2012, 7:01pm

Post #25 of 226 (1772 views)
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I'd like to watch the film before passing this sort of judgement// [In reply to] Can't Post

 

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