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QTNA for today..."You have the gift of foresight"...

weaver
Half-elven

Jun 4 2012, 4:17am

Post #1 of 4 (900 views)
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QTNA for today..."You have the gift of foresight"... Can't Post

 Hello again, LOTR Movie Board!

I'm stopping in again with another Question That Needs Answering (QTNA) -- this is s reprisal of a series hosted by that wondrous poster of olde, hobbitlove, who was known for wondering about many things!

Today's QTNA consists of several questions, actually, and they all have to do with Elrond and his gift of foresight...

1. In film-verse only, how do you explain Elrond's gift of foresight? Galadriel has a mirror she can look into -- but Elrond doesn't have any kind of prop. Do the films give us enough to go on to explain how and why Elrond can see things that haven't happened yet?

2. Why did they bother to include Elrond's foresight in the films at all? What purpose does it serve?

3. It seems to me that Elrond needs some glasses for that foresight of his -- after all, he told Arwen that Aragorn would not come back, and he did. Was he using his gift of foresight when he said that?

4. Was Arwen's vision of her son also a gift of foresight? Does that mean you can inherit it? And if she did, why doesn't she see anything else, like something about Aragorn's future or her own?

5. Any other musings along these lines? I foresee a good discussion or at least I hope so! Thanks in advance to all who choose to lurk or reply!

**Do you have a 'question that needs answering?" PM me with your questions, and I'll be glad to post them in a future QTNA...which will appear again precisely when it means to or as RL permits!**


Weaver




DanielLB
Immortal


Jun 4 2012, 6:20am

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The gift of foresight [In reply to] Can't Post

What the film's failed to get across was that Elrond's foresight was actually weather forecasting, which I'm told, was explained in a lengthy scene between Elrond and Figwit. PJ decided to cut the scene because he felt it added too much to the film.

Why Figwit? Because he was actually Elrond's foreseight device:

Forcasting
Ice (storms and other)
Great
Weather
Inside
Tent

This thread answers why Elrond's forecasting was so important:

http://newboards.theonering.net/...;;page=unread#unread

Unfortunately, in another deleted scene, the reason why Elrond got Aragorn's future so wrong was because the barometer attached to Figwit had broken, meaning his forecast was all wrong! Instead of forecasting a day with sunny intervals, a maximum temperature of 19oC and a chance of rain in the evening, he predicted Aragorn's death.

Elrond failed to fix the barometer by the time he sent Arwen and Figwit to the Grey Havens, giving all the elves in the party hallucinations from the leaking mercury.


Finwe
Lorien


Jun 4 2012, 2:41pm

Post #3 of 4 (434 views)
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Not sure if we're supposed to answer these seriously or not, but here goes... [In reply to] Can't Post

1. In film-verse only, how do you explain Elrond's gift of foresight? Galadriel has a mirror she can look into -- but Elrond doesn't have any kind of prop. Do the films give us enough to go on to explain how and why Elrond can see things that haven't happened yet?

If I had to come up with an explanation, I would chalk it up to his ancestry. He and Galadriel aren't just Elves, they're in the upper 1% of Elves. #OccupyRivendell! PJ and the gang probably thought foresight was an easy way to show this without a lot of dissertation. I was a movie-firster and I didn't question the validity of Elrond's power, as it was made pretty clear was an important Elf, so it worked for me.

2. Why did they bother to include Elrond's foresight in the films at all? What purpose does it serve? In addition to showing how important of an Elf he was, it also helped to hammer home the point that Elves are clearly operate on a higher payscale than Men and come from a more ancient and mystical time in Middle Earth's history.

3. It seems to me that Elrond needs some glasses for that foresight of his -- after all, he told Arwen that Aragorn would not come back, and he did. Was he using his gift of foresight when he said that? I think he was using his overprotective father voice (© Elu Thingol) more than foresight.

4. Was Arwen's vision of her son also a gift of foresight? Does that mean you can inherit it? And if she did, why doesn't she see anything else, like something about Aragorn's future or her own? If I believe they gave Elrond foresight due to his ancestry, it's only fair that Arwen gets it too, so I will say it was genetic. I think PJ limited their foresight as a way of demonstrating that while Elves are a race above, they are still diminishing in Middle Earth. After all, even the Wise cannot see all ends.

As three great Jewels they were in form. But not until the End, when Fëanor shall return who perished ere the Sun was made, and sits now in the Halls of Awaiting and comes no more among his kin; not until the Sun passes and the Moon falls, shall it be known of what substance they were made. Like the crystal of diamonds it appeared, and yet was more strong than adamant, so that no violence could mar it or break it within the Kingdom of Arda.


Darkstone
Immortal


Jun 4 2012, 4:02pm

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Elrond Holmes: A Game of Shadows [In reply to] Can't Post

1. In film-verse only, how do you explain Elrond's gift of foresight?

From the Sil: “Now Melian had much foresight, after the manner of the Maiar; and when the second age of the captivity of Melkor had passed, she counselled Thingol that the Peace of Arda would not last for ever.”

Apparently Maiar have the gift of foresight. (Possibly this is due to them being able to hear the echoes of the Music of the Ainur.) So Elrond as the great-great grandson of Melian would seem to have it. Note that others with both a stronger tie to Maiar blood (Gandalf himself) and a lesser (Aragorn, Faramir, and Boromir) have foresight. (Note the Dunedain as a people are specifically mentioned as having foresight: “’That will indeed be your fate,’ said Gilraen; but though she had in a measure the foresight of her people, she said no more to him of her foreboding, nor did she speak to any one of what her son had told her.” From Appendix A, The Tale of Aragorn and Arwen)

Also: "...a mind can learn of the future only from another mind which has seen it. But that means only from Eru ultimately, or mediately from some mind that has seen in Eru some part of His purpose (such as the Ainur who are now the Valar in Eä)." – From Osanwe-kenta, Enquiry into the Communication of Thought.

(Two main conduits from Eru to his Children are the Valar known as the Fëanturi, the masters of spirits, the brothers Mandos and Lorien.)

On the other hand, many of The Wise have a type of foresight which is more logical than mystical: “Minds that have great knowledge of the past, the present, and the nature of Eä may predict with great accuracy, and the nearer the future the clearer (saving always the freedom of Eru). Much therefore of what is called ‘foresight’ in careless speech is only the deduction of the wise; and if it be received, as warning or instruction, from the Valar, it may be only deduction of the wiser, though it may sometimes be ‘foresight’ at second hand.” –ibid.

(Among The Wise who had foresight were Fëanor and Glorfindel.)

An excellent example of the difference between the two is the “amilessë”, or "mother-name", the name given to an Elf at or slightly after the child's birth by his or her mother. The amilessi tercenyë (mother-names of insight) were bestowed upon the child when the mother perceived by insight some dominant feature of the child’s nature. The amilessi apacenyë (mother-names of foresight) were bestowed when through foresight the mother perceived the child was destined for some special fate. (See Of the Laws and Customs Among the Eldar, Morgoth's Ring, HoME 10.)


Galadriel has a mirror she can look into -- but Elrond doesn't have any kind of prop. Do the films give us enough to go on to explain how and why Elrond can see things that haven't happened yet?

This seems to indicate that Elrond’s “foresight” is of a more logical and inductive nature, like the “fortune telling” aspect of the reasoning of Sherlock Holmes, so he wouldn’t need a mystical focus like Galadriel does. (Then again, the use of a focus, like eyeglasses, may merely help you see *better*.)


2. Why did they bother to include Elrond's foresight in the films at all? What purpose does it serve?

It served as an obstruction to the love story of Aragorn and Arwen.

“But Elrond saw many things and read many hearts. One day, therefore, before the fall of the year he called Aragorn to his chamber, and he said: "Aragorn, Arathorn's son, Lord of the Dúnedain, listen to me! A great doom awaits you, either to rise above the height of all your fathers since the days of Elendil, or to fall into darkness with all that is left of your kin. Many years of trial lie before you. You shall neither have wife, nor bind any woman to you in troth, until your time comes and you are found worthy of it.’

”Then Aragorn was troubled, and he said: ‘Can it be that my mother has spoken of this?’

”'No indeed,’ said Elrond. ‘Your own eyes have betrayed you. But I do not speak of my daughter alone. You shall be betrothed to no man's child as yet. But as for Arwen the Fair, Lady of Imladris and of Lórien, Evenstar of her people, she is of lineage greater than yours, and she has lived in the world already so long that to her you are but as a yearling shoot beside a young birch of many summers. She is too far above you. And so, I think, it may well seem to her. But even if it were not so, and her heart turned towards you, I should still be grieved because of the doom that is laid on us.’

”’What is that doom?’ said Aragorn.

”'That so long as I abide here, she shall live with the youth of the Eldar,’ answered Elrond, ‘and when I depart, she shall go with me, if she so chooses.’"
-Appendix A, The Tale of Aragorn and Arwen.


3. It seems to me that Elrond needs some glasses for that foresight of his -- after all, he told Arwen that Aragorn would not come back, and he did. Was he using his gift of foresight when he said that?

There is as old saying among soothsayers: “The stars do not compel, they can only impel.” That is, the stars may incline someone towards a certain fate, but the individual does have free will, and so they may still avoid it. Evidently Aragorn had deep reserves of strength and will that Elrond did not take into account in his pronouncement. (Or he was somehow mislead by Sauron. It could happen.)

Note that even Galadriel had her failures: “In her wisdom Galadriel saw that Lórien would be a stronghold and point of power to prevent the Shadow from crossing the Anduin in the war that must inevitably come before it was again defeated (if that were possible); but that it needed a rule of greater strength and wisdom than the Silvan folk possessed. Nevertheless, it was not until the disaster in Moria, when by means beyond the foresight of Galadriel Sauron’s power actually crossed the Anduin and Lórien was in great peril, its king lost, its people fleeing and likely to leave it deserted to be occupied by Orcs, that Galadriel and Celeborn took up their permanent abode in Lórien, and its government.” (From The History of Galadriel and Celeborn’, Unfinished Tales, emphasis mine.).

Additionally, in both film and book we see Sauron conducting a vigorous campaign of disinformation against Denethor, the Rohirrim, Aragorn, and even Gandalf. So one may well expect Sauron would be feeding misleading information to Elrond’s sources (whatever they were), leading Elrond to deduce that things were far more dire than they actually were.


4. Was Arwen's vision of her son also a gift of foresight? Does that mean you can inherit it? And if she did, why doesn't she see anything else, like something about Aragorn's future or her own?

I’m thinking it’s a manifestation of that gift of foresight that Elven mothers have as shown when they grant names to their children, a sort of prenatal, preconception, amilessi apacenyë.


Does that mean you can inherit it?

Well, she is 3.125% Maia.


And if she did, why doesn't she see anything else, like something about Aragorn's future or her own?

She does: “Your time will come. You will face the same evil, and you will defeat it.”


5. Any other musings along these lines?

It suddenly becomes obvious why Elrond's supposedly wise chief councellor comes off as a bit of a dim bulb during the Council. Tolkien has given Erestor the thankless task of playing Watson to Elrond's Holmes.


I foresee a good discussion or at least I hope so! Thanks in advance to all who choose to lurk or reply!

I see a chicken salad sandwich in my future.

******************************************
The audacious proposal stirred his heart. And the stirring became a song, and it mingled with the songs of Gil-galad and Celebrian, and with those of Feanor and Fingon. The song-weaving created a larger song, and then another, until suddenly it was as if a long forgotten memory woke and for one breathtaking moment the Music of the Ainur revealed itself in all glory. He opened his lips to sing and share this song. Then he realized that the others would not understand. Not even Mithrandir given his current state of mind. So he smiled and simply said "A diversion.”


 
 

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