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The One Ring Forums: Tolkien Topics: Movie Discussion: The Lord of the Rings:
leaving Rivendell (EE)
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dijomaja
Lorien

May 19 2012, 10:39am

Post #1 of 28 (872 views)
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leaving Rivendell (EE) Can't Post

I have my quarrels with some of the additional material in the EEs but I think the scenes in FOTR work. In particular I like the expanded scene of the Fellowship leaving Rivendell. They're obviously following some ancient custom in which the central figure in the Quest has to lead but Frodo has to ask, in low tones, "Mordor, Gandalf - left or right?".

There's also an added minute or two of music that starts with a variation of the Fellowship theme and goes some particularly nice places. Howard Shore must have like it, too. With all that had to be cut to fit the whole story into the LOTR Symphony he kept that section intact.


Lily Fairbairn
Half-elven


May 19 2012, 4:14pm

Post #2 of 28 (399 views)
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I agree [In reply to] Can't Post

I love that particular bit of music, how it starts out so subtly and then leads into the full orchestra playing the Fellowship theme.

But then, Shore is a genius.... Smile

* * * * * * *
Do we walk in legends or on the green earth in the daylight?

A man may do both. For not we but those who come after will make the legends of our time. The green earth, say you? That is a mighty matter of legend, though you tread it under the light of day!


ElendilTheShort
Gondor

May 20 2012, 4:20am

Post #3 of 28 (415 views)
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I liked [In reply to] Can't Post

the leaving Rivendell scene right up to the left or right question. That was utterly pathetic, unfunny and had nothing good about it at all and ruined the rest of the scene preceding it. It pretty much represents all that was worst about these films.


DanielLB
Immortal


May 20 2012, 8:24am

Post #4 of 28 (400 views)
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Interesting reasoning [In reply to] Can't Post

But why do you find it "utterly pathetic"? Frodo asks a valid question, which path, left or right? I would've done the same if I didn't know the way. Wink


ElendilTheShort
Gondor

May 20 2012, 9:07am

Post #5 of 28 (408 views)
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Because it seemed like a lame attempt at humour. [In reply to] Can't Post

I felt that what was meant to be a momentous occasion was theatrically turned into a cliched joke. If they had written it so he had asked Gandalf in some other way it may have seemed OK. As I said, for me at least it significatly ruined the buildup to the departure, but thankfully the displeasure gets almost completely erased by the excellent footage and musical score that follows as the Fellowship are travelling. Especially the climactic shot and musical cresendo as we have the close up of each of the Nine Walkers.

I can see how the left or right comment may have been nothing out of place to many but it just really bugged me as being out of context with the occasion.


dijomaja
Lorien

May 20 2012, 11:10am

Post #6 of 28 (379 views)
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in re: all the above [In reply to] Can't Post

It's funny how something like this can strike a completely different chord in different people. Prof. Tom Shippey writes about the way Tolkien contrasts the plain speech and simple ways of the Hobbits with the elevated discourse and formal customs of the Elves, Men and Dwarves they meet. I thought the scene in question was a great humanizing (Hobbitizing?) moment. We're obviously meant to infer that some ceremonial protocol dictates that Frodo (as the central figure in the Quest) must be in the front of the procession but he doesn't know what to do. Gandalf's poker-faced sotto voce reply tells us that he's observing the formalities while acknowledging Frodo's awkward position. A nice down-to-(Middle)-earth moment in the mythical proceedings.

Otherwise - complete agreement on the cinematography, score, etc.


Harold.of.Whoa
Rivendell


May 20 2012, 3:03pm

Post #7 of 28 (344 views)
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About the LOTR Symphony... [In reply to] Can't Post

Dijomaja,

I was drawn to your recognition of the fact that the leaving Rivendell music was incorporated into the Symphony. That was one of the early things I noticed when I started listening to the Symphony a few months ago. It was noticeable to me because it was one of a few sections that I didn't recognize right away. (As you might remember, I am not a huge fan of the EEs and rarely watch them, and I don't own the Complete Recordings.) The music at the viewing of Caras Galadhon was another example. Curiosity about the music led me to go back and look for those scenes in the EE with fresh eyes. I agree with your take on the leaving Rivendell GPS moment. (That's Gandalf Positioning System.)

Back to the Symphony, the thing that fascinates me most is the editing concept in the composition - the balance between incorporating the 'best' of the music, making the sections fit together aesthetically, and turning it all into a cohesive musical narrative of the story (or at least of a story.) Oh, and limiting it to a reasonable time for a single concert.

I was really intrigued by the decision to recreate in toto several of the OST tracks (particularly from TTT and RotK) even though those particular musical sequences jump around somewhat chaotically in the chronology of the films. That seemed a bit lazy to me at first, but even within some of those sections I can see a concerted effort (pun intended) to tighten up an actual narrative in music.


DanielLB
Immortal


May 20 2012, 5:31pm

Post #8 of 28 (340 views)
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I never considered it to be a joke [In reply to] Can't Post

So that's why it doesn't bother me. I see your point though Smile


Ataahua
Superuser / Moderator


May 21 2012, 12:15am

Post #9 of 28 (347 views)
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And I saw it in yet another way: [In reply to] Can't Post

Frodo is out of his depth and relies heavily on Gandalf, and Gandalf is there to help him but not take over. A nice shorthand of their relationship on a dangerous journey, I thought.

This puts me in mind of the observer effect in physics: The scene is different for each of us!

Celebrimbor: "Pretty rings..."
Dwarves: "Pretty rings..."
Men: "Pretty rings..."
Sauron: "Mine's better."

"Ah, how ironic, the addictive qualities of Sauron’s master weapon led to its own destruction. Which just goes to show, kids - if you want two small and noble souls to succeed on a mission of dire importance... send an evil-minded b*****d with them too." - Gandalf's Diaries, final par, by Ufthak.


Ataahua's stories


ElendilTheShort
Gondor

May 21 2012, 1:05am

Post #10 of 28 (329 views)
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I agree [In reply to] Can't Post

with the whole concept of Gandalf guiding Frodo. I must be in the minority as one who saw this as an attempt at humor at what I thought was the wrong time. It lowered the entire tone of the scene. This is how fine a line it is for me, if Frodo had looked down each path and said something to the effect similar to his earlier line during the Council of Elrond, "I do nor know the way" it would have been OK. I will watch it again and see if it still comes across the wrong way to me.

The only thing to say is you can't keep everybody happy all the time.


(This post was edited by ElendilTheShort on May 21 2012, 1:06am)


dijomaja
Lorien

May 21 2012, 10:49am

Post #11 of 28 (295 views)
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in re: all the NEW above... [In reply to] Can't Post

One of the things I always liked about both book and film was the way they often juggle the serious and the comic. There is some humor in the contrast between "the plain speech and simple ways of the Hobbits and the elevated discourse and formal customs of the Elves, Men and Dwarves they meet" but I didn't see it as a "lame attempt". and, sure, the Gandalf/Frodo relationship is nicely done - this scene is just one good example.

To Harold: I had a post a while back on how the LOTR Symphony seemed to have slipped under the radar (or out of view of the Palantir) as far as these boards were concerned. Even our musically-minded colleagues like Magpie and Altaira seemed to have missed it. Lately I've been listening to it a lot and, with a few reservations, I think it's a really good companion piece to the original score. If I read you right, I agree that there were times when we sense the pull between the demands of the story and more purely musical considerations.


Magpie
Immortal


May 21 2012, 1:45pm

Post #12 of 28 (297 views)
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Magpie had other things on her mind... [In reply to] Can't Post

and, although I bought the symphony, I wasn't in a position to attend to it. And now, I just keep forgetting I have it.

Altaira has never indicated more affection for the the score any more than the average fan here. Loresilme and Lily Fairbairn are two that stick out as having discussed the score in the last year or so and many more have made comments that they like it.


LOTR soundtrack website
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Lily Fairbairn
Half-elven


May 21 2012, 3:06pm

Post #13 of 28 (287 views)
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Well . . . [In reply to] Can't Post

I didn't know there was an LotR Symphony until y'all started discussing it here! I've looked it up and may buy it---I have a coupon burning a hole in my pocket.

I'm wondering how similar it is to the live performance of the music that was going around several years ago. Not the one accompanying one of the films, but a performance of selections from the score, with Howe and Lee sketches projected on a screen overhead. HS himself conducted some performances, but not the one we attended in Dallas.

* * * * * * *
Do we walk in legends or on the green earth in the daylight?

A man may do both. For not we but those who come after will make the legends of our time. The green earth, say you? That is a mighty matter of legend, though you tread it under the light of day!


Magpie
Immortal


May 21 2012, 3:32pm

Post #14 of 28 (290 views)
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unless I'm mistaken [In reply to] Can't Post

the recordings are exactly that: the live concerts that reflect the entire trilogy's score (as opposed to the concerts played live to film which reflect one movie's score) and was played live to sketches from the movie.

For those who haven't seen one of these concerts, the music does not try to follow the movie as much as sample the music one hears. So one might hear the Revelation of the Ringwraiths but only once and not necessarily in a way that reflects some precise scene order.

I wager to say, your favorite music is there... the Breaking of the Fellowship... the March of the Ents... but you can't directly track the music to action on screen and I don't know if all the end of the movie songs are there.

I wrote a report on the concert I saw in Minneapolis. It was written to a friend and was intended as a personal note to her (although there are no personal details in there) ... not as a review for the world. So there are lots of odd little observations in there. And I wasn't terribly kind to our local symphony nor to the presentation of images on screen. So be prepared (if one reads it) for some negative comments.

But I do cover the nature of this work as review of the score and not a reproduction of what one hears on screen.
http://www.amagpiesnest.com/...y/LOTRSymphony-p.htm

It definitely is the same music but presented in a 'new-ish' way. I think it will provides a different way of listening to the music that can be enjoyable to both the casual and avid soundtrack fan.


LOTR soundtrack website
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Darkstone
Immortal


May 21 2012, 4:57pm

Post #15 of 28 (278 views)
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The exaltation of the humble, the puncture of the proud. [In reply to] Can't Post

A major point about hobbits is how they bring the snooty high and mighty down to earth. They do the same with situations, from Sam's childlike recitation re Gandalf's fireworks during the Galadhrim's solemn dirge, to M&P's polite yet homey greatings of the mighty during Flotsam and Jetsam, to Frodo deciding to honor King Elessar by naming his pony "Strider".

Glad PJ picked up on that.

******************************************
The audacious proposal stirred his heart. And the stirring became a song, and it mingled with the songs of Gil-galad and Celebrian, and with those of Feanor and Fingon. The song-weaving created a larger song, and then another, until suddenly it was as if a long forgotten memory woke and for one breathtaking moment the Music of the Ainur revealed itself in all glory. He opened his lips to sing and share this song. Then he realized that the others would not understand. Not even Mithrandir given his current state of mind. So he smiled and simply said "A diversion.”



Oscarilbo
Lorien


May 21 2012, 4:58pm

Post #16 of 28 (266 views)
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well... [In reply to] Can't Post

I've always loved this scene...

I've never watched it as a "funny moment", but on the contrary a very dramatic one.

We are about to get into this big epic enterprise, all done, all prepared, and yet until that moment we haven't even thought of where to begin in the first place. It's like saying "even the greatest adventure begin with on single step", very much in line with "even the smallest person can chance the course of the future".

It's a very dramatic moment and the music enforces that.

"The World is Changed, I feel it in the water. I feel it in the earth. I smell it in the air"

(This post was edited by Oscarilbo on May 21 2012, 5:00pm)


Darkstone
Immortal


May 21 2012, 5:11pm

Post #17 of 28 (249 views)
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Lots of subtext here. [In reply to] Can't Post

After Elrond's fancy speech this clearly indicates that it is after all Frodo's quest. He will have to be the one making the hard decisions. (Like on Caradhras.)

He will have to find a way to Mordor. But, as he said, he does not know the way. For now he can depend upon the gentle hand of Gandalf. But then he will follow the ranger instincts of Aragorn, then the treacherous guidance of Gollum, and finally the emerging leadership of Sam.

Glad PJ picked up on that.

BTW, I note that we are reminded that of course Frodo does not know the way out of Rivendell because he was brought in unconscious.

So many levels here.

******************************************
The audacious proposal stirred his heart. And the stirring became a song, and it mingled with the songs of Gil-galad and Celebrian, and with those of Feanor and Fingon. The song-weaving created a larger song, and then another, until suddenly it was as if a long forgotten memory woke and for one breathtaking moment the Music of the Ainur revealed itself in all glory. He opened his lips to sing and share this song. Then he realized that the others would not understand. Not even Mithrandir given his current state of mind. So he smiled and simply said "A diversion.”



Magpie
Immortal


May 21 2012, 5:27pm

Post #18 of 28 (262 views)
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ha... a much better explanation of what I was trying to get at. :-) // [In reply to] Can't Post

 


LOTR soundtrack website
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dijomaja
Lorien

May 21 2012, 7:26pm

Post #19 of 28 (256 views)
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corrections, etc. [In reply to] Can't Post

First, apologies to Magpie - no implication that you were shirking your responsibilities. And, yes, it was Lily Fairbairn who I had expected to join you in beating me to writing about the Symphony. We had an enjoyable exchange over the music of Vaughan Williams as an alternative Shire soundtrack. I must have confused the "...air..." in "Fairbairn" with the one in "Altaira" (another correspondent that I've agreed with on some subjects that I can't remember).

As for the Symphony itself, following the story through the music as presented would give you whiplash. I think Shore did a great job throughout the films of balancing the demands of storytelling with purely musical considerations. This was his chance to put the music first.

Anyhow, for all the different points of view there seems to be some agreement that the scene in question does a nice job of depicting the contrast between the mythical and the down-to-earth (and how Tolkien - and the filmmakers - blended them so well). Harold's not a big fan of the EEs but I think the additions work in FOTR and this scene in particular.


Lily Fairbairn
Half-elven


May 21 2012, 7:47pm

Post #20 of 28 (242 views)
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Aha! [In reply to] Can't Post

A quick look through your notes has convinced me that I saw the same concert---well, the same music performed by different musicians. A lot of my favorite bits were in there, and yet there were quite a few left out, too, but you'd expect that when the original score is about ten hours long!

Thank you for answering my question.

* * * * * * *
Do we walk in legends or on the green earth in the daylight?

A man may do both. For not we but those who come after will make the legends of our time. The green earth, say you? That is a mighty matter of legend, though you tread it under the light of day!


Lily Fairbairn
Half-elven


May 21 2012, 7:49pm

Post #21 of 28 (243 views)
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And again, aha! [In reply to] Can't Post

I'm honored to be confused with Altaira Smile

I don't know how I missed out on the existence of the Symphony, but many thanks to you and Magpie for calling it to my attention.

* * * * * * *
Do we walk in legends or on the green earth in the daylight?

A man may do both. For not we but those who come after will make the legends of our time. The green earth, say you? That is a mighty matter of legend, though you tread it under the light of day!


Magpie
Immortal


May 21 2012, 8:18pm

Post #22 of 28 (242 views)
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I do the same thing with names [In reply to] Can't Post

to the extreme.

I remember: her name is short and begins with an A

So I know the difference between Ann and Amy but I'll get their name wrong more often than not.


LOTR soundtrack website
magpie avatar gallery ~ Torn Image Posting Guide


dijomaja
Lorien

May 23 2012, 10:39am

Post #23 of 28 (215 views)
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...and more... [In reply to] Can't Post

I was looking at a painting once, thinking it looked like...Monserrat?, but I realized it was somewhere between Monet and Seurat. Funny things, brains.

To Lily: My original post, back awhile, was about how surprising it was that even the big LOTR music fans (like you, Magpie, Harold & myself) seem to have missed that on its release.


imin
Valinor

May 23 2012, 8:28pm

Post #24 of 28 (223 views)
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i took it as an attempt at humour. [In reply to] Can't Post

Which didnt work. I think, had i seen it from the other perspectives of people in this thread i would like that little exchange more. I didnt get the impression it was a hobbit cutting through the snobbery of the wizards and elves. I took it more as the movie portraying frodo as dumb. In the book i feel frodo is braver and just generally has a bit more about him than in the movie and for me this scene highlights that, making light of something which should be really important.

I think ultimately i agree with you, just i perhaps dont feel quite so strongly about it.

I think this view has come about though from repeat viewings where i have found more and more things irritate me (though FOTR is my favourite) maybe from being able to pick up things i didnt notice upon first viewings.


dijomaja
Lorien

May 24 2012, 10:20am

Post #25 of 28 (241 views)
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lost in the shuffle... [In reply to] Can't Post

...was the point of the post. I didn't see it as an attempt to show up pretension in a "slobs vs. snobs" sense or as an attempt at humo(u)r. The original reference was to Prof. Shippey's comparison of the two worlds that exist side-by-side. In the book, Eomer asks, "Do we walk in legends or on the green earth in the daylight?", to which Aragorn replies, "...both." I think this scene does a great job of depicting that. Magpie & I have both noted that we "write to find out what we think". This thread has helped me make some connections that I might have otherwise missed.

Listen to the LOTR Symphony, too.

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