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The One Ring Forums: Tolkien Topics: Movie Discussion: The Lord of the Rings:
SCOD - part 35 - Council of Elrond

Nuradar
Rohan


May 18 2012, 4:31pm

Post #1 of 20 (701 views)
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SCOD - part 35 - Council of Elrond Can't Post

Apologies for the delay - I hope it's worth it. Here we have a shot from the Council of Elrond. It's the council members reacting to Frodo after he volunteered to take the ring to Mordor.

You can find the full-size image here: http://www.framecaplib.com/lotrlib/html/episodes/images/fotr/fotr0830.htm

1. What do you think of the composition of this shot - well balanced? Does any one person stand out to you, or maybe the background lattice work of the Elves?

2. What do make of the characters' facial expressions? Does any one stand out to you, or do you feel they all look the same?

3. What do their faces reveal to you? Surprise? Disbelief? Doubt? Something else?

4. Any other comments on the characters, the color in this shot, the lower angle (Frodo's POV, supposedly)?

Have at it...

(This post was edited by Nuradar on May 18 2012, 4:34pm)


Nuradar
Rohan


May 18 2012, 5:00pm

Post #2 of 20 (218 views)
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Can't seem to embed the picture [In reply to] Can't Post

I've tried everything I can think of and I can't seem to embed the picture into the post. Sorry guys...

Nuradar


Nightingale
Rohan


May 18 2012, 5:05pm

Post #3 of 20 (236 views)
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I had never really looked at it properly before [In reply to] Can't Post

as it is there and gone in a flash, but I love it! Although, it looks a little odd when taken out of context; like one of those drama warm-ups when the teacher goes "now give me...angry!...happy!...shocked and worried!" Laugh.

The lattice is (as with all elvish woodwork) wonderfully detailed. I particularly like the expressions of the men in between Boromir and the two elves, and the fact that one of them seems to be holding some sort of weapon? Apparently the arguing is becoming increasingly heated...

I am one of the fans of the lighting/colouration in Rivendell *ducks*, but does anyone else feel that the colours look washed out here?

Who/What is the very tall 'cloak' on the left hand side?

Thanks! Smile




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Magpie
Immortal


May 18 2012, 5:35pm

Post #4 of 20 (293 views)
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clickable link and comments on your problems embedding [In reply to] Can't Post

In order to embed, you'd have to reduce the size of the image. If you have the capability to do that such that it is under 45KB and meets the pixel requirements, then we can problem solve how to embed (although that might more properly be done on Feedback).

If you can't reduce the size of the image (because you don't have the skill or software), then I think providing a link to the picture works just as well.

Here's the link as a clicky: http://www.framecaplib.com/...es/fotr/fotr0830.htm

Post on Feedback if you want more help or walkthrough.


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Magpie
Immortal


May 18 2012, 5:38pm

Post #5 of 20 (226 views)
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I think the cloak belongs to Elrond [In reply to] Can't Post

He's 'chairing' the proceedings and is pretty much facing the rest of the attendees (with an elf on each side of him).

So it would make sense that the camera has stepped behind him to film the reaction of many of the people there.


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Arwen's daughter
Half-elven


May 18 2012, 5:46pm

Post #6 of 20 (192 views)
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I think it's the wrong color for Elrond [In reply to] Can't Post

he's wearing a very rusty colored robe in this scene and this looks more bluish-grey. Looking a couple of images back, I think it belongs to one of the random else with Legolas.


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Magpie
Immortal


May 18 2012, 5:50pm

Post #7 of 20 (246 views)
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not meant to be examine closely... I think. :-) [In reply to] Can't Post

I think this whole scene was a bear to film. They had to film shots over and over again and keep track of line of sights and scale doubles and I don't think they got it all 100% perfect. They're hoping we don't notice but here we go ... taking a long and lingering look at it. :-)


The line of sight for the two Elves is off. The Dwarves don't seem to be reacting at all, most likely because they can't get the scale thing right without a lot of fussing. I noticed that, at the Council of Elrond, John Rhys-Davies' Gimli is always (or almost always) shown in a very tight close up. If you see 'Gimli' from a distance with other Council members, it's Brett.

The expression of non-principal actors is also very non-reactive. Some shots of certain Dwarves look like they're asleep. I think with the Dwaves, the prosthetic make up was a problem. With all of them, I think they we told to be a bit still and stoic so that shots of them could be used for any point in the scene without worrying about continuity.

And, some of these fellows weren't actors. (although some were actors)

I think Gandalf and Boromir stand out, which makes sense amongst the people they are shown with. (as members of the future Fellowship)


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Magpie
Immortal


May 18 2012, 5:54pm

Post #8 of 20 (193 views)
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didn't think about that. [In reply to] Can't Post

But rather than one of Legolas' troop, why not go with one of the Elves to either side of Elrond

https://picasaweb.google.com/...#5503079715783995234

keep hitting next in this album to see more.

The positioning would make more sense.

See this image:
https://picasaweb.google.com/...#5503072696687671906


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Finwe
Lorien


May 18 2012, 6:07pm

Post #9 of 20 (197 views)
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Some Thoughts [In reply to] Can't Post

  • Boromir and Gandalf certainly seem to stand out, which would make sense since they're characters I recognize.
  • Figwit's facial expression is priceless.
  • Evidently Gimli wasn't paying much attention, as he appears to be looking off in a different direction totally ignoring Frodo.
  • One thing I wonder about this shot is who are all the men supposed to be? Was there an AARP meeting immediately following the Council?


As three great Jewels they were in form. But not until the End, when FŽanor shall return who perished ere the Sun was made, and sits now in the Halls of Awaiting and comes no more among his kin; not until the Sun passes and the Moon falls, shall it be known of what substance they were made. Like the crystal of diamonds it appeared, and yet was more strong than adamant, so that no violence could mar it or break it within the Kingdom of Arda.


DanielLB
Immortal


May 18 2012, 6:19pm

Post #10 of 20 (217 views)
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Does anyone else think... [In reply to] Can't Post

The 3rd man from the right of the picture looks like Gandalf, just with a shorter beard? Crazy

Kind of, not very?

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Finwe
Lorien


May 18 2012, 6:25pm

Post #11 of 20 (192 views)
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I can see it// [In reply to] Can't Post

 

As three great Jewels they were in form. But not until the End, when FŽanor shall return who perished ere the Sun was made, and sits now in the Halls of Awaiting and comes no more among his kin; not until the Sun passes and the Moon falls, shall it be known of what substance they were made. Like the crystal of diamonds it appeared, and yet was more strong than adamant, so that no violence could mar it or break it within the Kingdom of Arda.


Magpie
Immortal


May 18 2012, 6:33pm

Post #12 of 20 (208 views)
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Well, I can tell you who Decipher thought they were [In reply to] Can't Post

I'm not sure how much these character ids were guided by the film people or not.

The two sitting between the Elves (including Legolas) and the Dwarves are:

Ottar - Man of Laketown
Dasron - Merchant From Dorwinion

The four sitting between the Dwarves and Aragorn are

Erland - Advisor to Brand / Dale Counselor
Boromir
Hugin - Emissary from Laketown
Jarnsmid - Barding Emissary / Merchant from Dale


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DanielLB
Immortal


May 18 2012, 6:38pm

Post #13 of 20 (245 views)
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Not so similar.... [In reply to] Can't Post

https://picasaweb.google.com/...#5503076993002897682

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jschomburg
Rivendell

May 18 2012, 7:28pm

Post #14 of 20 (174 views)
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Before looking at picture you linked to... [In reply to] Can't Post

Thought he might be a cousin Laugh to Gandalf, little shorter and more stocky, but similar in features.


Kristin Thompson
Rohan


May 18 2012, 7:50pm

Post #15 of 20 (201 views)
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I agree, Magpie [In reply to] Can't Post

I have always thought that this scene was a remarkable exercise in precise eyeline matching. Putting this many people in a circle, with the eyelines constantly shifting as the different people talk, is a nightmare to shooting and edit (especially given how many takes PJ uses). There's not a single cut in this long sequence where a character is looking the wrong direction at the cut (e.g., Boromir staring off front right at Aragorn, sneeringly, and Aragorn looking off front right, defiantly). Nope, they're all correct. It helps, of course, that most of the time all or most of the characters are staying put in one spot, sitting down.

Here the reason that some of the characters' eyelines seem off is because the frame is from the middle of the shot, when they're still in the process of turning to look at Frodo. If you watch the shot and freeze it at the very end, all the characters are looking in the same direction. In fact, very briefly in the middle of the shot Boromir glances at Gandalf, as if to say, "We can't take this seriously, can we?" It's basically the equivalent of the moment in the book when Bilbo offers to take the Ring to Mordor, and this happens: "Boromir looked in surprise at Bilbo, but the laughter died on his lips when he saw that all the others regarded the old hobbit with grave respect." But of course, in the film Bilbo's not present, so the filmmakers transfer Boromir's surprise to the moment when Frodo makes his offer. By the end of the shot, like the others, Boromir is looking at Frodo again. (It's one of the many little moments where the film tries to stay fairly close to the book even while changing it--which the filmmakers don't get much credit for, since people don't always notice such moments.)

In general I think PJ and company (Jamie Selkirk, etc.) are pretty good with eyeline directions, though not perfect. But that definitely doesn't mean that the matching in general is 100% perfect. The problems often come from the action and/or positions of the characters being mismatched from shot to shot. With the multiple cameras and many takes, the editors ended up with a huge number of choices, and the ones they edited together often create disparities in where the characters are in relation to each other--since most of the time they're not conveniently sitting down. Plus, as you say, switching from actors to size doubles and back creates the occasional sense of discontinuity from shot to shot, and the forced perspective sometimes means that the characters don't seems as if they're looking directly at each other--because they're not!

Fortunately our minds seem capable of ignoring most such problems, unless the eyelines make it completely unclear as to who is where in the scene--or unless we've been trained to notice such things. Or, as you say, we start staring long and hard at a SCOD!


Shelob'sAppetite
Valinor

May 18 2012, 8:07pm

Post #16 of 20 (203 views)
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Hard to comment on the Rivendell scenes [In reply to] Can't Post

As Rivendell was, IMO, Andrew Lesnie's worst work in terms of coloration, etc. It all seems so artificial that I can barely watch it (except for the conversation b/w Gandalf and Elrond, and the scenes at night in the room with the shards of Narsil, which were much better).

I also found that the Council scene was butchered beyond recognition. We could have gotten some great back-stories and rationales for the motivations of the new Fellowship members (Boromir, Legolas and Gimli) but are instead treated to a very simplistic and unbelievable "debate," that ends in a free-for-all shouting match that the World Wrestling Federation might have been proud of, followed by a Fellowship of the Ring photo-op, with the nine standing in perfect photo-op position.

A real drop in the film's quality, which only begins to improve on the slopes of Caradhras.


telain
Rohan

May 18 2012, 9:59pm

Post #17 of 20 (183 views)
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Hobbits should be seen and not heard! [In reply to] Can't Post

1. What do you think of the composition of this shot - well balanced? Does any one person stand out to you, or maybe the background lattice work of the Elves?

The tracery is almost overpowering, particularly the contrast of light and dark, compared to the subtle shades of the costumes. I also like the depth you get through the tracery -- I like how you can look through it, just as the characters seem to be looking through the audience (i.e., Frodo).

2. What do make of the characters' facial expressions? Does any one stand out to you, or do you feel they all look the same?

The expression on many of the faces here suggest that a small precocious child just wandered on to the scene and said something rather shocking. I suppose, in effect, that is how many of the characters in this shot would have viewed the situation, having little to no experience with Hobbits.

3. What do their faces reveal to you? Surprise? Disbelief? Doubt? Something else?

Figwit looks suspicious... perhaps I am referencing a different discussion thread...

Surprise, but in reference to my answer above, I would add almost indignation -- or irritation. "Who is this upstart Halfling?"

Gandalf looks particularly perplexed.


FaramirAndEowynMorningStar
Rohan


May 19 2012, 11:54am

Post #18 of 20 (188 views)
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Hm.... [In reply to] Can't Post

1. What do you think of the composition of this shot - well balanced? Does any one person stand out to you, or maybe the background lattice work of the Elves?: Well balanced. Gandalf seems to stand out due to his beard and grey robes.

2. What do make of the characters' facial expressions? Does any one stand out to you, or do you feel they all look the same?: Gandalf seems to have pity in his face. Boromir seems a little surprised and so are some of the other council members. They almost look the same.

3. What do their faces reveal to you? Surprise? Disbelief? Doubt? Something else?: Surprise mostly, as I mentioned briefly above.

4. Any other comments on the characters, the color in this shot, the lower angle (Frodo's POV, supposedly)?: Frodo's Point Of View is a fabulous idea in this shot. It lets you see what Frodo sees in his friends etc.
I love the design in the background too and the gold gives it the right touch. I would call that hint of gold "hope" just by the way they've done it.
Excellent screencap!

......"Since the first time I met you,
..I couldn't seem to forget you.
.......And lately I seem to find,
..That you're always on my mind.
.......Whenever I see you smile,
..It makes my life so very worthwhile.
......And ever since the very start,
.....You have always been there in my heart.
..Then I heard that you felt the same way,
......And those words were so easy to say."


willowing
Lorien

May 19 2012, 10:43pm

Post #19 of 20 (177 views)
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SCOD-Council of Elrond [In reply to] Can't Post

What do you think of the composition of this shot - well balanced? Does any one person stand out to you, or maybe the background lattice work of the Elves?

The lattice work in the background made an impression on me. It's a beautiful piece of design work. I can just imagine the wind whistling through the bars and grates to give off humming sounds. It just whispers with memories. Having some of the characters gathered together in front of the lattice gives the shot good balance. Any one person who stands out would have to be Gandalf looks like he's burdened down with cares and worries.

What do make of the characters' facial expressions? Does any one stand out to you, or do you feel they all look the same?

The expressions on the older characters seem to stand out more. You can see it in their eyes, their bodies speak tension. Gandalf's fingers wrapped tensely around his staff and the gentleman in the background behind Boromir(the 2nd one) with his hands clasped together?

What do their faces reveal to you? Surprise? Disbelief? Doubt? Something else?

Gandalf(my words) "Eh, What's that?" "Speak up Frodo I didn't hear." Look.
Boromir, I can't believe what I have just heard look
Everything else is a sense of surprise, wonder, doubt and disbelief with a bit tension added to the mix. Not sure if the makeup was applied to give off that drained look.

Any other comments on the characters, the color in this shot, the lower angle (Frodo's POV, supposedly)?

Scenery, costumes, background they all seem to blend in well with the shot.





Xanaseb
Tol Eressea


May 20 2012, 10:50pm

Post #20 of 20 (180 views)
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hmmm :) [In reply to] Can't Post


1. What do you think of the composition of this shot - well balanced? Does any one person stand out to you, or maybe the background lattice work of the Elves?


Well I think it's pretty packed and messy hehe. But possibly deliberately so. I think the elf next to FIGWIT stands out quite a bit. My attention does in a way draw to the lattice work, because of the way in which they cover the bottom half of the shot, in almost a mirror-like way to the lattice.

2. What do make of the characters' facial expressions? Does any one stand out to you, or do you feel they all look the same?

Once again it's that elf. He's quite vulcan-like IMO.... Rivendell elves seem to have that effect -__-

3. What do their faces reveal to you? Surprise? Disbelief? Doubt? Something else?

I think Gandalf's looks Ultra-stressed to be honest, as if he's been working himself up throughout the council, and has tried to keep him emotions at bay as much as he can, and then swivels round to Frodo, whilst still having that aura. He's as tense as a tightrope. The others are similarly tense.

4. Any other comments on the characters, the color in this shot, the lower angle (Frodo's POV, supposedly)?


Well it's muddy which I don't like. Myabe it isn't Frodo at all.. dunno




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