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Calmandcloudless
Lorien
May 4 2012, 5:34pm
Post #176 of 201
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But Eowyn belongs to a different society...
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...and, in many ways, a less idealized one than those of the elves. I think I can see where you're coming from, but the existence of female warriors in other societies and situations doesn't, for me, diminish the revolutionary nature of Eowyn's actions in LOTR.
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Lacrimae Rerum
Grey Havens
May 4 2012, 5:38pm
Post #177 of 201
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Whether it is a matter of course is not the issue though surely?
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Most of the characters in the story do not represent the majority. On that basis we should object to Bilbos place in the story too most of all.
LR
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triptrap
Lorien
May 4 2012, 5:39pm
Post #178 of 201
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Eowyn is special simply because of her actions. She kills the witchking, she loves aragorn, she marries faramir. It doesn't matter if there were other women who could do this. She did it and that makes her special
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Darkstone
Immortal
May 4 2012, 5:41pm
Post #179 of 201
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Years past there were lots of people with the Blood of Numenor.
Similarly, in the past there were lots of Shieldmaidens, "many fair and valiant women ... named in the songs of Rohan that still remember the North."
Both are unique in the present World of Men.
In the World of Elves, however....
******************************************
The audacious proposal stirred his heart. And the stirring became a song, and it mingled with the songs of Gil-galad and Celebrian, and with those of Feanor and Fingon. The song-weaving created a larger song, and then another, until suddenly it was as if a long forgotten memory woke and for one breathtaking moment the Music of the Ainur revealed itself in all glory. He opened his lips to sing and share this song. Then he realized that the others would not understand. Not even Mithrandir given his current state of mind. So he smiled and simply said "A diversion.”
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RosieLass
Valinor
May 4 2012, 6:20pm
Post #180 of 201
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Tolkien wrote the character of Bilbo.
He did not write the character of a female fighting elf.
The fact that he didn't *not* write her is irrelevant.
It is always those with the fewest sensible things to say who make the loudest noise in saying them. --Precious Ramotswe (Alexander McCall Smith)
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RosieLass
Valinor
May 4 2012, 6:21pm
Post #181 of 201
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...that Tauriel runs the risk of being so "special" that she distracts from the story of Bilbo and the dwarves.
That's really all I'm saying.
It is always those with the fewest sensible things to say who make the loudest noise in saying them. --Precious Ramotswe (Alexander McCall Smith)
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Lacrimae Rerum
Grey Havens
May 4 2012, 6:37pm
Post #182 of 201
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You were saying that female elf warriors were not statistically typical (a point with which I would agree).
I was then pointing out that almost all the characters are not statistically typical representatives of their race/sex, Bilbo being one example.
I was therefore suggesting that not being a typical representative of one's race/sex therefore does not seem to be a problem for our acceptance of other characters so I am not sure why we should need to make an exception in this case.
LR
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Darkstone
Immortal
May 4 2012, 6:53pm
Post #183 of 201
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Much like the Annatar fight in ROTK would have takien away from Frodo and Sam.
And I'd be very upset if she had anything to do with helping Bilbo escape, or in convincing him to turn over the Arkenstone (as has suggested previously as good ideas.)
I'm hoping though it's merely a way to personalize the Elves, much like, say, the mother Morwen in TTT.
It seems to me some Elves are going to have to be personalized just due to cinematic neccessity. But as you say, the risk is making them too special. It's not unknown for a minor character to steal a movie. Such as, say, Jack Nicolson (Easy Rider), Robert Duvall (Apocalypse Now), Angelina Jolie (Sky Captain and the World of Tomorrow), Joe Pesci (anything), or Jar Jar Binks (The Phantom Menace). Sometimes it's not pretty.
******************************************
The audacious proposal stirred his heart. And the stirring became a song, and it mingled with the songs of Gil-galad and Celebrian, and with those of Feanor and Fingon. The song-weaving created a larger song, and then another, until suddenly it was as if a long forgotten memory woke and for one breathtaking moment the Music of the Ainur revealed itself in all glory. He opened his lips to sing and share this song. Then he realized that the others would not understand. Not even Mithrandir given his current state of mind. So he smiled and simply said "A diversion.”
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dormouse
Half-elven
May 4 2012, 7:05pm
Post #184 of 201
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to
And I'd be very upset if she had anything to do with helping Bilbo escape, or in convincing him to turn over the Arkenstone (as has suggested previously as good ideas.)
and
I'm hoping though it's merely a way to personalize the Elves, much like, say, the mother Morwen in TTT
and
It seems to me some Elves are going to have to be personalized just due to cinematic neccessity.
It really depends on how they approach it. If one of the elves who captures the dwarves in Mirkwood just happens to female and this is simply accepted without fanfare or fuss - for all we know, she may not be the only female in the King's guard, just the only speaking one - I can't see much of a problem. They may not even use her name - any more than the names 'Lurtz' and 'Morwen' were used in the film. They need elf characters - if that's all she is, I can't see anything wrong with it.
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RosieLass
Valinor
May 4 2012, 7:13pm
Post #185 of 201
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It's not her statistically-not-typicalness that I'm struggling with, except insofar as it becomes a distraction to the story that the film should be emphasizing, which is Bilbo's development.
It's the necessity of inserting her into the story when Tolkien didn't feel the need to have her there that rankles.
She may turn out to be a blip on the radar and nothing more. But as I said in a post above (below?), she risks being so "not typical" that people give her more attention than the role deserves, precisely because of her "not typicalness."
You mention other characters that we have accepted. To which other characters are you referring?
It is always those with the fewest sensible things to say who make the loudest noise in saying them. --Precious Ramotswe (Alexander McCall Smith)
(This post was edited by RosieLass on May 4 2012, 7:14pm)
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RosieLass
Valinor
May 4 2012, 7:15pm
Post #186 of 201
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And if that's all she is, I don't have a problem with that, either.
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Time will tell.
As I said, I will know at approximately noon on 12/14/2012.
Or in 2013... 
It is always those with the fewest sensible things to say who make the loudest noise in saying them. --Precious Ramotswe (Alexander McCall Smith)
(This post was edited by RosieLass on May 4 2012, 7:16pm)
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Darkstone
Immortal
May 4 2012, 7:27pm
Post #187 of 201
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And:
"[The names of the Bucklanders] had a style that we should perhaps feel vaguely to be 'Celtic'."
-Appendix F, On Translation
******************************************
The audacious proposal stirred his heart. And the stirring became a song, and it mingled with the songs of Gil-galad and Celebrian, and with those of Feanor and Fingon. The song-weaving created a larger song, and then another, until suddenly it was as if a long forgotten memory woke and for one breathtaking moment the Music of the Ainur revealed itself in all glory. He opened his lips to sing and share this song. Then he realized that the others would not understand. Not even Mithrandir given his current state of mind. So he smiled and simply said "A diversion.”
(This post was edited by Darkstone on May 4 2012, 7:36pm)
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Lacrimae Rerum
Grey Havens
May 4 2012, 7:32pm
Post #188 of 201
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I don't have an issue with the view that if she is not in the text she should not be in the film. it's not a view I share but it is a position which makes sense (and is not based on her sex!)
Who knows how the character will play out. Might be dreadful but for me its far far too early to worry about that. We havent even clapped eyes on her. I would generally think that, given the opportunities for the elves in general to be involved, we are only talking about a relatively small part.
The other chracters were the other characters from the text ( most of them really)
LR
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Otaku-sempai
Immortal
May 4 2012, 7:50pm
Post #189 of 201
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There is arguably at least one female character in 'The Hobbit'
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Not a lead character, but the first giant spider Bilbo slew in Mirkwood (alone, without assistance) is identified as female in early drafts. While that identifiction is dropped in the published version(s), it is not contradicted.
"Darkness beyond blackest pitch, deeper than the deepest night!
King of Darkness, who shines like gold upon the Sea of Chaos.
I call upon thee and swear myself to thee!
Let the fools who stand before me be destroyed by the power you and I possess!"
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Darkstone
Immortal
May 4 2012, 7:55pm
Post #190 of 201
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If Tolkien is gender neutral about someone you can't necessarily assume they are male.
******************************************
The audacious proposal stirred his heart. And the stirring became a song, and it mingled with the songs of Gil-galad and Celebrian, and with those of Feanor and Fingon. The song-weaving created a larger song, and then another, until suddenly it was as if a long forgotten memory woke and for one breathtaking moment the Music of the Ainur revealed itself in all glory. He opened his lips to sing and share this song. Then he realized that the others would not understand. Not even Mithrandir given his current state of mind. So he smiled and simply said "A diversion.”
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Otaku-sempai
Immortal
May 4 2012, 7:57pm
Post #191 of 201
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Even though the captain was unnamed in the book...
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Tolkien did identify him as male. I don't have a problem with the gender switch, I just wanted to set the record straight. Hopefully, Tauriel won't steal the spotlight from the major characters of the film(s).
"Darkness beyond blackest pitch, deeper than the deepest night!
King of Darkness, who shines like gold upon the Sea of Chaos.
I call upon thee and swear myself to thee!
Let the fools who stand before me be destroyed by the power you and I possess!"
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Otaku-sempai
Immortal
May 4 2012, 8:06pm
Post #192 of 201
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The people of Middle-earth need to be fleshed-out for the film audience
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Tolkien wrote the character of Bilbo.
He did not write the character of a female fighting elf.
The fact that he didn't *not* write her is irrelevant.
In a book, one can get away with ignoring the vast majority of people encountered by the main character(s) throughout the narrative. Film is a visual medium and the audience needs to see more of the story's environment--including the people that the character(s) interact with or even just pass in the street. It also pays to give the viewers a clearer view of the cultures encountered by the protagonist and other main characters.
"Darkness beyond blackest pitch, deeper than the deepest night!
King of Darkness, who shines like gold upon the Sea of Chaos.
I call upon thee and swear myself to thee!
Let the fools who stand before me be destroyed by the power you and I possess!"
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RosieLass
Valinor
May 4 2012, 8:09pm
Post #193 of 201
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And if you do it with "minor" characters like Alfrid and Morwen and Lurtz, then I'm all for it.
I just hope that Tauriel turns out to be as minor as the rest of them.
It is always those with the fewest sensible things to say who make the loudest noise in saying them. --Precious Ramotswe (Alexander McCall Smith)
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Symbelmine
Rohan
May 4 2012, 8:45pm
Post #194 of 201
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she is a big shot in the army so she is apparently a soldier.
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JWPlatt
Grey Havens
May 5 2012, 12:06am
Post #195 of 201
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...the film makers have shown their interest to court another demographic... Right. Some of the arguments in these many pages are going into areas that strain to justify the real objection which is:
The cynical addition of a female character for the purpose of demographics. In other words, marketing. In other other words, profit.
And perhaps we fear that the audience will see the character for what she is, that she is being used, and that such response will cheapen the movie for all of us in retrospect. So that's the fear, rational or not. And as at least one of us is fond of saying, time will tell.
(This post was edited by JWPlatt on May 5 2012, 12:11am)
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Beutlin
Rivendell
May 5 2012, 2:25am
Post #196 of 201
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Films like these are mainly made for profit...
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...and a lot of changes are made because of this. Every single blockbuster-adaptation contains such changes or focuses on parts of the story that attract a larger crowd. You have every right to detest this process but in the end all that matters is the final result. Sometimes good things come from bad things. I share your concerns, however, time will tell, if Tauriel (formerly known as Itaril) will be an annoying, presumptuous, out of place character or a positive, unobtrusive, smart addition.
By the way: why did they change her name?
Ceterum censeo montem artis magicae atrae esse delendum.
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irreality
Bree
May 5 2012, 3:04am
Post #197 of 201
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Maybe to fit the actresses's looks?
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Tauriel sounds like it fits better with an all-american girl vs. Itaril fits better a waifish Irish girl. Maybe that is just my bias, though. Since the name is made up anyway, why not?
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Arwen Skywalker
Lorien
May 5 2012, 4:34am
Post #198 of 201
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It was originally owned by Idril. While this backstory is fanfiction by PJ and Co., there is evidence that Idril was a warrior in The Book of Lost Tales when she fights Maeglin "like a tigress." Not sure why that part was cut from the Sil, but I can totally imagine Idril using Hadhafang to protect little Earendil. And I would guess that this version of the Fall of Gondolin was probably the inspiration for the sword.
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geordie
Tol Eressea
May 5 2012, 9:16am
Post #199 of 201
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- and, there's a name I'm not familiar with; Rose Fyleman - I must read further.
Going way off topic, and on a purely personal level - something which I've been mulling over for some time now is the amount of time and energy I've put in over the last 30 -odd years into Tolkien and all that, or, 'the Hobby' as I call it. As I said in my earlier post, I cobbled those facts together from memory, at my workbench during my lunchbreak at work. I sometimes wonder whether such depth of knowledge of an arcane subject is something to be admired, or pitied! 
To illustrate my point - another great interest of mine is Sherlock Holmes. I've just bought a dvd of the second series of the BBC TV series 'Sherlock', which stars Benedict Cumberbatch and Martin Freeman as Holmes and Watson, and adapted for TV by Mark Gatiss and Steven Moffat. In the documentary on disk 2, Moffat describes the work as 'our hobby'.
I was also struck by a remark by Martin Freeman - speaking of the series creators' obsession with Conan Doyle's stories, and their delight in every detail of the sets, he says '...When you meet people like Steven and Mark, who know it probably better than they know their own families, that's a whole new level of knowledge about a writer and their work'. And that's the nagging thought which has been at the back of my mind for some time now - I do know more about 'the Hobby'; more about Tolkien's life and works than I do about my own family history. Blimey! As I said earlier; is this level of obsession, this immersion in a hobby, something to be admired, or pitied? I don't know.
Anyway; way too off-topic. I suppose I shall now get on with what I usually do when thinking along these lines - get out the books and start reading again. I'll start with Hammond and Scull. Fancy my not knowing about Rose Fyleman - I've missed a lot, seemingly.
(This post was edited by geordie on May 5 2012, 9:17am)
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Lacrimae Rerum
Grey Havens
May 5 2012, 10:15am
Post #200 of 201
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I'm not great with the big words.
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Does that mean you think they want as many people as possible to like the films?
LR
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