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SCOD: Enter Arwen
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GoodGuyA
Lorien

Apr 10 2012, 10:41am

Post #1 of 33 (1242 views)
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SCOD: Enter Arwen Can't Post

My deepest apologies for the late one! Completely slipped my mind, which is funny because I was certainly on here yesterday. Anyways, without further adieu, let's kick it off.



Full-sized image can be found HERE. This is the moment where Arwen finds, "A ranger caught off his guard".

1. This scene has stirred a lot of controversy for being what most consider to be an out of character moment for both parties involved. However, seeing past that initial adaptation change, does this scene fit in the movie's interpretation of Arwen?

2. Does this scene represent any thematic importance between the Aragon/Arwen relationship?

3. Did you feel tension during this scene as Aragorn and Sam searched for the weed that might help Frodo stay off the Ringwraith's power longer?

4. Why do you think Arwen snuck up on him in the first place?



One Ringer
Tol Eressea


Apr 10 2012, 2:05pm

Post #2 of 33 (461 views)
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Youth, [In reply to] Can't Post

One might say this moment is an example (if only the only one) of Aragorn and Arwen's playful nature in their relationship, almost like a young couple that might tease each other and such. In those terms I don't think this is out of context; it's a good way to establish the light-heartedness between them, even in times of haste and anxiety. On top of it all, I'm pretty sure this is the only time we see Aragorn "caught off his guard", so it's safe to say how his senses behave with Arwen's presence - that or he might've just been really concerned with helping Frodo at the time. Laugh

And don't fret over running late. You have all week to make your posts. Smile An excellent start, I might add!

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GoodGuyA
Lorien

Apr 11 2012, 1:59am

Post #3 of 33 (407 views)
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I don't know... [In reply to] Can't Post

While the intent was certainly there, every time I watch this scene it merely confuses me and I'm even a fan of the romance in general. It just feels like there would have been some other scene of them acting in this manner elsewhere, maybe even in future flashbacks, but this seems to be the only occurrence. The look on Viggo's face is sort of confusing too, and the scene is so quick that there's no space to feel tension. Then again, the scene is quick and relatively harmless but I wanted to draw attention to it because it always draws my attention.


Xanaseb
Tol Eressea


Apr 11 2012, 1:34pm

Post #4 of 33 (363 views)
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hmmmm.... [In reply to] Can't Post

I'm not quite sure myself as to what to think of this scene....but in answer to your Qs:

1. This scene has stirred a lot of controversy for being what most consider to be an out of character moment for both parties involved. However, seeing past that initial adaptation change, does this scene fit in the movie's interpretation of Arwen?

One Ringer's musings is pretty much what I think too. I mean it's pretty darn blatant that Arwen is not -actually- threatening Aragorn in any real way LOL. . . . that would be bizarre.

2. Does this scene represent any thematic importance between the Aragon/Arwen relationship?

Arwen (film Arwen anyway) I personally think is a character with some fieriness to her, and she's not afraid to fight/face evil as shown by her deliverance of Frodo, and her challenge to the Nazgul at the ford etc. But she never shows any violent, cruel or harsh actions towards Aragorn . . . so I can't see how this has any symbolism. Maybe in that their relationship has negative side effects to themselves??

3. Did you feel tension during this scene as Aragorn and Sam searched for the weed that might help Frodo stay off the Ringwraith's power longer?

I did quite a bit yes. worked very well IMO, then the sense of great calm and relief when Arwen appears

4. Why do you think Arwen snuck up on him in the first place?


Accident??Wink unlikely. Maybe as they would be very wary, so coming on suddenly would be better... ... .um .... does that make any sense? LOL maybe not..

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Nuradar
Rohan


Apr 11 2012, 2:26pm

Post #5 of 33 (398 views)
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Many sides [In reply to] Can't Post

1. This scene has stirred a lot of controversy for being what most consider to be an out of character moment for both parties involved. However, seeing past that initial adaptation change, does this scene fit in the movie's interpretation of Arwen?

I think it does. Movie Arwen is portrayed as a strong, yet sensitive and vulnerable elf. I like when we're shown different sides to characters. Nobody is just "strong" or "stubborn" or "wise". Each of us possesses many qualities, and movies characters should be the same.

2. Does this scene represent any thematic importance between the Aragon/Arwen relationship?

It shows (to me) that they know each other very well and there is definitely some history there. As for thematic, not sure. All I know from this scene is that they know each other very well.

3. Did you feel tension during this scene as Aragorn and Sam searched for the weed that might help Frodo stay off the Ringwraith's power longer?

Definitely! What if they didn't find it!? Would he have died?

4. Why do you think Arwen snuck up on him in the first place?

She was already being cautious of other things, such as the Nazgul and maybe even Gollum (not sure if she knew at this point that he was free).


Although I was disappointed at not seeing Glorfindel, I really like this introduction to Arwen. She's strong, yet sensitive and caring for Frodo in the next scene.

Nuradar



elevorn
Lorien


Apr 11 2012, 7:27pm

Post #6 of 33 (358 views)
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Movie Arwen [In reply to] Can't Post

When I first saw the movie I was quite unhappy about Arwen's adventurous streak here and the fact that they gave her a sword and all that. I don't quite remember why though, i was working on my undergrad at the time so maybe I was just having a bad day in senior thesis writing or whatever. Over time however, movie Arwen has grown on me and I think the scene works well. There is good tension and a nice introduction to their being something between Aragorn and her. I do think her elvish as she puts Frodo on the horse is atrocious, but oh well no one is perfect, not even Liv Tyler.

As far as to why she snuck up on him I simple figured she wanted to surprise him and kind of play with him for moment, show him that she can be dangerous like a ranger too. Kind of a tongue in cheek, now take me in the bushes moment. Idk, maybe I took that one a bit far, its been a long day and I still have more to go.

"clever hobbits to climb so high!"


elevorn
Lorien


Apr 11 2012, 7:28pm

Post #7 of 33 (349 views)
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and the link did not work for me [In reply to] Can't Post

 

"clever hobbits to climb so high!"


Magpie
Immortal


Apr 11 2012, 9:35pm

Post #8 of 33 (355 views)
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try this link: [In reply to] Can't Post

http://www.framecaplib.com/...es/fotr/fotr0586.htm


GoodGuyA, for the Frame Cap Library site, you have to link to the page that has text on it. The site has anti-hotlinking software in play that prevents a link leading directly to the image alone from working. You can click on the image as shown on the page I linked to and show the image alone. But you can't link to it... if you catch the difference.

It's not that you were hotlinking. It's just that the anti-hotllinking software doesn't determine intent. The image may show up with the link you used if one has previously viewed the image because that puts the image onto your harddrive in your brower's cache file.

All that is overkill for what you need to know: only link to the page that has text. :-)


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Harold.of.Whoa
Rivendell


Apr 12 2012, 3:58pm

Post #9 of 33 (335 views)
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Sword play [In reply to] Can't Post

 
1. This scene has stirred a lot of controversy for being what most consider to be an out of character moment for both parties involved. However, seeing past that initial adaptation change, does this scene fit in the movie's interpretation of Arwen?

It fits well enough, although I wonder how she ended up alone on such a dangerous mission, given Elrond's hyper-protective attitude towards her. I am deeply grateful that plans to have her fighting at Helm's Deep were abandoned.
.
2. Does this scene represent any thematic importance between the Aragon/Arwen relationship?

I enjoy puzzling out symbolism, but when I first read the question, I thought there wasn't much here. As I pondered it and tried to find something in this image, I changed my mind. I think the shot has some fun elements of foreshadowing, if you want to look at it that way. First of all, it is a marker of the fact that the character of Arwen is much changed from the book, and is no longer a passive backstory, but an active player. Arwen of the films chooses her own fate, and brings her father and Aragorn around to her plan, rather than going along with theirs. Think of Aragorn later in the trilogy. He believes Arwen is gone from his life, off to the Undying Lands, and behind him. The story of his love's peril sneaks up on him in the form Elrond bringing him a sword. (Elrond's first words at Dunharrow are "I come on behalf of one whom I love.") So, in a real sense, Aragorn is caught off his guard in RotK by the factor that his love becomes in the unfolding story.

I present this as an interesting thought, not necessarily something that was consciously intended by PJ. It would not be unprecedented in this film, however, especially given the fact that this is Arwen's introductory scene, and that she has an elevated role in Aragorn's story. The introductory scene for Boromir, with Aragorn and the Shards of Narsil, crackles with symbolism, and I have no doubt that it was intentional in that instance.

3. Did you feel tension during this scene as Aragorn and Sam searched for the weed that might help Frodo stay off the Ringwraith's power longer?

Yes, although at one point I wondered if it was just Aragorn distracting Sam so he wouldn't stress everybody else out, kind of like Donkey in Shrek.

4. Why do you think Arwen snuck up on him in the first place?

I think she was being stealthy, and that she is good at it because she is an elf. I give the Ranger a pass in this scenario, because there is just no way to avoid being vulnerable while using a torch to look for something small on the ground in the dark

Very nice selection, GoodGuy. Thanks!

PS - Does anyone find the design of Arwen's sword interesting? I'm not any kind of expert on this sort of thing, but I am fascinated by the details of armor and weapons in these movies. This one seems to have Japanese influences in it's design. Are there any other curved swords in the trilogy?


Magpie
Immortal


Apr 12 2012, 8:28pm

Post #10 of 33 (312 views)
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Arwen's sword [In reply to] Can't Post

there's apparently a whole movie-backstory on this sword which is outlined here:

http://lotr.wikia.com/wiki/Hadhafang


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Arwen's daughter
Half-elven


Apr 12 2012, 9:13pm

Post #11 of 33 (290 views)
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Curved swords [In reply to] Can't Post

I can think of a few curved blades in the films. They seem to be an elvish thing. Legolas' elvish knives are curved, as is the dagger Celeborn gives to Aragorn. The second age elves in the prologue carry some of my favorite swords that have curved blades. Also, I think Haldir's sword is curved at Helm's Deep?

I'd have to check, but I'm fairly sure some of the orcs carry crude curved blades, as well.


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(This post was edited by Arwen's daughter on Apr 12 2012, 9:16pm)


DanielLB
Immortal


Apr 12 2012, 9:16pm

Post #12 of 33 (294 views)
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Yes, Haldir's was also curved [In reply to] Can't Post

Lots of pics online. I think you got all the examples too Smile


Harold.of.Whoa
Rivendell


Apr 13 2012, 1:33am

Post #13 of 33 (266 views)
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Thanks, all. [In reply to] Can't Post

Thanks to M, AD, and DLB for the answers and link. I asked the question on impulse. Now that you mention it, in my mind's eye I can picture Haldir's sword, and some of the orc blades, including some that look like giant seam rippers. I'll have to look for Legolas' dual blades; I can't really picture them.

The Wiki article on Hadhafang raises another question: if Orcrist was Sindarin for "goblin cleaver," why the heck would they coin Hadhafang to be new Sindarin for "throng-cleaver?"

I'm not even going to get into the issue of Elrond carrying a lady's sword at the BotLA, given his corset- and tiara-wearing proclivities.


Magpie
Immortal


Apr 13 2012, 3:28am

Post #14 of 33 (305 views)
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" I'll have to look for Legolas' dual blades; I can't really picture them." [In reply to] Can't Post

what!? You don't have all the action figures to reference?

:-)


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zarabia
Grey Havens


Apr 13 2012, 6:01am

Post #15 of 33 (289 views)
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I don't think Arwen is necessarily out of character [In reply to] Can't Post

1. This scene has stirred a lot of controversy for being what most consider to be an out of character moment for both parties involved. However, seeing past that initial adaptation change, does this scene fit in the movie's interpretation of Arwen?

I think Arwen, both in the book and film, is shown as wise and knowledgeable. In the appendix somewhere it says roughly, I can't remember exactly, that Aragorn looks into her eyes and feels abashed by the wealth of knowledge and wisdom he sees there that she has gained throughout her long life. She isn't just some fair maiden or damsel in distress, she is a wise and powerful being in her own right.

2. Does this scene represent any thematic importance between the Aragon/Arwen relationship?

Yes, expanding on what I said above, I think this scene shows that Arwen is not just a prize to be won. She is his equal, and in some ways, his superior. Here, I think she is playfully demonstrating his carelessness, making it, in modern parlance, a teachable moment.

3. Did you feel tension during this scene as Aragorn and Sam searched for the weed that might help Frodo stay off the Ringwraith's power longer?

Yes. Both Aragorn's intensity and Sam's near panic were very convincing.


4. Why do you think Arwen snuck up on him in the first place?


See #2


(This post was edited by zarabia on Apr 13 2012, 6:03am)


telain
Rohan

Apr 13 2012, 2:07pm

Post #16 of 33 (276 views)
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I also missed Glorfindel... [In reply to] Can't Post

... but I am happy with how they handled Arwen.

I echo OneRinger and zarabia in many of my responses, so here's my additional thoughts...

1. This scene has stirred a lot of controversy for being what most consider to be an out of character moment for both parties involved. However, seeing past that initial adaptation change, does this scene fit in the movie's interpretation of Arwen?

I think this scene attests to the playfulness of their relationship and while there might be a valid argument for why this is not a terribly great time to be coy, I would say that sometimes a bit of humour in a dire situation is what is called for. Also, she might be gently chiding Aragorn for being a little off his game: reminding him he needs to be more careful. He cannot afford to miss anything at this time.

2. Does this scene represent any thematic importance between the Aragon/Arwen relationship?

I really like zarabia's comments here. She isn't the typical damsel in distress, just as Aragorn isn't the typical hero in many ways. To me, it shows a bit of the depth and complexity of their relationship, which is perhaps a testament to the filmmakers. Each moment on film needs to do several things at once, so the fact they can show this aspect of their relationship is admirable.

3. Did you feel tension during this scene as Aragorn and Sam searched for the weed that might help Frodo stay off the Ringwraith's power longer?

Definitely. Especially after Sam says, "Ah, it's a weed!" I can almost hear Aragorn's thoughts: "It's my special kingly healing weed, you Halfling!"

4. Why do you think Arwen snuck up on him in the first place?

Part of this answer is in #1. Additionally, she must have felt the location was secure, but wanted to warn Aragorn against any potentially false sense of security.


Arwen Skywalker
Lorien


Apr 15 2012, 4:57am

Post #17 of 33 (238 views)
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Elrond did send several riders in the book [In reply to] Can't Post

I guess the mission of finding Aragorn was so important that he decided that Arwen should be one of them. Although you are right that it's not consistent with his over-protective attitude.


zarabia
Grey Havens


Apr 15 2012, 7:12am

Post #18 of 33 (277 views)
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You and Harold are right about Elrond's protective tendencies, however... [In reply to] Can't Post

Arwen may have gone on her own accord without his knowledge or permission. She is, after all, the descendant of Luthien and Elwing; she's no shrinking violet.


SirDennisC
Half-elven


Apr 15 2012, 1:27pm

Post #19 of 33 (224 views)
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Yes, Elrond gave her a sword. [In reply to] Can't Post

(in the movies) It would only make sense that he expected her to use it at some point.


Harold.of.Whoa
Rivendell


Apr 16 2012, 12:54am

Post #20 of 33 (227 views)
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Maybe... [In reply to] Can't Post

I wrote this somewhere else, but I like to think Elrond sent her out with an escort, the same wimpy elf who was supposed to take her to the Havens, and she just gave him the slip and struck out on her own. (Take her by the safest road...DOH!)


Alyianna Baggins
Bree

Apr 16 2012, 2:39pm

Post #21 of 33 (188 views)
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My Thoughts [In reply to] Can't Post

I have always loved this scene. :P But now that I think of it...I don't think that Aragorn should have been caught off his guard. That certainly wouldn't happen in the books (and no, I'm not really that much of a book purist).

I felt some tension...but another thing...Sam wouldn't have shown Aragorn the "weed" that would help Frodo...Aragorn would have been able to find the athelas (aka King's Foil) himself.

Why did Arwen sneak up on Aragorn in the first place? To play a joke, most likely. :P

ďI made a promise, Mr. Frodo. A promise. Donít you leave him, Samwise Gamgee. And I donít mean to. I donít mean to.Ē


Alyianna Baggins
Bree

Apr 16 2012, 2:41pm

Post #22 of 33 (193 views)
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Special Kingly Healing Weed [In reply to] Can't Post

"It's my special kingly healing weed, you Halfling!"

XD Fool of a...Gamgee. :P

ďI made a promise, Mr. Frodo. A promise. Donít you leave him, Samwise Gamgee. And I donít mean to. I donít mean to.Ē


Shelob'sAppetite
Valinor

Apr 17 2012, 3:52am

Post #23 of 33 (215 views)
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This scene is a violation of Checkov's rule [In reply to] Can't Post

If you show a gun in the first act, you must fire it by the last.

This is the only scene where Arwen is portrayed as a sword-wielding warrior elf of the wilderness. There is no follow-up at all.

As such, it's a bit jarring and out of character. Since PJ and company decided to axe the Arwen at Helm's Deep scenes, they should have revisited this one.


DanielLB
Immortal


Apr 17 2012, 7:12am

Post #24 of 33 (192 views)
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Huh? [In reply to] Can't Post

I can see what you're getting at - but do you really expect a lone elf to go riding off into the wilderness (with all sorts of beasts lurking about) and not take a weapon? I'm sure Arwen would have needed to learn how to defend herself with what happened to Celebrian.

I don't think it is jarring out, since if it were me, I would take a gun rather than a sword, knowing the Ringwraiths were abroad.


GoodGuyA
Lorien

Apr 17 2012, 11:53am

Post #25 of 33 (199 views)
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I understand what you're getting at... [In reply to] Can't Post

But at the same time, how can you not expect anyone to go into the beyond completely unarmed? The scene never focused on the sword itself, save for that shot, and you could say that the payoff was her holding her own at the ford even though she didn't have to strictly use it. I don't think every single piece you put on a film must be explore. Just think about the many different vistas we pass in Middle-Earth that aren't explicitly stated in the film but make the world seem so much larger.

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