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Gandalf and Narya
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Nightingale
Rohan


Apr 10 2012, 10:19am

Post #1 of 28 (1055 views)
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Gandalf and Narya Can't Post

Hi all! I have a question, and am hoping that some of you knowledgeable RR peeps will be able to give me the answer. Please bear with me, as my knowledge of information outside what is presented in the main text of Lord of the Rings is sketchy, and even there, I can't remember everything (shock horror Evil)...
If Frodo was able to sense Galadriel's possession of Nenya, why could he not tell that Gandalf had Narya (which I believe was given to him by Cirdan)? Is this because either Gandalf did not wear his ring, or because Frodo could only see Nenya due to the fact that he was a ring bearer and Galadriel allowed him to see it, or is there another explanation altogether? I hope this makes sense, and thanks in advance Smile




"You can never get a cup of tea large enough or a book long enough to suit me" - C. S. Lewis


DanielLB
Immortal


Apr 10 2012, 10:28am

Post #2 of 28 (564 views)
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The only explanation I can think of is [In reply to] Can't Post

because Galadriel chose to reveal Nenya, whereas Gandalf chose not to disclose Narya.
Neither Gandalf or Elrond ever exposed to Frodo or the rest of the Fellowship that they too were Ring-bearers (not until the Grey Havens anyway). In contrast, Galadriel chose to let Frodo know she was the keeper of Nenya. She'd even said that Sauron suspected that she was hiding one the rings. Could Frodo have, therefore, "sensed" that Gandalf hid Narya? Well, Frodo only ever used the ring to become invisible - he wasn't using the Ring to it's full potential. He never really attempted such things. Likewise, if the 3 Rings were hidden from Sauron and he never really knew where they were, I am sure it would have been reasonable to suggest that hiding Narya from Frodo would have also been fairly easy (Gandalf never openly wore it, and Frodo hadn't mastered the ring)


GAndyalf
Valinor

Apr 10 2012, 3:19pm

Post #3 of 28 (538 views)
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The answer you seek... [In reply to] Can't Post

is best described in the scene you reference:
Here are what I believe are some clues. When Frodo offers Galadriel the Ring, part of her answer is: "You begin to see with a keen eye." This implies to me that when Frodo was in Rivendell and Moria his wisdom was not yet to where he could perceive the Rings of Power (and this perception of Nenya was not the Lady's doing at all but Frodo's slow growth in understanding and the Ring's influence slowly growing upon him).
And at the end of the Mirror, "I would ask one thing before we go,' said Frodo, 'a thing which I often meant to ask Gandalf in Rivendell. I am permitted to wear the One Ring: why cannot I see all the others and know the thoughts of those that wear them?"
'You have not tried,' she said, 'Only thrice have you set the Ring upon your finger since you knew what you possessed. Do not try! It would destroy you. Did not Gandalf tell you that the rings give power according to the measure of each possessor? Before you could use that power you would need to become far stronger, and to train your will to the domination of others. Yet even so, as Ringbearer and as one that had borne iton finger and seen that which is hidden, your sight is grown keener. You have perceived my thought more clearly than many that are accounted wise. You saw the Eye of him that holds the Seven and the Nine. And did you not see and recognize the ring upon my finger? Did you see my ring?' she asked turning again to Sam."

Galadriel pretty clearly credits Frodo's growing wisdom and the power of the Ring working through him as the reason here, in my opinion.

"Be good, be careful, have fun, don't get arrested!"
---Marcia Michelle Alexander Hamilton, 7 Nov 1955 - 19 Nov 2009


DanielLB
Immortal


Apr 10 2012, 3:26pm

Post #4 of 28 (466 views)
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Thanks for that GAndyalf, don't have the book handy / [In reply to] Can't Post

 


GAndyalf
Valinor

Apr 10 2012, 3:28pm

Post #5 of 28 (487 views)
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I don't have all my books handy... [In reply to] Can't Post

But what few I have I put to good use! Smile

"Be good, be careful, have fun, don't get arrested!"
---Marcia Michelle Alexander Hamilton, 7 Nov 1955 - 19 Nov 2009


Nightingale
Rohan


Apr 10 2012, 3:58pm

Post #6 of 28 (480 views)
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Thank you to you both! [In reply to] Can't Post

That was really helpful. Thanks also for excusing my very sketchy memory of the text. I should have known that Tolkien would have provided the answers if only I had looked for them! Smile

Of course, I forgot that after Rivendell, Frodo does not see Gandalf for a long while, so no chance of using any new 'wisdom' he may have gained.




"You can never get a cup of tea large enough or a book long enough to suit me" - C. S. Lewis


GAndyalf
Valinor

Apr 10 2012, 4:06pm

Post #7 of 28 (516 views)
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You're more important than the trivia... [In reply to] Can't Post

and I'm very glad you posed the question. Often I have to re-read to get a nuance and I have a pretty good memory.

Frodo wasn't travelling with Gandalf all the way to Rivendell so there was no opportunity (even had he thought of it) until then. At Rivendell there were many distractions and Frodo was recovering and visiting Bilbo (probably why he never asked Gandalf as he'd meant to). During the trip to Moria he likely was preoccupied with the trip and then in Moria Gandalf was very occupied as their guide through a dangerous and dark place. Lothlorien was likely the first opportunity for Frodo to collect his thoughts enough to wonder about it again.

"Be good, be careful, have fun, don't get arrested!"
---Marcia Michelle Alexander Hamilton, 7 Nov 1955 - 19 Nov 2009


Nightingale
Rohan


Apr 10 2012, 4:41pm

Post #8 of 28 (469 views)
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Excellent observations [In reply to] Can't Post

and I can't believe that I forgot that Gandalf and Frodo were together in Moria... that's what dissertation writing does to your brain. Crazy
These helpful responses are what makes this community so fun!




"You can never get a cup of tea large enough or a book long enough to suit me" - C. S. Lewis


GAndyalf
Valinor

Apr 10 2012, 4:43pm

Post #9 of 28 (481 views)
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Okay, since I can't PM you... [In reply to] Can't Post

what's your dissertation on? Your profile is quite mysterious! Smile

"Be good, be careful, have fun, don't get arrested!"
---Marcia Michelle Alexander Hamilton, 7 Nov 1955 - 19 Nov 2009


Nightingale
Rohan


Apr 10 2012, 5:34pm

Post #10 of 28 (454 views)
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Deliberately so.... [In reply to] Can't Post

I'm new to this whole messageboard lark, and am naturally cautious... maybe one day I will fill out my profile a bit! Since you ask, Early Modern history Smile Once I finish my degree this summer there is bound to be an off-topic celebration thread. Wink




"You can never get a cup of tea large enough or a book long enough to suit me" - C. S. Lewis


visualweasel
Rohan


Apr 10 2012, 6:44pm

Post #11 of 28 (454 views)
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Maybe Gandalf just kept his handses in his pocketses. :) // [In reply to] Can't Post

 

Jason Fisher
Author/editor of Tolkien and the Study of His Sources: Critical Essays (McFarland, 2011)
Blog: Lingwë - Musings of a Fish


The Lord of the Rings discussion 2007-2008 – The Two Towers – III.4 “Treebeard” – Part 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6
“On Fairy-stories” discussion 2008 – “Origins” – Part 1, 2, 3, 4, 5


GAndyalf
Valinor

Apr 10 2012, 7:08pm

Post #12 of 28 (443 views)
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Thank you! [In reply to] Can't Post

I understand your caution and won't invite further personal commentary (why I'd wanted to private message [PM] you) though I AM curious when "early modern" history begins. Love history myself (being naturally 'dorky') and wish you all the best! I'd encourage you to 'lurk' on the Fiesta Friday thread for awhile as that gives you a fair piece of information about a fair number of regular posters here. Or, alternatively, click on anyone's screen name and sometimes people put up profiles while others put very little (like you!) Both are just fine an' peachy, my mentioning this is more to invite you to feel a bit at home here (as you can tell I've been here awhile).
Whatever your choice, success to you!
---GAndyalf

"Be good, be careful, have fun, don't get arrested!"
---Marcia Michelle Alexander Hamilton, 7 Nov 1955 - 19 Nov 2009


Nightingale
Rohan


Apr 11 2012, 8:30am

Post #13 of 28 (450 views)
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" Now what do I have in my pockets? [In reply to] Can't Post

String, knife, oh yes, and a ring of power....." Laugh




"You can never get a cup of tea large enough or a book long enough to suit me" - C. S. Lewis


Nightingale
Rohan


Apr 11 2012, 11:20am

Post #14 of 28 (438 views)
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Thanks. c.1500-1750 // [In reply to] Can't Post

 




"You can never get a cup of tea large enough or a book long enough to suit me" - C. S. Lewis


GAndyalf
Valinor

Apr 11 2012, 2:30pm

Post #15 of 28 (562 views)
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Late Rennaissance/early Industrial period... [In reply to] Can't Post

one of the most interesting times in human history in terms of art, technology, philosophy, science, and politics.
Thank you kindly for sharing and I wish you all skill in your exams! (I don't need to wish you 'luck' because I trust in your knowledge more than to invoke the random! Tongue )

"Be good, be careful, have fun, don't get arrested!"
---Marcia Michelle Alexander Hamilton, 7 Nov 1955 - 19 Nov 2009


telain
Rohan

Apr 13 2012, 1:45pm

Post #16 of 28 (334 views)
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I understand... [In reply to] Can't Post

...posting the link to my Master's thesis was one of the hardest things I ever did.

Good luck on the completion of your dissertation -- we look forward to the virtual celebration!


Nightingale
Rohan


Apr 13 2012, 2:28pm

Post #17 of 28 (343 views)
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Thank you! [In reply to] Can't Post

I printed my first full draft today. All done at 9371 words. Nice to feel it in hard copy! Congratulations on the masters. If I do well, that will be the next step for me. Smile




"You can never get a cup of tea large enough or a book long enough to suit me" - C. S. Lewis


DanielLB
Immortal


Apr 13 2012, 2:34pm

Post #18 of 28 (331 views)
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Is the word limit 10,000? [In reply to] Can't Post

I'm rubbish at sticking to word counts, I always go over - I spend the same amount of time cutting out words as I do when writing them!

All the stress will soon be over (just don't decide to do a PhD Wink)


Nightingale
Rohan


Apr 13 2012, 2:50pm

Post #19 of 28 (323 views)
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No, 9,000 [In reply to] Can't Post

and 10% allowed either way. I often go over too Wink Despite repeated advice to the contrary, I have a suspicion I might want to try a phd. Provided I get the top third of a 2:1 I need for the masters.




"You can never get a cup of tea large enough or a book long enough to suit me" - C. S. Lewis


DanielLB
Immortal


Apr 13 2012, 2:55pm

Post #20 of 28 (351 views)
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That's lucky [In reply to] Can't Post

My MSc dissertation was 15,000 words with no 10%. I had to cut out 5000 words in the end....!

I'm sure you will do great Nightingale Smile I'm only 6/7 months into my PhD so can't give you much advice (+ it's a science one), but if you ever need info or anything, let me know Smile


(This post was edited by DanielLB on Apr 13 2012, 2:56pm)


ElendilTheShort
Gondor

Apr 13 2012, 7:28pm

Post #21 of 28 (339 views)
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Thanks for that text GAndyalf [In reply to] Can't Post

when I haven't read something for a while it is good to be reminded. What Galadriel says here explains so much about the One Ring, not just in answer to the OP but others aspects of it as well. It is a passage that could be referred back to in so many instances for questions about the One Ring.


GAndyalf
Valinor

Apr 13 2012, 8:58pm

Post #22 of 28 (327 views)
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I quite agree... [In reply to] Can't Post

The reason(s) this passage stays fairly close for me is even upon my first reading Galadriel went straight to my heart and remains there. I hung on her every word and deed carefully. It is my opinion that in nothing did Mr Jackson "miss the mark" more than in his treatment of the Lady at the mirror. But back to your observation yes, it is perhaps the single most instructive passage Tolkien wrote in or out of the book about not only the One, but the Rings of Power in general. It also, in my opinion, is what makes Tolkien's tale about this insidious ring far more "real" than any of the copycat tales (Shannara, Potter, et al) since then that have tried to use a "thing that is missing" from their dark lords to make the protagonists' cause have hope.

"Be good, be careful, have fun, don't get arrested!"
---Marcia Michelle Alexander Hamilton, 7 Nov 1955 - 19 Nov 2009


ElendilTheShort
Gondor

Apr 13 2012, 11:04pm

Post #23 of 28 (342 views)
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With such reverence [In reply to] Can't Post

for Galadriel you should rename your forum self Gimli. What I like about Tolkien's writing, and this passage is a perfect example, he explains things without making you feel like he is explaining it. He imparts the information in complete context with the events or people in the story, whereas some story tellers have passages of explanation that do not seem to "fit into" the storey and seem out of place and external to the storey.


grammaboodawg
Immortal


Apr 15 2012, 5:02pm

Post #24 of 28 (291 views)
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I also think that [In reply to] Can't Post

Galadriel was testing Frodo (which she admits) and allowed him to realize her Ring. He didn't sense it right away... not until this time at the mirror. If she didn't want to reveal it openly, she could have hidden it from Frodo just as effectively as she had done with Sauron... even though she "says" to him that it couldn't be hidden from the bearer of the One Ring. I think someone with the power to bring throw down the walls of Dol Guldur certainly could protect the presence of her Ring if she wanted to ;)

Frodo didn't sense Elrond's Vilya or Gandalf's Narya, either; but I completely agree that his abilities as a Ring-bearer were growing.


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I really need these new films to take me back to, and not re-introduce me to, that magical world.




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grammaboodawg
Immortal


Apr 15 2012, 5:05pm

Post #25 of 28 (308 views)
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Agreed. I had the same thoughts :) // [In reply to] Can't Post

 


sample

I really need these new films to take me back to, and not re-introduce me to, that magical world.




TORn's Observations Lists
Unused Scenes


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