|
|
 |
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Delrond
Nargothrond
Apr 9 2012, 4:45pm
Post #1 of 27
(2659 views)
Shortcut
|
|
Dragons in the 2nd Age.
|
Can't Post
|
|
In my effort to try figuring out when Smaug was born, it has led me to other thoughts along the way. For starters, it was stated that Smaug was already centuries old when he attacked Dale and claimed the Lonely Mountain. How many centuries did he dwell in the Northern Waste? How long do dragons live? Could Smaug have been alive during the Last Alliance? During the 2nd Age, Gandalf indicated that dragons destroyed 4 of the Dwarven rings, which was prior to the Last Alliance. Now when Smaug was killed, Gandalf was relieved; he believed Smaug would have almost certainly come under Sauron's power and destroyed the elven strongholds of Rivendell and Mirkwood.
This brings me to the following: If dragons were present in the 2nd Age, and Sauron would have enslaved Smaug had he lived, why is there no mention of dragons in the Last Alliance? One would think Sauron's power was greater at the end of the 2nd Age than it ever was at the end of the 3rd Age.
Any comments would be greatly appreciated.
A few harmless flakes working together can unleash an avalanche of destruction.
|
|
|
PhantomS
Nargothrond
Apr 9 2012, 5:10pm
Post #2 of 27
(2313 views)
Shortcut
|
there were certainly a lot of Dragons in the second and third Ages- the poor Dwarves had to move house several times because of cold-drakes, and feuded with the Eotheod over Scatha's hoard.
Smaug,however is named,speaking, fire-breathing and flying; said to be the last of the Great Dragons. That makes him stand out as even in the First Age winged Dragons were Morgoth's most powerful weapons and big enough to smash mountains from the sky. This implies that Smaug is more of this kind of Dragon, while other Dragons were more like evil animals (Fell Beasts etc) that couldn't talk or do complex things.
Sauron would want Smaug on his side because of that-he's intelligent, powerful and easy to keep away from Mordor as he has a spot in the North.
As for why the Elves didn't mention dragons in the Last Alliance, it was perhaps because the Dragons were just too hard for Sauron to find or tame in time- Sauron was already attacking Gondor for three years while Isildur was up North with Elrond and Elendil, and this was the army that eventually fought at Dagorllad. Living in the Northern Waste makes it impractical for Sauron to get the drakes, especially since he was actually winning until the northern allies of Men and Elves teamed up with Gondor and pushed him back. Sauron was quite powerful as he was, so there was no need for taming a potentially hard to control, majestic and intelligent animal when he had all sorts of other creatures.
In the Third Age however, the Free Peoples were weaker than before, so Gandalf was afraid that Smaug would be a tipping of the balance too far in Sauron's favor.
|
|
|
Lissuin
Doriath
Apr 9 2012, 6:59pm
Post #3 of 27
(2278 views)
Shortcut
|
|
Good question, Delrond, and thank you, PhantomS.
[In reply to]
|
Can't Post
|
|
Very interesting.
|
|
|
DanielLB
Elvenhome
Apr 9 2012, 7:13pm
Post #4 of 27
(2255 views)
Shortcut
|
I have some thoughts of some of your questions.
From the appendices:
Third Age 1999 - Thrain I founds Erebor
Third Age 2570 - Dragons reappear in the far north
Third Age 2770 - Smaug descends on Erebor
And the Battle of the Last Alliance occured ~3440 Second Age
So straight away, my first thoughts are: when did the dragons enitially appear, then disappear in the far north, how old was Smaug at the time of the Last Alliance, was Sauron actually *aware* of Smaug at this time, and how many dragons were there, that a) would have been any use in the battle, b) Sauron could have controlled and c) would have wanted to be involved? Was Smaug the last dragon?
Other thought:
Saurons attack on Gondor occured pretty quickly after the sinking of Numenor - did he have time to plan intricate negotations with dragons?
Good discussion, but all I can offer is more questions 
|
|
|
Otaku-sempai
Elvenhome
Apr 9 2012, 8:03pm
Post #5 of 27
(2247 views)
Shortcut
|
|
I don't think that Smaug could have been born in the Second Age
[In reply to]
|
Can't Post
|
|
He implies a more recent birthdate in his conversation with Bilbo:
"Revenge!" he snorted, and the light of his eyes lit the hall from floor to ceiling like scarlet lightning. "Revenge! The King under the Mountain is dead and where are his kin that dare seek revenge? Girion Lord of Dale is dead, and I have eaten his people like a wolf among sheep, and where are his sons' sons that dare approach me? I kill where I wish and none dare resist. I laid low the warriors of old and their like is not in the world today. Then I was but young and tender. Now I am old and strong, strong, strong. Thief in the Shadows!" he gloated. My armour is like tenfold shields, my teeth are swords, my claws spears, the shock of my tail a thunderbolt, my wings a hurricane, and my breath death!"
Even back in Bag End, during the Unexpected Party when the company is studying the secret entrance marked on Thrain's map:
"It may have been secret once," said Thorin, "but how do we know that it is secret any longer? Old Smaug has lived there long enough now to find out anything there is to know about those caves."
"He may -- but he can't have used it for years and years."
"Why?"
"Because it is too small. 'Five feet high the door and three may walk abreast' say the runes, but Smaug could not creep into a hole that size, not even when he was a young dragon, certainly not after devouring so many of the dwarves and men of Dale."
It seems that Smaug was still considered to be a relatively young dragon when he took over Lonely Mountain and destroyed Dale. My guess would be that he was hatched after T.A. 2000, probably closer to 2400 or 2500.
"Darkness beyond blackest pitch, deeper than the deepest night!
King of Darkness, who shines like gold upon the Sea of Chaos.
I call upon thee and swear myself to thee!
Let the fools who stand before me be destroyed by the power you and I possess!"
|
|
|
Nuumeheruvi
Nevrast
Apr 9 2012, 9:06pm
Post #6 of 27
(2262 views)
Shortcut
|
|
Morgoth made the Great dragons/Wyrms
[In reply to]
|
Can't Post
|
|
... and, if we follow the Professor's final edict that corrupted Maia cannot breed, then the Great Dragons were unique and also could not breed. This puts Smaug as a product of the First Age.
But, we don't know if the goodly Professor ever decided on whether or not Dragons were corrupted Maia in the vein of Balrogs or if they were just enhanced fell beasts or some other, lesser creature. Cold Drakes were almost certainly lesser beasts and seemed to be able to multiply in number, if slowly. The operative word here is 'seemed' to as no birth of any dragon was ever detailed in Tolkien's writings.
This is still one of the wonderful things about Lower Middle Earth - it is still quite mysterious and not all questions have answers... or ever will be answered. We will never know everything about M-E... which keeps alive in our imaginations where it is free to be more interesting than any set of pat answers could be.
|
|
|
Otaku-sempai
Elvenhome
Apr 9 2012, 9:12pm
Post #7 of 27
(2247 views)
Shortcut
|
|
Tolkien seems to contradict himself on the subject of dragons breeding
[In reply to]
|
Can't Post
|
|
He may have changed his mind more than once on the topic. I'm going with, yes, they did breed.
"Darkness beyond blackest pitch, deeper than the deepest night!
King of Darkness, who shines like gold upon the Sea of Chaos.
I call upon thee and swear myself to thee!
Let the fools who stand before me be destroyed by the power you and I possess!"
|
|
|
DanielLB
Elvenhome
Apr 9 2012, 9:16pm
Post #8 of 27
(2229 views)
Shortcut
|
Since Tolkien never explicitly wrote anything on the origin of Smaug, then all we have are very hazey ideas on his age.
As you point out, he may well be from the First Age. He could also be from the Second Age. Or even very ealy Third Age.
I'm not sure anyone can say with any certainty which Age he was born, let alone the actual year. One of Tolkien's great mysteries! After all, if we knew everything, life would be dull 
|
|
|
Delrond
Nargothrond
Apr 10 2012, 12:18am
Post #9 of 27
(2242 views)
Shortcut
|
|
Who are these warriors of old?
[In reply to]
|
Can't Post
|
|
Spefically, whose like is not in this world any more? Sounds like he is describing Men from the house of Elendil perhaps, and their elven counterparts? If not, then who? This does make me wonder if Smaug was indeed around at the end of 2nd Age. Quite young, maybe - but around?
A few harmless flakes working together can unleash an avalanche of destruction.
|
|
|
GAndyalf
Doriath
Apr 10 2012, 2:33am
Post #10 of 27
(2243 views)
Shortcut
|
that Tolkien means a warrior among the mighty among the Eldar or Edain - Beleg, Turin, or Beren. He refers to Beren and Turin specifically when talking about Sam's fight with Shelob so it's reasonable to extrapolate that he means similar warriors here.
"Be good, be careful, have fun, don't get arrested!"
---Marcia Michelle Alexander Hamilton, 7 Nov 1955 - 19 Nov 2009
|
|
|
DanielLB
Elvenhome
Apr 10 2012, 7:06am
Post #11 of 27
(2219 views)
Shortcut
|
Tolkien never says. The warriors of old could be any army/group that he fought during the first and second ages - too many battles that it could be
|
|
|
GAndyalf
Doriath
Apr 10 2012, 2:50pm
Post #13 of 27
(2211 views)
Shortcut
|
|
Delrond was asking what was meant by...
[In reply to]
|
Can't Post
|
|
'warriors' when asking, "Who are these warriors of old?"
Then in his post, "Spefically, whose like is not in this world any more? Sounds like he is describing Men from the house of Elendil perhaps, and their elven counterparts? If not, then who?"
My response is the great heroes of legend and song, probably of the 1st Age since that's who Tolkien refers to when Sam is fighting Shelob, "The blade scored it with a dreadful gash, but those hideous folds could not be pierced by any strength of men, not though Elf or Dwarf should forge the steel or the hand of Beren or of Turin wield it... Not the doughtiest soldier of old Gondor, nor the most savage Orc entrapped, had ever thus endured her..."
I think Tolkien likely meant the same warriors in response to Delrond as he refers to in this passage.
"Be good, be careful, have fun, don't get arrested!"
---Marcia Michelle Alexander Hamilton, 7 Nov 1955 - 19 Nov 2009
|
|
|
DanielLB
Elvenhome
Apr 10 2012, 3:02pm
Post #14 of 27
(2206 views)
Shortcut
|
Just wasn't sure how you connected the two passages together.
In my opinion, Tolkien could be referring to any person/group/warrior/army.
|
|
|
GAndyalf
Doriath
Apr 10 2012, 3:20pm
Post #15 of 27
(2219 views)
Shortcut
|
|
The Legendarium is fairly unified...
[In reply to]
|
Can't Post
|
|
Of course he COULD be referring to others, but I'm inclined to believe that since he's working on a unified mythology that it's likely he meant the same heroes.
"Be good, be careful, have fun, don't get arrested!"
---Marcia Michelle Alexander Hamilton, 7 Nov 1955 - 19 Nov 2009
|
|
|
DanielLB
Elvenhome
Apr 10 2012, 3:41pm
Post #17 of 27
(2196 views)
Shortcut
|
Especially since the Sil had already been drafted
|
|
|
elevorn
Menegroth
Apr 10 2012, 6:27pm
Post #18 of 27
(2207 views)
Shortcut
|
Maybe I'm hazy but how many times does Morgoth create dragons, doesn't he just do it once and let them grow in power(I say let them grow because he gets mad at Glaurung for coming out too soon). If we take that line of thinking, that Morgoth just put maiar in dragon forms once, then it stands to reason that Smaug was there for a long long time, perhaps taking place in many many battles for Morgoth, only to move far to the north when the Lord's of the west come forth, and then simply not bothering to come back into allegiance with Sauron, as he would have been on a more equal footing and not worthy of their servitude. Once Morgoth was thrown beyond the door of night the balrogs and dragons had run of whatever they wanted.
It is possible that Smaug was much lower in the hierarchy of the great dragons, yet at the same time smart enough to run away when the victory was lost.
"clever hobbits to climb so high!"
|
|
|
Otaku-sempai
Elvenhome
Apr 10 2012, 6:39pm
Post #19 of 27
(2189 views)
Shortcut
|
|
I believe that the answer is in the passage.
[In reply to]
|
Can't Post
|
|
Spefically, whose like is not in this world any more? Sounds like he is describing Men from the house of Elendil perhaps, and their elven counterparts? If not, then who? This does make me wonder if Smaug was indeed around at the end of 2nd Age. Quite young, maybe - but around?
I believe that Smaug was referring specifically (although possibly not exclusively) to the warriors he had just mentioned: King Thrain under the Mountain and Girion Lord of Dale.
"Darkness beyond blackest pitch, deeper than the deepest night!
King of Darkness, who shines like gold upon the Sea of Chaos.
I call upon thee and swear myself to thee!
Let the fools who stand before me be destroyed by the power you and I possess!"
|
|
|
GAndyalf
Doriath
Apr 10 2012, 7:12pm
Post #20 of 27
(2204 views)
Shortcut
|
though those guys were unsuccessful as dragon-slayers whereas Turin was probably the most successful (at least he killed the most powerful of all dragons).
"Be good, be careful, have fun, don't get arrested!"
---Marcia Michelle Alexander Hamilton, 7 Nov 1955 - 19 Nov 2009
|
|
|
Delrond
Nargothrond
Apr 10 2012, 9:46pm
Post #21 of 27
(2217 views)
Shortcut
|
|
Having pondered this a bit further,
[In reply to]
|
Can't Post
|
|
and many thanks for your thoughtful response, I have to point out what seems like an inconsistency: The 4 rings that were destroyed by dragons. Being hoarders by nature, it doesn't seem dragon-like to destroy 4 gold rings. Unless the dragons were instructed to do so or were promised greater bounty in exchange for their destruction. But who would have the desire, cunning and means to do this to these intelligent beings?
If the answer is Sauron, then it would follow that he did find the time to locate the dragons and come to some sort of "terms" with them. After going to such lengths, why would he not then utilize these same dragons in order to destroy the Edain and Eldar in ME, just as Morgoth had attempted in the 1st Age? It seems logical that if Sauron could have the dragons do his bidding in destroying 4 apparently ordinary rings, that they would be more than willing to crush the armies of men and elves who oversee untold treasures.
Perhaps I have overlooked something or am misinterpreting what you are saying. In either case, I'd love to hear more of your thoughts.
A few harmless flakes working together can unleash an avalanche of destruction.
|
|
|
GAndyalf
Doriath
Apr 10 2012, 10:07pm
Post #22 of 27
(2218 views)
Shortcut
|
The most obvious answer to me is that the four weren't destroyed because the dragons wanted to, but because their bearers were that tough to kill (and likely had their Rings on them when they went up against the dragons). Only the One was impervious to dragon-fire (or so we're lead to believe when we're given that bit of Ring-lore at the Council of Elrond), the others being made by Celebrimbor and the smiths of Eregion and not in the fires of Mt Doom.
To me it seems likely that the dwarfs wanted to use the power of the Seven to beat the dragons and take wealth rather than take wealth from other races (it does say that the dwarfs proved too tough for the rings of power to wholly 'crack' and thus Sauron's abandoning that part of the plan).
Which leads to the question of why is it the dwarfs were so resistant to the Seven yet couldn't be trusted with the One? Yes, the answer(s) are fairly obvious such as their greed and avarice making them more susceptible than hobbits but it still isn't fully explored given their hardiness made the experiment of the Seven a failure.
"Be good, be careful, have fun, don't get arrested!"
---Marcia Michelle Alexander Hamilton, 7 Nov 1955 - 19 Nov 2009
|
|
|
Nuumeheruvi
Nevrast
Apr 11 2012, 1:17pm
Post #23 of 27
(2172 views)
Shortcut
|
"the experiment of the Seven a failure."
Agreed! Dwarves were never a boon to M-E and only played minor roles in its history. This isn't all bad as most of M-E's history was a very sad tale.
|
|
|
GAndyalf
Doriath
Apr 11 2012, 2:27pm
Post #24 of 27
(2189 views)
Shortcut
|
dwarves preferring a far different lifestyle and mode of living than other M-e races.
Working in building trades and largely underground as opposed to the other free peoples that lived largely above ground and agrarian. If Tolkien features dwarves more then he must reconcile being against the wheels of technology (Saruman, Sauron, et al) yet have a race that essentially represents what technology there is in M-e into that worldview. Further, dwarves are far more private than any other race, not even teaching their language to anyone who wasn't a dwarf. It is highly likely that other races simply didn't have many tales to tell because the dwarves kept apart. There are hints of large numbers of dwarven troops in the battles against Morgoth (especially the Dagor Bragollach where it mentions them specifically as resisting the advance of the young dragons) and of course the Nauglamir and dragon-helm of Dor-Lomin (and yes, in the Fall of Doriath as well) but even in these instances it appears clear that the dwarves meant to keep apart from other races and so they wouldn't know enough about them to put into their songs and stories.
In this respect I think the dwarves of Tolkien bear a striking resemblance to the dwarves of Norse mythology - the finest craftsmen of their day but the stories the Norse record barely mention them because they remained so apart from Norse society.
"Be good, be careful, have fun, don't get arrested!"
---Marcia Michelle Alexander Hamilton, 7 Nov 1955 - 19 Nov 2009
|
|
|
Tolkien Forever
Mithlond
Apr 15 2012, 9:49am
Post #25 of 27
(2120 views)
Shortcut
|
This topic came up on another site and the guy who posted it would not budge, insisting stubbornly (and rather meanly) that Smaig MUST be from the War of Wrath due to the 'warriors of old statement'...
This proves nothing ~ to me, it seems like the oldtimer talking: "Im my day, we walked uphill both ways to school in the snow." Ya know?
The clincher here, aside from dragons 'reappearing' around TA 3500, is this:
'Smaug could never fit in a hole that size (the secret doorway), not after eating half the maidens of Dale" (paraphradse)
This statement, about the Dwarves knowing the secret passage being still secret because Smaug has Grown, sure seems to indicate he was young enough to continue growing, as only his head had to reach into the hole & heads don't really get fat.
What happened is two dragons escaped the War of Wrath (HoME says so), must've hid in the Withered Heath died &, but first laid some eggs which did a similar hibernation type thingy like Durin's Bane, only to come forth to life 5-6000 years later, or how ever many years after those two dragons died off. Perhaps they were there a thousand years into the Second Age & then died off?
Those were desolate parts in those days...
.
The Ultimate Tolkien Trivia Quiz: http://www.proprofs.com/quiz-school/story.php?title=so-you-want-to-be-tolkien-geek
|
|
|
|
|
1
